Religious Beliefs Thread

[SDIrishFan 607]

With the almost certainty that this thread will turn into a $hitshow sooner rather than later (meaning I'll have to be the one who locks and deletes it), I proceed anyway.

 

Here's the deal, for about the past year or two, I've really struggled with the idea of religion, God, and what I believe and don't believe. I've done lots of thinking, reading and listening from all sorts of people, experts, Joe Blows and am no closer to an answer.

 

So, what I'm asking, if you're willing, is to share what you believe in and why. I'm not interested in you telling me what I, or anyone else, should believe in. I'm not interested in arguing over who's right or who's wrong. I'm not interested in started a personal attack thread and if that's what it turns into I'll lock it.

 

Ready, go.

Edited July 30, 2018 by SDIrishFan

[EddieAngel 508]

With the almost certainty that this thread will turn into a $hitshow sooner rather than later (meaning I'll have to be the one who locks and deletes it), I proceed anyway.

 

Here's the deal, for about the past year or two, I've really struggled with the idea of religion, God, and what I believe and don't believe. I've done lots of thinking, reading and listening from all sorts of people, experts, Joe Blows and the like and so far have really only ruled one thing out (I don't believe the literal interpretation of the bible).

 

So, what I'm asking, if you're willing, is to share what you believe in and why. I'm not interested in you telling me what I, or anyone else, should believe in. I'm not interested in arguing over who's right or who's wrong. I'm not interested in started a personal attack thread and if that's what it turns into I'll lock it.

 

Ready, go.

 

I am a conservative right wing Christian, though I suppose my political views are not super relevant, they do lend some credence to matters. I grew up in a non-religious probably agnostic leaning home. Never went to church, but I always had a feeling that something was not right in the world. Not that I needed help with something but more like I was missing a piece of the puzzle, not being told something.

 

Fast forward many years, I explored different spiritual ideas including Buddhism, atheism, agnosticism, and the basic idea that everyone goes to Heaven. Each of them was unsatisfying, not because I needed something from religion but because each was too self serving and convenient. The idea of karma never sat well with me because it states that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people... eventually. The ultimate cop out. It would be like me getting run over by chance and someone saying that it was cosmic retribution for the gum I stole when I was six. Mind you, there is more to karma and Buddhism that that, it turns out that it just didn't appear truthful to me.

 

Under the volition of my wife to be (at the time) I went to church a handful of times and while I didn't find any answers straight out of the gate, I slowly gained understanding. It is not brainwashing and it hasn't fully reached the deepest recesses of my brain but I came to accept the salvation of Jesus because I knew in my heart that what the Bible says is true. I was a long running skeptic, cynic, bordering on hostility prior to this. I always said "Christians do good things because they think God is watching when they should just be doing good things because it is the right thing to do." Turns out I was wrong, I am sure that there are many Christians, who like the Pharisees, do good things and say look at me, look at me, but there are 100 for everyone of those, or maybe only 1 for every 100 of those, who does the right thing quietly without being asked and without asking for credit because they have the love for their fellow man that Jesus had for us when he was crucified.

 

I still wrestle with doubt at times, I still worry about making the right decision about whether everything will simply be done when I die, but it does not occupy much of my time and the majority of the time when I don't let fear consume me I feel comfortable in knowing that I have no need to fear death. Even better, I see the love of Christ in my kids and see what a difference it makes in who they are. I have seen miracles in my life. I have not seen and may never see sight restored to the blind, healing for the crippled, etc... but I have seen the love of Christ heal families, relationships, and more. I have seen the change that has been wrought in my life through that love, a transformation in who I am as a person and what my priorities are.

 

I had a friend once, when I was a new Christian, who I asked why he didn't believe when everything seemed so obvious to me. He told me that he was afraid of what he would miss out on in life by living a Christian life. In a way he was right, there are sacrifices to be made, but those things I have given up to follow the Lord are things I should not have been engaging in to begin with, so my loss is my gain.

 

I can't tell anyone else what to believe nor could I properly explain something in writing that could convey the true magnitude of my decision to follow Christ and what he has done for me, which is sad because if you did know me it would be quite the testimony, though I have lost a lot of friends along the way. Living without faith is a sad lonely way to live. And I was ok with it, I don't need to live my life reassured that there is something after death, my life is pretty good as it is. I have been given a lovely wife and three beautiful healthy kids. If something happens to them I will be thankful for what I have had and the blessings I have received. It is not always easy to praise when times are tough, and they are tough, but I do see the hand of God in my daily life whenever I pull my head out of my butt long enough to look.

 

But then, that is who I am and that is not who everyone is. I would most certainly encourage you to pursue more knowledge, even if it is only to prove that what you don't believe is right. Epic by John Eldredge is a great book and a short read that helped me to have a better understanding of God in a way that made sense to me. Also, Travelling Light by Max Lucado. If you are interested I would be happy to send you some books if you want to PM your address. Or not, that is ok too.

 

Just my 2c

[LasVegasIrish 0]

SD,

 

Thank you for being brave enough to start a thread like this. Religion is not the easiest thing to talk about.

 

Here I go:

 

I'm 21 years old, and have grown up in a faith driven Christian household. My dad grew up Catholic and my mom Protestant, in fact my Dad was a brother for a number of years and almost became a Priest. My faith is something I take very seriously, and it has led me through many awesome journeys.

 

I consider myself a child of God; nothing more, nothing less. I believe that Jesus died for mine and everyone else's sins, and that we have been given free will to choose if we want a relationship with him or not. I believe that whoever accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior will rest in paradise, but I also believe that not everyone is given the same chance to do that.

 

For instance, a person born in an Islamic country will not have the same upbringing as someone as myself. I do not think God punishes those who reject him out of ignorance. When we die, we meet God face to face and the decision is ours.

 

There are a number of things I can post on this topic, but I will it to this for now.

[SDIrishFan 607]

 

 

 

 

 

But then, that is who I am and that is not who everyone is. I would most certainly encourage you to pursue more knowledge, even if it is only to prove that what you don't believe is right. Epic by John Eldredge is a great book and a short read that helped me to have a better understanding of God in a way that made sense to me. Also, Travelling Light by Max Lucado. If you are interested I would be happy to send you some books if you want to PM your address. Or not, that is ok too.

 

Just my 2c

 

Eddie, thank you for sharing.

 

Specific to the bold point above, I feel this thread was one way of doing that. I'm hoping the sum of knowledge attained through all people, whether on a message board, or in direct contact, will ultimately lead to me one day coming to an answer.

 

So far, one of the things that's frustrated me in this "quest" is people who claim to be Christian but have never self-analyzed their beliefs. They are religious because their parents were, they went to church, and they somehow feel society thinks they should be religious.

 

However, when you ask them to explain to you why, their beliefs often crumble with the simplest of questions. Not for proving whose right or wrong but for coming to a conclusion that is unwavering.

 

Again, thank you for sharing.

[SDIrishFan 607]

SD,

 

Thank you for being brave enough to start a thread like this. Religion is not the easiest thing to talk about.

 

Here I go:

 

I'm 21 years old, and have grown up in a faith driven Christian household. My dad grew up Catholic and my mom Protestant, in fact my Dad was a brother for a number of years and almost became a Priest. My faith is something I take very seriously, and it has led me through many awesome journeys.

 

I consider myself a child of God; nothing more, nothing less. I believe that Jesus died for mine and everyone else's sins, and that we have been given free will to choose if we want a relationship with him or not. I believe that whoever accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior will rest in paradise, but I also believe that not everyone is given the same chance to do that.

 

For instance, a person born in an Islamic country will not have the same upbringing as someone as myself. I do not think God punishes those who reject him out of ignorance. When we die, we meet God face to face and the decision is ours.

 

There are a number of things I can post on this topic, but I will it to this for now.

 

Thanks LVI. Along the lines of one of the things you said about other believes or other religions, I was in Church this last Sunday and the pastor made a declaration that didn't sit well with me.

 

He said, "good deeds done without an acceptance of God are not good deeds at all." So, I'm to believe that 70% of the world is incapable of doing good deeds simply because they don't believe in a Christian God?

 

Why are good and bad solely determined by religion? Can't good things be done for no other reason than it's the good thing to do?

 

These are the things I struggle with.

[EddieAngel 508]

Eddie, thank you for sharing.

 

Specific to the bold point above, I feel this thread was one way of doing that. I'm hoping the sum of knowledge attained through all people, whether on a message board, or in direct contact, will ultimately lead to me one day coming to an answer.

 

So far, one of the things that's frustrated me in this "quest" is people who claim to be Christian but have never self-analyzed their beliefs. They are religious because their parents were, they went to church, and they somehow feel society thinks they should be religious.

 

However, when you ask them to explain to you why, their beliefs often crumble with the simplest of questions. Not for proving whose right or wrong but for coming to a conclusion that is unwavering.

 

Again, thank you for sharing.

 

1 Peter 3:15 (I had to look the scripture up, mind you) states that we, as Christians, should be prepared to give a reason for our faith with gentleness and respect (Paraphrased). Some people are uneducated, some people are afraid, people think they have to have a good answer, an intellectual answer, or are afraid to be asked questions that will either disrupt their own faith or make them look ignorant.

 

There are some rabbit holes of religion that always end up being answered by saying: You just have to have faith because there is no certainty on this side of the grave. But there is a myriad of scientific evidence supporting many of the Christian beliefs for those who are inclined to do the legwork.

 

There is a specific parable that Jesus tells commonly referred to as the parable of the planter. While I won't go into the whole thing, the relevant piece refers to some Christians as seeds planted in rocky soil. They grow fast but then wilt in the hot sun because they don't have deep roots. In the same way many Christians grasp onto faith quickly and then fall apart when questioned. A lot of people see Christianity as an answer and I would be misleading you if I did not tell you that a lot of people come to faith as a last resort. There are a lot of stories of people who find God when they are on their last leg and they may genuinely be transformed, saved, whatever, or they may just be grasping at straws. There are a lot of people who give up.

 

I go through seasons where I feel less connected, it can be a bit rocky, but it happens to anyone in life, in faith and in other relationships. The questions and the hang ups you have, the ways that Christians and Christianity have put you off are not only common but epidemic. While it might seem self serving as a Christian to say this, when in doubt throw up a prayer and see what happens.

 

Remember one thing though, faith is belief in the absence of proof. This means that even the most devout Christians can experience a nagging suspicion or fear that they (we) are wrong. I wrestle with it. I also wrestle with some of the things you do. How can that person call themselves a Christian and be such a douche? How come that person who is not a good person gets this and I don't? How come those bad people who kill there kids go free without reprisal and end up with a book deal? Where's the justice? Not always easy.

[VCDomer 68]

1 Peter 3:15 (I had to look the scripture up, mind you) states that we, as Christians, should be prepared to give a reason for our faith with gentleness and respect (Paraphrased). Some people are uneducated, some people are afraid, people think they have to have a good answer, an intellectual answer, or are afraid to be asked questions that will either disrupt their own faith or make them look ignorant.

 

There are some rabbit holes of religion that always end up being answered by saying: You just have to have faith because there is no certainty on this side of the grave. But there is a myriad of scientific evidence supporting many of the Christian beliefs for those who are inclined to do the legwork.

 

There is a specific parable that Jesus tells commonly referred to as the parable of the planter. While I won't go into the whole thing, the relevant piece refers to some Christians as seeds planted in rocky soil. They grow fast but then wilt in the hot sun because they don't have deep roots. In the same way many Christians grasp onto faith quickly and then fall apart when questioned. A lot of people see Christianity as an answer and I would be misleading you if I did not tell you that a lot of people come to faith as a last resort. There are a lot of stories of people who find God when they are on their last leg and they may genuinely be transformed, saved, whatever, or they may just be grasping at straws. There are a lot of people who give up.

 

I go through seasons where I feel less connected, it can be a bit rocky, but it happens to anyone in life, in faith and in other relationships. The questions and the hang ups you have, the ways that Christians and Christianity have put you off are not only common but epidemic. While it might seem self serving as a Christian to say this, when in doubt throw up a prayer and see what happens.

 

Remember one thing though, faith is belief in the absence of proof. This means that even the most devout Christians can experience a nagging suspicion or fear that they (we) are wrong. I wrestle with it. I also wrestle with some of the things you do. How can that person call themselves a Christian and be such a douche? How come that person who is not a good person gets this and I don't? How come those bad people who kill there kids go free without reprisal and end up with a book deal? Where's the justice? Not always easy.

 

Check out "A case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. He was an atheist and a news paper writer who did research on the scriptures to determine their accuracy. historian. Well put Eddie.

[jessemoore97 1,287]

Good topic!

 

I grew up in a Lutheran family. My mother's side never really went to Church because when my grandfather was in his teens his father hung himself. Needless to say the Catholic church the family belonged to more or less turned their back on the family. Therefore my mother didn't really know church until she met my dad and was Baptized the same day I was as an infant. This event when I was told about it kind of helped to frame organized religion in some aspects for me.

 

I still consider myself Christian, and Lutheran in my upbringing in religion. However I haven't gone to church in some time. I guess being a police officer for 16 years has helped to foster the cynic in me with regard to humanity and organized religion. I also remember similar feelings of, "what am I not being told". Why as a Christian are we not all worshiping under the same sets of beliefs instead of the fracturing of various sects and faiths? It didn't make sense to me why my pastor said I had to believe this set of rules and beliefs and that a friend of mine's pastor/priest was outright wrong because he was say Methodist or Baptist.

 

Why are there literally hundreds of interpretations of the Bible out there? And everyone has their own spin on them. Why are only certain texts considered cannon, while others didn't make the cut? How can one divinely inspired religious text/message be accepted while another is considered heretical? Power and corruption methinks. Knowledge is power and he who controls it has the power, and can dispense whatever message they want thereby controlling followers etc.

 

Personally, I believe that everyone has to embark on their own spiritual journey that's unique to them. Whatever that entails is up to each individual. Church goer or not, this religion or that, believer or non-believer. Let the individual decide. There are many times I still pray, because it makes me feel better as a way of coping with loss or tragedy and when good things occasionally happen to me.

 

There are so many questions that I'll never have answers for. There is so much information about mankind, religion, etc that has been lost to antiquity that I would really love to know. Science nor religion is ever going to be able to adequately explain everything to me no matter how hard they try. But I keep my mind open to the possibility of many different things. I could go on and on obviously.

Edited August 5, 2014 by jessemoore97

[jessemoore97 1,287]

Thanks LVI. Along the lines of one of the things you said about other believes or other religions, I was in Church this last Sunday and the pastor made a declaration that didn't sit well with me.

 

He said, "good deeds done without an acceptance of God are not good deeds at all." So, I'm to believe that 70% of the world is incapable of doing good deeds simply because they don't believe in a Christian God?

 

Why are good and bad solely determined by religion? Can't good things be done for no other reason than it's the good thing to do?

 

These are the things I struggle with.

 

I remember in Jr High having to go to Communion classes, which was taught by our pastor. I remember the class discussing various examples of how could a good person who has never done a thing wrong in their life be denied Heaven. And the usual answer was something like that the person should've been raised a Christian and know Christ. We'd respond back saying that there was no church in that part of the world for them to learn. And the response was to the effect of the man's ancestors knew about God and chose to go a different path away from the true God thereby damning him.

 

Then we'd ask some absurd question like what if the man had been stranded on a desert island and raised by animals or some such thing since he was very young and had never heard of God, religion, etc. I can't remember his response, other than I think to shut us down on the what if questions. Needless to say I certainly wasn't satisfied with some of the answers. I think I was more put off by the fact that a person was trying to answer for God and what would or wouldn't happen, based off texts written by other men who are trying to explain God's thought process.

[LasVegasIrish 0]

Thanks LVI. Along the lines of one of the things you said about other believes or other religions, I was in Church this last Sunday and the pastor made a declaration that didn't sit well with me.

 

He said, "good deeds done without an acceptance of God are not good deeds at all." So, I'm to believe that 70% of the world is incapable of doing good deeds simply because they don't believe in a Christian God?

 

Why are good and bad solely determined by religion? Can't good things be done for no other reason than it's the good thing to do?

 

These are the things I struggle with.

 

I'm with you on that. There are plenty of good people in this world who are not Christian. Statements like the one the pastor made are the type of statements that bug most Christians.

[SDIrishFan 607]

Full disclosure, my interest generally peaks with the creationism/intelligent design vs. bing bang/evolution argument. For whatever reason I'm drawn more to the science and nature discussion as opposed to the spiritual understand concepts.

 

However, another thing that irked me in church was he was talking about Jesus being condemned to crucifixion and how all these ppl could have stopped it (Pilate, herad, the Romans, the soldiers, etc.) but, this was gods plan that had been preordained for his son Jesus.

 

But, to me, the flies directly in the face of "free will". These p couldn't stop it because god didn't allow it. So I don't get how there's gods plan and free will? They would seem to be mutually exclusive.

[ndmike88 136]

The older I get the more I am questioning the whole idea of religion.

[DTCBND03 0]

The older I get the more I am questioning the whole idea of religion.

 

Me too. I'm Catholic and I'm with SDIrishFan in that I've been questioning religion and God a whole lot in the past few years. I never go to church anymore...mostly due to the following:

 

1 - science continues to explain the world but still has yet to explain the beginning of the world. I slightly believe in God only because I can't understand how something can come from nothing. But i know the Bible is not literal cause no way Moses lived 120 yrs or Noah had an ark with 2 of each animal. These are just fables to help us understand the world.

 

2 - some catholic church rules don't make sense. it's obvious most gay people are born that way but catholic church says its a sin. now that church is wrong that opens a can of worms and can it be wrong about other rules?

 

3 - Religion is by region. I'm catholic cause I was born to Catholic fam. If i was born in India i would be Hindu...in Iraq I would be muslim...in Israel I would be Jewish. I'm starting to believe religions are like languages. No right/wrong...just a way for us to communicate and make sense of what we don't understand.

[SDIrishFan 607]

Also the more I read on how the New Testament came to be, when the were written and how many times the bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted by kings and rulers to suit their political aspirations, the more I can't grasp how it can be remotely accurate.

 

Here's one of my other things, I feel like religion says the know the answer of how we came to be from point a to point b and so on.

 

At least science says, look, this is how we understand it now, there's lots of stuff we don't understand but we are working on it. We believe the Big Bang to be true but we don't know the catalyst. We don't have all the links in the evolutionary chain but were working on it.

 

I've been fascinated with Neil degrade Tyson and Christopher hitchens of late .

Edited August 6, 2014 by SDIrishFan

[toddrhodes 98]

I was born into a Catholic family, went to church as a child until I was 13, and went to Catholic parochial school (Corpus Christi, for the locals). I don't have an exact moment in time that I determined it wasn't for me, but I always felt our pastor was a snake oil salesman and I wasn't buying what he was selling. I saw some very devout Catholics do some very un-Catholic things, sometimes even in the name of the church, and that was probably the final straw.

 

As I got to high school, I basically determined that if I was a good person, an honest person, and helped my neighbor whenever possible, how can that be held against me? I do feel as if the Catholic church is quite hypocritical - they deny and rail against contraception, but also rail against abortion. I can see the cause for fighting against the latter, but wouldn't a show of support for the former also help their cause against abortion? It is an institution which openly supports the discrimination of other people, supposed "God's children." I cannot get down with that.

 

The thing is, the extreme right-wingers are really making it hard for the average, dutiful Christian/Catholic to be productive in their faith these days. Those who speak of rape as being somehow God's will, and who openly mock others in front of huge audiences, they are today's face of religion because they are the loudest and receive the most attention in the media - liberal, social, or otherwise. I think we are seeing a time where many young people don't want to associate with anything of that sort so they distance themselves, which makes those extreme personalities just shout louder. It's unnerving, and maybe I'm off-base, but that's how I see things.

 

I am hopeful the new Pope can effect some meaningful change across Christianity. I don't know if he will, but despite the fact I do not identify as a religious person, I am pulling for him and all of the good, faithful people I know.

 

And lastly, I think what DTCBND said above in point #3 is a great way of putting it. There are hundreds of religions on this planet. I am of the mind that all of these religions are meaningful to those who practice them and if those religions provide their practitioners solace, comfort, and hope? Good for them. It is when those religions clash and innocent people lose their lives over something which can only be speculated against that I think all of them are missing the point they so passionately fight for.

 

Great discussion, OP!

[ND3 0]

I was raised in a Catholic household, but I have been more and more turned off from religion in the last decade or so. I suppose I would consider myself an atheist.

 

Nearly every religion in the history of the world (with some exceptions) has followed one basic principle: If you don't believe in this religion, you go to our version of hell. However, religions evolve. So if you look at the maybe 100 billion people that ever lived, very few of them would have lived in a time of the "correct" religion, meaning almost everyone in the history of the world is in hell because they believed in the wrong thing. Even if we call Judaism/Christianity the correct religion, that faith itself has evolved so much that it's hardly recognizable anymore. God got pissed at the Israelites for the golden calf statue in the desert, but Notre Dame has a statue of Knute Rockne, among others. How is this different? Are we worshipping the false god Rockne? What if that's something God is really nitpicky about and it sends us all to hell?

 

My point is uncertainty. I've never experienced anything that has made me believe in any religion. Everything is either anecdotal or something that I feel is scientifically solvable. You can pick and choose scientific evidence to support whatever you want. I don't think Christianity is anymore reasonable than ancient Greek religions, Native American religions, Buddhism, or anything else. To take it a step further, I don't understand how one can be a Christian and choose to not take the Bible literally... everything is right there, you can't just pick and choose what to believe based on what's convenient to you. What if you decide it's OK to eat bacon and get a divorce, but those are issues from Deuteronomy that God is really hung up on? Bam, hell, sorry about your luck.

 

I love the message of peace, love, and kindness that most religions teach, but it has yielded so much violence and hatred over the course of humanity that, frankly, I would be ashamed to associate with such a violent group, be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. So many deaths have been directly caused by religion that it's depressing.

 

I live my life as if religion is not a real thing. It is something that intrigues me, but in a fictional novel type way, rather than a life-changing type way. My mother instilled the values of treating other people like I would want to treated, and thus, I try to be empathetic to everyone in all situations. You don't need religion to be a good person.

 

I may just be jaded but this is my view on religion in a quick nutshell.

[hawaiiirish 62]

If you are on a spiritual quest SDIrishFan I strongly recommend the videos made by Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers.

 

His books are difficult and tedious but before his death he spend 6 hour long sessions with Moyers on tape. It was a PBS series called the POWER OF MYTH.

 

I like to consider myself the smartest guy around----so I am not easily impressed. Campbell was another story though, the man was simply brilliant and one of the great minds of our time or any time.

 

He spent his life studying and comparing the mythologies and beliefs of EVERY known civilization. He uses piercing synthesis to find the patterns and explain the human psychology that drives them, its intellectually riveting and rich.

 

He is NOT a theist but he is so spiritual and has such a profound empathy for the human condition . And how all of us throughout time have had to struggle to put existence into some kind of context in order to function with our self awareness.

 

I used to have the HARD edge of Carl Sagan who used to say with such frustration how the world is "immersed in mysticism and superstition".

 

What Joe Campbell gave me was the gift of some of his empathy and understanding for the human condition.

 

IMO no spiritual quest is complete without sharing the experience of Joe Campbell talking about existence with Moyers. Its fantastic stuff.

 

aloha's

Edited August 6, 2014 by hawaiiirish

[DTCBND03 0]

My most interesting ND class/prof was Prof Ramsay intro to Philosophy in 01/02. He would argue both sides of arguments all semester long and then finally told us his beliefs at end of semester. He was an atheist. He said that as man became educated he would go from polytheism --> monotheism --> atheism. That's kinda the trend happening now cause not very many of my ND friends go to church anymore whereas in my grandpa's ND days they went to mass every morning.

[SDIrishFan 607]

Thanks everyone for sharing. I'm actually quite surprised that on a message board about a religious university, so many people are struggling with religious beliefs as much as me.

 

One thing mentioned was how can you only believe parts of the bible. It's seems there are two schools of thought there. Devout people who believe the bible to be the literal truth of god. This sort of historical document. And the others group that believes it is the theoretical interpretation of the truth of god.

 

The only reason the latter exists is cuz science has proven the first to not be possible. I could maybe buy that for now but as science continues to solve these issues, it's more and more disproving he bible.

 

Which then begs the question, is you belief simply in a spiritual being with a greater purpose rather than organized religion set up to herd the masses and deal with our fear of mortality.

[DTCBND03 0]

Which then begs the question, is you belief simply in a spiritual being with a greater purpose rather than organized religion set up to herd the masses and deal with our fear of mortality.

 

I'm leaning towards organized religion is set up to herd the masses and deal with our fear of mortality. That's why religion exists everywhere but there's a million different kinds of religion. When we can't explain something we come up with a story. Take the most primitive tribe religion in the Amazon and they're still trying to figure crap out...then a catholic missionary comes along and converts them. Saved? No just better educated to know there is no god of rain/moon/etc.

 

My last point about religion is that if you've seen Book of Mormon you can kinda see how ridiculous it all is and how that could even apply to Catholicism (very funny play too btw). More of the belief of being a good person and the Golden Rule and life will be alright.