Religious Beliefs Thread

[LasVegasIrish 0]

Thanks everyone for sharing. I'm actually quite surprised that on a message board about a religious university, so many people are struggling with religious beliefs as much as me.

 

One thing mentioned was how can you only believe parts of the bible. It's seems there are two schools of thought there. Devout people who believe the bible to be the literal truth of god. This sort of historical document. And the others group that believes it is the theoretical interpretation of the truth of god.

 

The only reason the latter exists is cuz science has proven the first to not be possible. I could maybe buy that for now but as science continues to solve these issues, it's more and more disproving he bible.

 

Which then begs the question, is you belief simply in a spiritual being with a greater purpose rather than organized religion set up to herd the masses and deal with our fear of mortality.

 

I believe the Bible is many things. I believe it involves history, metaphors, stories etc...I don't think the Bible was ever intended to be taken completely literal and yet so many people do

[toddrhodes 98]

I believe the Bible is many things. I believe it involves history, metaphors, stories etc...I don't think the Bible was ever intended to be taken completely literal and yet so many people do both for and against it

 

I finished that up to reflect how I feel the Bible is used. You have vehement supporters who use literal translations to defend it, and then on the other side you have the opposition who uses verbatim quotes to prove how silly it can be. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle, I'm sure.

[VCDomer 68]

I was born into a traditional Catholic household. I was baptized as an infant, did the first communion and confirmation and many years of catechism. The funny thing is my father, who was the driving force for the religious beliefs in our family, never talked to us about the bible or read to us or with us as a family. I just followed along, but always felt disconnected in some way. I never fully understood the necessity for all the ceremony involved in mass and rote repetition of sayings and phrases. As an adult fresh out of college, I quit going to church altogether. In my 30's I began to go back to church and again tried what I knew best... the Catholic church. Same thing with feeling emerged as when I was teenager/young adult. So I started trying other churches. After exploring many, I found a non-denominational Christian church that finally inspired to me seek a relationship and get to know him. I believe that is really the key. Seek the relationship and be active in nurturing it and developing it just like any other successful relationship you may have with anyone of importance in your life. They encouraged us to consider that faith and your relationship with God begins at home. The pastor preached that you should be talking to your children, your wife and your family all the time about the bible and God. That you should read the Bible together, discuss the passages and what they may be saying to us in our lives during this time of history. He also said that it is important to learn the history of the Bible so you could discuss the relevancy of the word to the people at the time it was written and first being preached. My faith and attitude took a complete 180 when I approached it as journey that I wanted to take with my family and to take an active role in seeking that relationship. Being baptized as an adult making that conscious decision was very meaningful to me as well. It is amazing to see how my children are growing in their faith and awareness of the world around them. I know that sometimes I walk alone in this in journey, but in actively seeking him there are always 2 sets of footprints on that walk.

Edited August 6, 2014 by VCDomer

[Scotty88 0]

great thread.

 

I believe that as you get older it is ok that there are mysteries in life. Some things are too big for science or explanation. I used to pry for answers and get frustrated. Now, not so much.

 

An example of this is taking communion as a Lutheran. Our beliefs are that we are drinking Christ's blood and eating the body of Christ. Would this hold up with a scientific test that examines the chemical make up of the sacraments? No, but I still believe this in my heart to be true and that is enough for me. Others believe differently and that is perfectly fine.

 

growing older, I want to know less about certain things and more about certain people. Most importantly Christ and my family. It's funny how modern life brings you closer to "society" yet farther from actual people (your family)

[LasVegasIrish 0]

I finished that up to reflect how I feel the Bible is used. You have vehement supporters who use literal translations to defend it, and then on the other side you have the opposition who uses verbatim quotes to prove how silly it can be. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle, I'm sure.

 

That is so true. It goes both ways

[LasVegasIrish 0]

I was born into a traditional Catholic household. I was baptized as an infant, did the first communion and confirmation and many years of catechism. The funny thing is my father, who was the driving force for the religious beliefs in our family, never talked to us about the bible or read to us or with us as a family. I just followed along, but always felt disconnected in some way. I never fully understood the necessity for all the ceremony involved in mass and rote repetition of sayings and phrases. As an adult fresh out of college, I quit going to church altogether. In my 30's I began to go back to church and again tried what I knew best... the Catholic church. Same thing with feeling emerged as when I was teenager/young adult. So I started trying other churches. After exploring many, I found a non-denominational Christian church that finally inspired to me seek a relationship and get to know him. I believe that is really the key. Seek the relationship and be active in nurturing it and developing it just like any other successful relationship you may have with anyone of importance in your life. They encouraged us to consider that faith and your relationship with God begins at home. The pastor preached that you should be talking to your children, your wife and your family all the time about the bible and God. That you should read the Bible together, discuss the passages and what they may be saying to us in our lives during this time of history. He also said that it is important to learn the history of the Bible so you could discuss the relevancy of the word to the people at the time it was written and first being preached. My faith and attitude took a complete 180 when I approached it as journey that I wanted to take with my family and to take an active role in seeking that relationship. Being baptized as an adult making that conscious decision was very meaningful to me as well. It is amazing to see how my children are growing in their faith and awareness of the world around them. I know that sometimes I walk alone in this in journey, but in actively seeking him there are always 2 sets of footprints on that walk.

 

Great post VC.

[EddieAngel 508]

Also the more I read on how the New Testament came to be, when the were written and how many times the bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted by kings and rulers to suit their political aspirations, the more I can't grasp how it can be remotely accurate.

 

Here's one of my other things, I feel like religion says the know the answer of how we came to be from point a to point b and so on.

 

At least science says, look, this is how we understand it now, there's lots of stuff we don't understand but we are working on it. We believe the Big Bang to be true but we don't know the catalyst. We don't have all the links in the evolutionary chain but were working on it.

 

I've been fascinated with Neil degrade Tyson and Christopher hitchens of late .

 

That is a commonly held viewpoint, that people believe that science and the big bang explain things that the Bible blows off or explains mystically, but did you know the idea of intelligent design is far easier to explain scientifically than the big bang? The idea of the big bang is actually a misnomer as it is not a single big bang to go from nothing to where we are, but rather a large serious of statistical anomalies to arrive at where we are.

 

Frank Pastore was a local radio host who passed away last year here in Southern California who had a great explanation of this:

 

http://townhall.com/columnists/frankpastore/2007/05/06/why_atheism_fails__the_four_big_bangs/page/full

 

Older school MLB fans might recognize him from his days in the league also. He was a self proclaimed atheist who found God while trying to disprove God. His view on things helped me to characterize my own over the years. I would listen to him on the way home from work and nod constantly and say "Yes, that is what I thought." Or "Exactly how I feel."

 

The idea that religion is a vehicle and that it is all allegory and object lesson is far easier for people to believe because they have all the guidelines of life without any accountability. It takes a LOT more faith to believe there is no God because you are literally staking your immortal soul on the idea. There is a common school of thought emerging about a one world religion where all roads lead to God, and the God of Christians is the same as the God of Muslims who is the same as Buddha, Shiva, etc...

 

That is simply not true and it is a dangerous school of thought that causes people to not question anything but rather just accept something convenient. I don't say that as a Christian but rather as a student of human nature. Any time you can just say "All roads lead to Rome" you are putting yourself in a position to cease any further questioning. Christianity never says "Don't ask don't tell." Matthew 7:7 says "Seek and you shall find..." (paraphrased) because Christianity is about pursuit of a relationship and deeper knowledge of God. It encourages us to love our neighbor as ourselves and Jesus points out in the parable of the good Samaritan that our neighbor is not just other Christians but everyone in the world. The Samaritan takes time to stop and help a Jew while other religious Jews from the man's own village pass him by for various reasons. This is the essence of the teaching of Jesus.

 

If you have arrived at the place where you think the Bible is not literal but rather an object lesson and that all ways lead to God I encourage you to shake the dust from your feet (to paraphrase Matthew again) and keep searching until you are satisfied that you have reason to not believe the other things.

 

You sound too smart and thorough to settle on something that sounds good without figuring out why.

[Rocketsan 772]

Some random thoughts...

 

I too have changed what I truly believe as I have aged. Grew up Catholic, attended Catholic grade and high schools, went to a Jesuit university enrolling in Theology to start (wish I'd have stuck with theology)...

 

I was always one to question why God allows bad things to happen to good people. No more prevalent was this line of questioning than on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, 2001. As I watched the horror unfold, I questioned out loud how God could allow such a tragedy to take place. As the hours and days progressed, I saw many miracles occur: the amount of people that got out...Port Authority Police officers John McLoughlin and Will Jimeno being saved...people having the courage to head down to Ground Zero to help in any way they could...I don't claim to understand why God allows these horrors or why he takes children away from parents...I dated a girl who's mother was a nurse for aging nuns and she tried several times to show me why things like this happen and why God doesn't intervene but I still struggle with it in a way.

 

I think God acts in mysterious ways at mysterious times. I think back to when I was seven. I was riding my bike to meet a friend at our school. A strange man tried to abduct me and take me into the bushes in the church parking lot (no, it wasn't a Catholic priest ). By the grace of God, I was able to escape and to this day, and every day I pass by the spot during my work day, I have to think that some higher power intervened - how else could a seven year old outrun a 30+ year old man? Or how else can you explain why my parents, who NEVER wore seatbelts, suddenly decided to put them on one day and got into a terrible car wreck within minutes? There has to be something more to it.

 

I have struggled with my commitment to Catholicism over the years because of the church's antiquated beliefs surrounding contraception and homosexuality. You can't say that everyone has a place at God's table then pull the chairs away.

 

I long to once again be more than just a fall Saturday Catholic where my goals and values align for a few hours of college football (where Catholicism and Notre Dame go hand in hand). If there is one quality I detest in myself (aside from being a major a$$hole at times [i prefer to keep it real]) it's that I tend to experience hyper-religiosity in times of struggle. And each and every time I vow to remain steadfast in my commitment to the Lord...not just in times of need...but rarely does it last...and that's not right.

[EddieAngel 508]

Some random thoughts...

 

I too have changed what I truly believe as I have aged. Grew up Catholic, attended Catholic grade and high schools, went to a Jesuit university enrolling in Theology to start (wish I'd have stuck with theology)...

 

I was always one to question why God allows bad things to happen to good people. No more prevalent was this line of questioning than on the morning of Tuesday, September 11, 2001. As I watched the horror unfold, I questioned out loud how God could allow such a tragedy to take place. As the hours and days progressed, I saw many miracles occur: the amount of people that got out...Port Authority Police officers John McLoughlin and Will Jimeno being saved...people having the courage to head down to Ground Zero to help in any way they could...I don't claim to understand why God allows these horrors or why he takes children away from parents...I dated a girl who's mother was a nurse for aging nuns and she tried several times to show me why things like this happen and why God doesn't intervene but I still struggle with it in a way.

 

I think God acts in mysterious ways at mysterious times. I think back to when I was seven. I was riding my bike to meet a friend at our school. A strange man tried to abduct me and take me into the bushes in the church parking lot (no, it wasn't a Catholic priest ). By the grace of God, I was able to escape and to this day, and every day I pass by the spot during my work day, I have to think that some higher power intervened - how else could a seven year old outrun a 30+ year old man? Or how else can you explain why my parents, who NEVER wore seatbelts, suddenly decided to put them on one day and got into a terrible car wreck within minutes? There has to be something more to it.

 

I have struggled with my commitment to Catholicism over the years because of the church's antiquated beliefs surrounding contraception and homosexuality. You can't say that everyone has a place at God's table then pull the chairs away.

 

I long to once again be more than just a fall Saturday Catholic where my goals and values align for a few hours of college football (where Catholicism and Notre Dame go hand in hand). If there is one quality I detest in myself (aside from being a major a$$hole at times [i prefer to keep it real]) it's that I tend to experience hyper-religiosity in times of struggle. And each and every time I vow to remain steadfast in my commitment to the Lord...not just in times of need...but rarely does it last...and that's not right.

 

I think many of us struggle with the same kinds of issues, which is why I favor Romans 7:15 and find myself thankful I am not the only person who has ever felt angry and inadequate for doing what I hate rather than doing what I know is right. All life is a lifelong journey, whatever you believe. The only time you reach the finish line is when you draw your last breath. In the meantime it is a constant cycle of growth and such.

 

I find myself more irked about the people that pretend to have it all together and always say everything is fine all the time and never have anything to add for prayer requests or need anything. Whether I am judging them in anger and jealousy because everything in their life is perfect or they are simply insincere... I prefer the honest self professed a$$hole personally, it helps me to remember that my struggles are not unique and like it says in the Bible, there is no temptation common to man that Jesus has not overcome.

 

Or to put it in more simple terms, some times you feel like a nut, some times you don't.

 

I appreciate that you touched on the point of why bad things happen to good people, I struggle with that as well. I was so downtrodden by the world the other day that I posted on the Faith in Humanity thread hoping for something to offset all of the horrors I was reading in the news. No post happened, but I did at least eventually snap out of it. The world is a dark dark place, anyone who thinks otherwise is lucky.

[DREWGOOSE 1]

I am a life long catholic...I am now 45. I have become more religious as time goes on. I can't always explain it, but I just get this feeling of peace when I am at Mass or during my daily prayers. I do believe that God has answered some of my prayers not all of course.

I was in a class with a priest teaching and he once said when someone asked him how he KNEW all this religious stuff in the catholic church was real. He of course said faith, but he also said he would rather believe and if it turned out none of it is real the that is ok then not to believe and have it all be true.

 

I will try to write more tomorrow as I only had a few minutes. like the thread though

[SDIrishFan 607]

Here's where I struggle with the god works in mysterious ways statements. How can we claim to know what gods will is, what his teachings are and what he wants for people when it comes to how we should live and then when bad things happen he's working in mysterious ways? Why do we only have insight into gods wishes when it's things we can explain?

 

You know when there's earthquakes or tornadoes or a tsunami that kills a quarter million people in a day, it leads me to the conclusion that either god is not all powerful, or he's not all good.

[EddieAngel 508]

Here's where I struggle with the god works in mysterious ways statements. How can we claim to know what gods will is, what his teachings are and what he wants for people when it comes to how we should live and then when bad things happen he's working in mysterious ways? Why do we only have insight into gods wishes when it's things we can explain?

 

You know when there's earthquakes or tornadoes or a tsunami that kills a quarter million people in a day, it leads me to the conclusion that either god is not all powerful, or he's not all good.

 

TLDR Summary:

 

Mysterious is just another word to categorize something we can't understand for lack of context

 

Long Answer:

 

Without being able to know the mind of God I know that some times I have to discipline my children in order to create a better end product, it hurts but it is for their good. I can't always answer their requests yes because it is bad for them. If they both want the last ice cream cone some times I have to tell one of them no, some times I tell them both no because I don't want to be unfair.

 

To my children my ways are mysterious because they don't have the context to understand my rational decision making nor do they have the ability to appreciate that the answer to their requests (prayers) some times has to be no in order to refine them and prepare them for a world in which they will often be told no.

 

It hurts me to tell my kids no because I love them and want them to have everything. I want them to be happy and safe but some times both of those things can't coincide so I have to choose safe over happy. They don't like to hear that and I don't like to say that, but I love them so that is what I do.

 

I don't know what causes tsunamis and earthquakes and such from a spiritual standpoint, but from a physical standpoint some of those are the consequences of living as we do. I live in California and accept that there are earthquakes and have made that decision. People who live near the water have a reasonable chance of having a water related disaster whether hurricane or tsunami. It is sad that some people live in poor areas and are subject to other disasters, man made or supported disasters like disease, famine, slavery, sex trafficking, etc...

 

There are some things we can't understand because we don't have the frame of reference. There are some things we don't want to understand because at heart a lot of people (At least me) are petulant five year old children at heart still harboring resentment and pain towards God and others. There are some things we accept as part of life but lament, like natural disasters. And there are some things we can do something about and choose not to, not necessarily as individuals, but as a human race, like disease, famine, poverty, slavery, abuse, sex trafficking, etc...

 

The converse of your question is how can people say that there is no God when good things happen to them but lament and say how can a good God allow such things when bad things happen? To believe one you have to allow for the other.

Edited August 6, 2014 by EddieAngel

[SDIrishFan 607]

[quote=EddieAngel;

The converse of your question is how can people say that there is no God when good things happen to them but lament and say how can a good God allow such things when bad things happen? To believe one you have to allow for the other.

 

I'm okay with the converse.

 

I'm also okay with sometimes good things happen and sometimes bad things happen and there may b no why.

[toddrhodes 98]

Eddie, I don't mean to pick on you, but this quote seems odd to me:

 

The idea of karma never sat well with me because it states that good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people... eventually. The ultimate cop out. It would be like me getting run over by chance and someone saying that it was cosmic retribution for the gum I stole when I was six. Mind you, there is more to karma and Buddhism that that, it turns out that it just didn't appear truthful to me.

 

The "eventually" part - couldn't the same be said for the Christian belief of Heaven and Hell? Do good things, go to heaven... eventually. Do bad things, go to hell... eventually. That's one piece, the second is the more thought-provoking part: what if someone goes their entire life, living a life of piety, sacrifice, and utter service to "God" only to find they were wrong the whole time. They still lived a proper life in service to their neighbor, but their ultimate "reward" is the same as all non-believers, just stillness. Nothingness. I'm not saying that's how it is or that anyone can ever prove it is or is not how we end up, just posing the question for debate.

[edcubby 2]

A Supreme Being created life...regardless of religion most believe that.

 

That Being created many different galaxies...many different atmospheres...many different planets...many different races....many different people.

 

Why He/She create ONLY one way to believe or worship Him/Her?

 

To me it doesn't matter...just be a good person.

 

Go Irish!!!

[Donjuan 16]

I believe in God, personally. The question regarding how God could ever allow tragedies to occur is often asked. In fact, just last week my neighbor asked me this as he was going through some medical things which probably sparked his interest a bit. My answer to him: God allows free choice. Always has, always will. The fact that horrible tragedies happen to people is not an indicator of a twisted God who loves suffering, but rather the absence of God. The people who commit these acts, some of cloth no less, do these acts because of an absence of God in their hearts--by their own choosing. Who then fills that void? Well it can only be that fiery serpent the devil.

[SDIrishFan 607]

I believe in God, personally. The question regarding how God could ever allow tragedies to occur is often asked. In fact, just last week my neighbor asked me this as he was going through some medical things which probably sparked his interest a bit. My answer to him: God allows free choice. Always has, always will. The fact that horrible tragedies happen to people is not an indicator of a twisted God who loves suffering, but rather the absence of God. The people who commit these acts, some of cloth no less, do these acts because of an absence of God in their hearts--by their own choosing. Who then fills that void? Well it can only be that fiery serpent the devil.

 

Hey gabe, thanks for jumping in. What about horrible things that happen that don't involve free will/choice?

 

An example would be when parents truly forget that their child is still in the car only to discover hours later that they've died? No I'll intent, no malice, just a horrible mistake resulting in a horribly painful death for an innocent child.

 

How am I supposed to just accept that an omnipotent god can allow that to happen?

[Soko 128]

I like religion and spirituality although I don't necessarily believe in it as it can help people get through tough times and gives good guidelines on how we should lives our. The fact that many people have taken this far too literally is a concern but the fault can't be laid at the foot of the church.

 

 

My main issue with Christianity has always been with creationism. How can you seriously ask people to believe the earth is 10,000 years yet we marvel at our landscape and scientific developments which prove this to be false on a daily basis? I won't go into too much but it's a seriously flawed plot to begin the basis of our entire existence.

[EddieAngel 508]

Eddie, I don't mean to pick on you, but this quote seems odd to me:

 

 

 

The "eventually" part - couldn't the same be said for the Christian belief of Heaven and Hell? Do good things, go to heaven... eventually. Do bad things, go to hell... eventually. That's one piece, the second is the more thought-provoking part: what if someone goes their entire life, living a life of piety, sacrifice, and utter service to "God" only to find they were wrong the whole time. They still lived a proper life in service to their neighbor, but their ultimate "reward" is the same as all non-believers, just stillness. Nothingness. I'm not saying that's how it is or that anyone can ever prove it is or is not how we end up, just posing the question for debate.

 

I don't take it as picking, and the idea of heaven and hell and karma are not as mutually interchangeable as it might seem from the outset. The Bible says that we are saved by faith, not my works so no man can boast. That means that we are saved through the work of Jesus and that what we do has no bearing on our salvation. While many people throw stones at this and talk about death bed conversion or people who say they believe in God and then continue to do bad things, the Bible goes on to say that the fruits of the spirit (That is the kind of qualities a person has when indwelt with the holy spirit) are love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, meekness, goodness, faithfulness and self-control, those are kind of the guidelines for good character.

 

That said, Buddhism speaks of a kind of justice in which a person is punished or rewarded for his deeds. This is reward, encouragement, or salvation through works, though Buddhism is also quite vague on salvation/eternity. Jesus, and the Bible, speak of salvation through grace. The idea of getting what you need vs. what you deserve.

 

Christianity also never says you will get good things in this world or good things will happen to you, quite the contrary actually. Christ says that there will be suffering while we are in the world and that we will be persecuted. And it is true for all people, believers and otherwise. Buddhism says good things will happen if you are good, and bad things will happen if you are bad, it is an extremely vague doctrine.

 

No discredit to Buddhists, I know quite a few who are wonderful people. I just felt like the entire thing felt a little bit disingenuous and intentionally vague, much like a horoscope or a psychic reading.

 

That is my interpretation of it from my experiences, someone else might read it differently.

[EddieAngel 508]

Eddie, I don't mean to pick on you, but this quote seems odd to me:

 

 

 

The "eventually" part - couldn't the same be said for the Christian belief of Heaven and Hell? Do good things, go to heaven... eventually. Do bad things, go to hell... eventually. That's one piece, the second is the more thought-provoking part: what if someone goes their entire life, living a life of piety, sacrifice, and utter service to "God" only to find they were wrong the whole time. They still lived a proper life in service to their neighbor, but their ultimate "reward" is the same as all non-believers, just stillness. Nothingness. I'm not saying that's how it is or that anyone can ever prove it is or is not how we end up, just posing the question for debate.

 

In regards to part 2, if atheists are right and there is no light at the end of the tunnel I suspect I won't be around to lament it and my reward will be the reward of having lived as good a life as I can and having been of service to others.

 

IF the atheists are right and they have the time and inclination to thumb their nose at me then I guess I will be at liberty to dispense with my misheld Christian beliefs and punch them in the face I think of it as a win-win.