Religious Beliefs Thread

[EddieAngel 508]

I like religion and spirituality although I don't necessarily believe in it as it can help people get through tough times and gives good guidelines on how we should lives our. The fact that many people have taken this far too literally is a concern but the fault can't be laid at the foot of the church.

 

 

My main issue with Christianity has always been with creationism. How can you seriously ask people to believe the earth is 10,000 years yet we marvel at our landscape and scientific developments which prove this to be false on a daily basis? I won't go into too much but it's a seriously flawed plot to begin the basis of our entire existence.

 

There is a lot of debate over that number of 10,000 years. There have been quite a few wise Christian scientists who do not think that number is accurate, nor is it explicit. A day does not necessarily imply a 24 hour period at the beginning of creation. If you can find it Dr. J Vernon McGee has a great account of Genesis 1 in which he explains his thoughts on creation that mirror my own, that the process took a much longer period of time than we would call a day. It is certainly an interesting point of debate though. Obviously dinosaurs and primitive man, they do not factor into the Bible. They don't necessarily factor out either. Their is no account for every creature in creation anywhere in the Bible, and it does not explicitly run down time as we understand it.

 

I know it seems like splitting hairs, but the truth is every time they do research on the Big Bang or the age of the world and the universe they discover they were wrong last time. Ptolemaic science was once the accepted norm. As was phrenology. Scientists are always working at things and finding out they were wrong, so are Christians. Being a Christian does not necessarily mean you discount science, though the converse is not usually true. There is a lot of work that goes into the research of creation the same as there is that goes into evolution.

 

If you want to know more about it you have to do the legwork. What we hear most often is just for argument sake or to sensationalize something, the common arguments and news are generally never informative.

[EddieAngel 508]

I'm okay with the converse.

 

I'm also okay with sometimes good things happen and sometimes bad things happen and there may b no why.

 

I just say that bad things some times happen to good people, and they some times happen to me also.

[toddrhodes 98]

In regards to part 2, if atheists are right and there is no light at the end of the tunnel I suspect I won't be around to lament it and my reward will be the reward of having lived as good a life as I can and having been of service to others.

 

IF the atheists are right and they have the time and inclination to thumb their nose at me then I guess I will be at liberty to dispense with my misheld Christian beliefs and punch them in the face I think of it as a win-win.

 

I like the way you conduct yourself sir. Despite the fact we think and believe different things, I have a lot of respect for how thoroughly you have thought through your options and how you came to be who you are, spiritually. I appreciate the sentiments, and thank you!

 

Todd

[IrishGuy 178]

I have been debating on responding to this thread....and I am still not sure I should. Rather than providing detail (or saying things I know will offend) I will just say that I lost faith a long time ago, and I am at a point now where I no longer want it back.

[EddieAngel 508]

I like the way you conduct yourself sir. Despite the fact we think and believe different things, I have a lot of respect for how thoroughly you have thought through your options and how you came to be who you are, spiritually. I appreciate the sentiments, and thank you!

 

Todd

 

And I you. The world is chalked full of people who don't agree but get along anyways. Amazing how the internet is so not like that.

 

And thank you for your points and counterpoints, well thought out arguments.

[EddieAngel 508]

I have been debating on responding to this thread....and I am still not sure I should. Rather than providing detail (or saying things I know will offend) I will just say that I lost faith a long time ago, and I am at a point now where I no longer want it back.

 

No better place to vent than the internet, it is kind of like yelling into a giant rear end. You expect just an echo but you end up with poo on your face.

[NicePost 0]

The faith I have left is in spite of the Bible, not because of it. The Bible says whatever you want it to say. Support slavery? Check, the good book was used for that. Support the subordination of women? Check, that's covered too. Divorced? Well, you ain't gonna like what the good book says on that. I'll see your 'saved by faith, and not by works' and raise you with 'faith without works is dead.' Take your pick.

 

I can at least give the Catholic Church kudos for a lot more consistency, in that the CC sees the need for a single voice as to interpretation. There are thousands of Protestant sects who can only agree that they don't need the Catholic Church anymore. Beyond that, they can't seem to agree on much; such is the case when YOU or your Pastor get to interpret the Bible. I mean...what could possibly go wrong with letting everyone interpret the Bible as the Spirit guides them?

 

The literalist really confuses me, as to their logic. They're steadfast in the literal interpretation of the Bible...until they're hit with something like, 'and then He broke the bread and said, take this bread and eat it, for this is REAL food; take this and drink, for this is my blood and is REAL drink.' The literalist usually swallows hard at this point and...you guessed it, they then proceed to INTERPRET what is REALLY being said here. Of course this is exactly the opposite of the definition of literal, but then why should Logic get in the way of supporting your chosen religion.

 

Yes, I'm exasperated, because I don't think the Catholic Church has both oars in the water either, so this wasn't a support of Catholicism as much as one of endless examples of reading in to the Bible whatever the heck you want, and usually to support an already held belief. I do believe something's out there, and it may be Jesus, but He really needed to appoint a better editor.

[EddieAngel 508]

The faith I have left is in spite of the Bible, not because of it. The Bible says whatever you want it to say. Support slavery? Check, the good book was used for that. Support the subordination of women? Check, that's covered too. Divorced? Well, you ain't gonna like what the good book says on that. I'll see your 'saved by faith, and not by works' and raise you with 'faith without works is dead.' Take your pick.

 

I can at least give the Catholic Church kudos for a lot more consistency, in that the CC sees the need for a single voice as to interpretation. There are thousands of Protestant sects who can only agree that they don't need the Catholic Church anymore. Beyond that, they can't seem to agree on much; such is the case when YOU or your Pastor get to interpret the Bible. I mean...what could possibly go wrong with letting everyone interpret the Bible as the Spirit guides them?

 

The literalist really confuses me, as to their logic. They're steadfast in the literal interpretation of the Bible...until they're hit with something like, 'and then He broke the bread and said, take this bread and eat it, for this is REAL food; take this and drink, for this is my blood and is REAL drink.' The literalist usually swallows hard at this point and...you guessed it, they then proceed to INTERPRET what is REALLY being said here. Of course this is exactly the opposite of the definition of literal, but then why should Logic get in the way of supporting your chosen religion.

 

Yes, I'm exasperated, because I don't think the Catholic Church has both oars in the water either, so this wasn't a support of Catholicism as much as one of endless examples of reading in to the Bible whatever the heck you want, and usually to support an already held belief. I do believe something's out there, and it may be Jesus, but He really needed to appoint a better editor.

 

Using the Bible to promote slavery or polygomy or any such thing is silliness. Slavery never was a religious issue, it was an economical issue and no one used the Bible to support it but rather ignored it in favor of profit. The anti-slavery movement in the US is littered with Christians, some of whom gave their lives as martyrs to help free the slaves. Still, while we are here on Earth nothing is without corruptibility, that is why being a literalist alone is not enough. If I put a piece of dog poop on the sidewalk with a sign in front of it that said fudge would you eat it?

 

People believe and interpret things differently and baptists do disagree with protestants, who disagree with Luterans, who disagree with Episcopaleans and on and on and on. But that is not a result of the Bible, that is human nature. There were sects with Judaism as well, Saducees, Pharisees, messianic Jews, and so on. Within Islam there are militant islamics, and there are conservative islamics, western types I suppose. There are multiple sects of Buddhism. I don't enough about Hinduism to say that is the case but I suspect there is.

 

As a protestant or a simple non-denominational Christian, I take communion as Catholics do. Jesus says to take communion in remembrance of his body and blood, which he gave up for us. I have never understood people's fixation or need to be literal when so much of Jesus's teaching was in parable or allegory. Why pick on transfiguration?

 

We are saved by faith and not by works but faith without works is dead. I find that to be a logical connection and see no conflict. If you read the Bible when Jesus heals people or when people are converted there is generally a command. Go forth and make disciples. Go forth and sin no more. Jesus says to care for widows and orphans, he says to take care of the poor, he says that anyone who gives food and water to the least is doing it as unto him.

 

People pick on the Bible and anger and pick and choose what they think is hypocritical, or incompatible, grapple onto little bits legalistically. To what end? If your faith is in spite of the Bible then I am sorry that I have interpreted it so differently from you. But I am glad that you were able to read the Bible and then come to a conclusion based off of what you saw there, at least you took the time and effort to gain faith through understanding.

 

Faith without understanding is just ignorance.

[NicePost 0]

I like your style Eddie and can't disagree with your rationale. If more Christians were like you then the pews would be full. BTW, are you Irish? Because, as the saying goes, an Irishman can tell a man to go to hell in such a way as to make the man look forward to the trip.

[EddieAngel 508]

I like your style Eddie and can't disagree with your rationale. If more Christians were like you then the pews would be full. BTW, are you Irish? Because, as the saying goes, an Irishman can tell a man to go to hell in such a way as to make the man look forward to the trip.

 

I am Irish and I am fraught with hypocrisy and bad manners and all other manner of problems, part of being human. But I do my research and make sure I have an answer that doesn't sound stupid. When someone's answers about Jesus sound about the same as Santa only a five year old can believe it

 

Thanks for the dialogue, though, it is good to know what others think and believe.

[jessemoore97 1,287]

Faith without understanding is just ignorance.

 

But is that really so bad? Young children for example, are innocents, and therefore are unable to understand their faith. Do they need all the over-thinking of the material at hand to become a better Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc?

 

Speaking of children that's another area that really gets me up at arms about religion. Say for a moment that the Christian way is the correct path(hypothetically). Young children or babies who happen to have been born to parents of another faith don't go to Heaven? Or if you don't Baptize your infant (as a Christian) they may not go to Heaven either?

 

These are pretty messed up concepts IMO. And at one time or another it was accepted teaching, or may still be in some places I don't know. This ties into the understanding part, and who's understanding/interpretation are we talking about? Mine, yours, the organization?

 

I have faith in many things spiritually. I do not understand them, and I question my understanding as well as just about anyone else's version also.

[EddieAngel 508]

But is that really so bad? Young children for example, are innocents, and therefore are unable to understand their faith. Do they need all the over-thinking of the material at hand to become a better Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc?

 

Speaking of children that's another area that really gets me up at arms about religion. Say for a moment that the Christian way is the correct path(hypothetically). Young children or babies who happen to have been born to parents of another faith don't go to Heaven? Or if you don't Baptize your infant (as a Christian) they may not go to Heaven either?

 

These are pretty messed up concepts IMO. And at one time or another it was accepted teaching, or may still be in some places I don't know. This ties into the understanding part, and who's understanding/interpretation are we talking about? Mine, yours, the organization?

 

I have faith in many things spiritually. I do not understand them, and I question my understanding as well as just about anyone else's version also.

 

Those are good questions, let me field them as well as I can:

 

1. While it is not stated explicitly in the Bible, it is implied that babies go to Heaven. Jesus speaks of his love for the children in the book of Matthew, and David laments the loss of his unborn child in 2 Samuel but knows he will see him in heaven. There is enough evidence in doctrine to where this is generally and accepted fact of all Christian sects, seldom do you find disagreement.

 

2. Baptism: Baptism is generally something that a person does on their own, at least in Christianity. A child can be ceremoniously dedicated (See: Dedication) to the Lord when they are young (too young to fully accept Jesus with understanding) but the ceremony of Baptism that commemorates the death and resurrection is a personal choice someone makes. The Bible never says you have to be baptized to go to Heaven.

 

3. Ignorance: I don't think ignorance is ever a good thing. If you are not armed with knowledge you are at a disadvantage against someone who is. They can take advantage of you, they can use you, and they can bend you to their own ends. This is true of ALL religious people, there are bad ones out there in every religion.

 

That said, my viewpoints are my own and are hardly doctrine. I do my best to teach my children the right things to do in my actions. I pray with them, I answer their questions, and I take them to Church. I talk to them and ask them questions to see what they know, what they believe, and what they understand. I don't teach them about religion outright, I don't open the Bible and tell them how they should live their lives though I do read them Bible stories. But I leave the teaching to teachers, people more knowledgeable and better qualified that me.

 

I do not go out of my way to teach or instruct others on how to live their lives. I am happy to answer what questions I can, give my testimony, and share my faith, but I am ill suited to instruction.

[EddieAngel 508]

Hey gabe, thanks for jumping in. What about horrible things that happen that don't involve free will/choice?

 

An example would be when parents truly forget that their child is still in the car only to discover hours later that they've died? No I'll intent, no malice, just a horrible mistake resulting in a horribly painful death for an innocent child.

 

How am I supposed to just accept that an omnipotent god can allow that to happen?

 

Not to bring up an old part of this post, but I did want to touch on this because it causes me a ton of grief. I have read all of those posts about parents leaving their children in the car accidentally and it has been weighing on me quite a bit, sapping away my faith in humanity. At times I read them and ask God why. I ask why he let it happen. I don't get an answer either.

 

That said, as a parent I am afraid that I just can't bend my mind to the point where I see anyone leaving their child in the car accidentally for 10 hours. You can't accidentally leave a 10 month old in the car for 10 hours. They require too much attention and too much work. They require feeding, changing, love, and tons of other things. If I don't see my 21 month old for about three minutes I go looking because he is up to no good. When my kids were that age they would go 3 hours tops napping, and that took quite a bit of effort to get them there.

 

All this stuff kind of stems from us as people saying "Well if I was God I wouldn't let that happen." Honestly, if I was God I would never create man knowing the terrible things we are capable of and often do to one another. But he did. I am not sure why, I suppose it speaks to his desire to love and be loved but I don't know. I know that if I could have a hundred kids and give them all the love, support, and nurturing they need I would because I love my kids. If my kids were entirely driven to my will I don't think I would love them the same. If they were compelled to do what I want them to do the love they feel for me would be artificial.

 

Everything trails back to us having free will. Even accidents are a result of free choice. We are not on train tracks and some times our choices lead us into dangerous places. A parent who accidentally leaves their kid in the car for 10 hours has killed their child. The child did not die in an accident. When you have kids you are responsible for their care, there exists no excuse that I can think of aside from your own death to explain why you would forget about your child.

 

Damn, I am getting steamed just thinking about this again. Some times it is someone else's choice that kills you, that is the thing of it. It doesn't have to be a malicious choice, it is just a choice.

[SDIrishFan 607]

Not to bring up an old part of this post, but I did want to touch on this because it causes me a ton of grief. I have read all of those posts about parents leaving their children in the car accidentally and it has been weighing on me quite a bit, sapping away my faith in humanity. At times I read them and ask God why. I ask why he let it happen. I don't get an answer either.

 

That said, as a parent I am afraid that I just can't bend my mind to the point where I see anyone leaving their child in the car accidentally for 10 hours. You can't accidentally leave a 10 month old in the car for 10 hours. They require too much attention and too much work. They require feeding, changing, love, and tons of other things. If I don't see my 21 month old for about three minutes I go looking because he is up to no good. When my kids were that age they would go 3 hours tops napping, and that took quite a bit of effort to get them there.

 

All this stuff kind of stems from us as people saying "Well if I was God I wouldn't let that happen." Honestly, if I was God I would never create man knowing the terrible things we are capable of and often do to one another. But he did. I am not sure why, I suppose it speaks to his desire to love and be loved but I don't know. I know that if I could have a hundred kids and give them all the love, support, and nurturing they need I would because I love my kids. If my kids were entirely driven to my will I don't think I would love them the same. If they were compelled to do what I want them to do the love they feel for me would be artificial.

 

Everything trails back to us having free will. Even accidents are a result of free choice. We are not on train tracks and some times our choices lead us into dangerous places. A parent who accidentally leaves their kid in the car for 10 hours has killed their child. The child did not die in an accident. When you have kids you are responsible for their care, there exists no excuse that I can think of aside from your own death to explain why you would forget about your child.

 

Damn, I am getting steamed just thinking about this again. Some times it is someone else's choice that kills you, that is the thing of it. It doesn't have to be a malicious choice, it is just a choice.

 

As a parent of two youngchildren, this was VERY tough to read. But it demonstrates just how easy it is.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html

[EddieAngel 508]

As a parent of two youngchildren, this was VERY tough to read. But it demonstrates just how easy it is.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html

 

If I only had one maybe it would be different. My children are such a big part of my life it is hard to imagine just forgetting I have one in the car, but I can suspend disbelief and my heart breaks for the family. I have thought about it and I am not sure I could live with myself if I was responsible for something like that.

 

Sad stuff. The news is bad, it is near enough to sap the faith from anyone really. Heartbreaking story.

[SDIrishFan 607]

If I only had one maybe it would be different. My children are such a big part of my life it is hard to imagine just forgetting I have one in the car, but I can suspend disbelief and my heart breaks for the family. I have thought about it and I am not sure I could live with myself if I was responsible for something like that.

 

Sad stuff. The news is bad, it is near enough to sap the faith from anyone really. Heartbreaking story.

 

I agree, not sure how you go on after something like that.

 

What's sad is there are devices out there to prevent it, but "aren't marketable"

[EddieAngel 508]

I agree, not sure how you go on after something like that.

 

What's sad is there are devices out there to prevent it, but "aren't marketable"

 

I am not sure I understand why it has become such a big issue lately, it just seems odd. There have been three instances of this making big news in the past three months I think?

 

It is a higher occurrence rate or is it just media concentration without any increase in actual occurrence?

[SDIrishFan 607]

I am not sure I understand why it has become such a big issue lately, it just seems odd. There have been three instances of this making big news in the past three months I think?

 

It is a higher occurrence rate or is it just media concentration without any increase in actual occurrence?

 

It's become a bigger deal after the case in Georgia what it appears the father did it deliberately. To think someone is capable of doing that is scary and obviously the news has latched onto that.

 

The Washington post article i posted was from 2009, so it has been in the news. And, I can't remember the exact number, but I want to say it happens a couple dozen times a year.

[LasVegasIrish 0]

But is that really so bad? Young children for example, are innocents, and therefore are unable to understand their faith. Do they need all the over-thinking of the material at hand to become a better Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc?

 

Speaking of children that's another area that really gets me up at arms about religion. Say for a moment that the Christian way is the correct path(hypothetically). Young children or babies who happen to have been born to parents of another faith don't go to Heaven? Or if you don't Baptize your infant (as a Christian) they may not go to Heaven either?

 

These are pretty messed up concepts IMO. And at one time or another it was accepted teaching, or may still be in some places I don't know. This ties into the understanding part, and who's understanding/interpretation are we talking about? Mine, yours, the organization?

 

I have faith in many things spiritually. I do not understand them, and I question my understanding as well as just about anyone else's version also.

 

Jesse, I'm not sure if you saw my post or not, but I touched on this. I do not believe God punishes ignorance. We were given free will on Earth to choose and decide our own path. Not everyone is Christian, and who am I to persecute someone for believing something different? I personally believe that at the time we come face to face with God we are given a choice to live eternally with him, because that is what he wants. And I don't think many people turn that down, when faced with the truth. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a relationship with God during their human life, but there would be no need for ministry if everyone believed the same thing, without capability of questioning or second thoughts.

 

These are my personal views, and I understand many Christians do not think this way. I just feel that if God is this unconditional loving being as we all make him out to be, he will not turn people away that desire him, no matter the point in time.

Edited August 8, 2014 by LasVegasIrish

[OKCIrish99 3]

I joined the Catholic Church recently and have never felt better with my faith, my relationship with God, and myself as a person. The Nicene Creed perfectly sums up my faith. Quite simply, I am confident that God exists, that he sent his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins, and gives us the OPPORTUNITY to experience eternal life with him. I believe in heaven, hell, and purgatory. Christ discussed heaven and hell in his teachings, and these places are far from fiction. There have been numerous documented after death experiences of people who went to heaven and hell and came back to life physically.

 

To the atheists/agnostics a few questions:

 

1) Can you please explain to me your thoughts on how Earth originated and how it's located perfectly for human life to exist? Any closer, we'd burn to death. Any further away, we'd freeze to death.

2) What are your thoughts on why Christ existed and lived? There has been numerous historical evidence supporting his baptism, life and teachings, crucifixion, and resurrection.

3) Why do feel 12 normal men (the disciples) completely devoted their lives to one man and one cause and ultimately die for this cause?

4) How do you feel that merely 12 men successfully spread Christ's teaching and church to millions beginning the largest religion to ever men? Again 12 to 1,000,000+ is quite the ratio. Do you think that is even possible today?

5) What are your thoughts on Marian apparitions (Virgin Mary) throughout the world the last couple hundred years?

 

Places like Mexico, France, Yugoslavia, Portugal, Belgium, Japan, Egypt, Nicaragua, Spain, and even Wisconsin. Almost all of these apparitions have been approved as authentic by the Catholic Church. These approvals aren't handed out unless absolutely, unequivocally true and authentic. Regarding the Egyptian (Zeitoun) apparition, the president of Egypt at the time (Gamal Abdel Nassar) personally attested to witnessing the apparition. Throughout these apparitions, the Virgin Mary's message is simple and consistent, put your faith in her son eternally. That's why she's coming here. God, Christ, and Mary want everyone here to be saved. He is still giving everyone an opportunity. Please take advantage of this opportunity before it's too late.