Post game: #15 Notre Dame @ Clemson(Loss 31-23)

[JeffV 332]

Nothing much new to say.  Frustrating loss.  Two huge turnovers - the pick 6 and the muffed punt.  Field position absolutely crushed us.

No semblance to our overall offense.  It's not completely broken, but it's clearly not enough.  OC questions are fair.  I expect change.

Personnel are young.  Some hard work ahead this offseason.

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

16 hours ago, Kid Gloves said:

Hartman was bad. 

But our receivers got no separation all game. No one was open.

Parker needs to go.

16 hours ago, retch10 said:

...
We lost today for reasons that were not the head coach. Or the offensive coordinator. They are not without blame...everyone can share in it. We lost today because PLAYERS didn't tackle well.  We lost today because the OL was average at best in pass protection. We lost today because NO ONE COULD GET OPEN.  We lost today because a 6th year QB was erratic and turned the ball over.

Is the OC partly to blame for those offensive shortcomings? Sure.  If the guys can't win one on one battles and get open, you better call something to get them open. Not easy to do. If your QB looks erratic and the OL is struggling, you better move him around and get him some easy throws.  Didn't try much of that. I'd offer that playcalling is a tough job to begin with...and when your line is shaky, the QB isn't getting it done and your WR's can't win one on one...Its damn near impossible.
...

And one of the worst parts about the receivers today is they couldn't get open against several freshmen in the Clemson secondary.  Its unacceptable.  

[Frankus 197]

The offense rarely has any sense of momentum and precision. I don’t think we have a talented receiver corps, but Parker doesn’t appear to know his personnel - strengths and weaknesses- to design an offense that keeps the chains moving and gets the ball in the end zone. 
 

Either Freeman brings in a couple of ready to start playmaking WR’s in this recruiting class, or I don’t expect  a lot of improvement next year. I doubt ND will allow him to bring in sophomore or junior NIL talent and grad transfer receivers aren’t elite NFL potential types. 

After watching our lack of WR speed live against USC, I didn’t expect a down field passing game, but I expected that Hartman would protect the ball. I was wrong. 
 

I doubt this will happen, but I’d rather bench Hartman and play for next year to get a good assessment of both Angelli and Minchey. 
 

Clemson front 4 beat up our overrated offensive line in the 4th quarter. Talent doesn’t mean toughness and if I’m Marcus Freeman I’m evaluating why the OL is so soft. 
 

Clemson’s offense was well prepared for our blitz heavy scheme and attacked its weaknesses. Once we stopped blitzing we stopped them cold. Golden took too long to stop, but they gave the offense many opportunities to make up for the 8 point deficit. The offense simply stunk. 
 

The biggest hope I have for Freeman leading us to the promised land is a string of Top 5-7 recruiting classes and a home run hire Offensive Coordinator. ND took a big risk hoping his passion would lead to recruits wanting to play for him, but kids look at wins and losses too. I hope he can persuade them that Notre Dame wants to be elite again and that he’s an elite Head Coach. It’s going to be a challenge for him like no other as he’s digging a hole for himself with his team playing like an average ACC team  

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Frankus

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

16 hours ago, retch10 said:

Its been a struggle from Ohio State forward. I tend to think its not just Parker.  We can't continue to try and have a big time passing game without big time WR's. Early in the season, when the competition wasn't as strong and the WR's were making plays all over the field, how did Parker's playcalls look?

When the competition improved..and the WR's were no longer winning their battles and getting open...how did Hartman and Parker look?

Coaches have to be good..no doubt.  But players need to make plays. A coach can only do so much. I tend to think its the WR's holding back the offense more than Parker.

Agreed 100%.  

[Rocketsan 773]

12 hours ago, Joey D.... said:

Clemson zero penalty yards

This is not an officiating thing… it’s a discipline thing… we are undisciplined. 

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

15 hours ago, retch10 said:

I find it fascinating that people always blame coaches. ??? There is only so much a coach can do. 

im not sure separation is something that is taught. Like I said earlier, as the opposition has improved, they have shown they aren’t “great”. They’ve shown they are injured, young, or just average. Or some combination of all of them depending on which one we are talking about. 

The wideouts being average makes us much easier to defend. No one is afraid to get beat over the top.  Hurts the run game, hurts protection.  

Agree again.  Thankfully the next receiving class is chock full of dudes.  

[Rocketsan 773]

6 minutes ago, Frankus said:

The offense rarely has any sense of momentum and precision. I don’t think we have a talented receiver corps, but Parker doesn’t appear to know his personnel - strengths and weaknesses- to design an offense that keeps the chains moving and gets the ball in the end zone. 
 

Either Freeman brings in a couple of ready to start playmaking WR’s in this recruiting class, or I don’t expect  a lot of improvement next year. I doubt ND will allow him to bring in sophomore or junior NIL talent and grad transfer receivers aren’t elite NFL potential types. 

After watching our lack of WR speed live against USC, I didn’t expect a down field passing game, but I expected that Hartman would protect the ball. I was wrong. 
 

I doubt this will happen, but I’d rather bench Hartman and play for next year to get a good assessment of both Angelli and Minchey. 
 

Clemson front 4 beat up our overrated offensive line in the 4th quarter. Talent doesn’t mean toughness and if I’m Marcus Freeman I’m evaluating why the OL is so soft. 
 

Clemson’s offense was well prepared for our blitz heavy scheme and attacked its weaknesses. Once we stopped blitzing we stopped them cold. Golden took too long to stop, but they gave the offense many opportunities to make up for the 8 point deficit. The offense simply stunk. 
 

The biggest hope I have for Freeman leading us to the promised land is a string of Top 5-7 recruiting classes and a home run hire Offensive Coordinator. ND took a big risk hoping his passion would lead to recruits wanting to play for him, but kids look at wins and losses too. I hope he can persuade them that Notre Dame wants to be elite again and that he’s an elite Head Coach. It’s going to be a challenge for him like no other as he’s digging a hole for himself with his team playing like an average ACC team  

 

Post of the weekend.

[ndmike88 136]

The next 2 games plus the bowl game are time for ND to look at the 2024 season and beyond. Everyone knows Hartman is gone after this season so IMO ND should play both Angeli & Minchey and see what they can do. If they show promise then fine, if not hit the transfer portal again. Also, hopefully Freeman is putting out feelers to see who is available for the OC position once the season is over.

For next season QB, OC and if Golden moves on a new DC will be needed. Lots of questions need to be answered in 2024 and for the future and next season will go a long way in deciding Freeman's tenure at ND. Will the University open up the checkbook so Freeman can go after the right coaches, or will ND continue to be strapped when it comes to getting the best coaches available?

I have been following the Irish since Ara and I don't want the 1988 championship to be the last one I see before I die. I realize ND's hands are tied academically but Freeman has been getting some great talent to commit to Notre Dame. The pieces of the puzzle are there, ND just needs to put the pieces together.

 

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

2 hours ago, Rocketsan said:

This is not an officiating thing… it’s a discipline thing… we are undisciplined. 

Full stop it is 100% an officiating thing.  Now, with that said, I am not disagreeing with you that ND is undisciplined.  The Irish take some stupid ill timed penalties quite often and that needs to be fixed.  However, the fact that we get so heavily penalized while other teams get next to nothing seemingly every time we have an ACC squad, especially on the road, its a friging problem and that needs to be brought to attention to whoever the frig it needs to be brought to in order to get this shit rectified.  There is no friging way not one player in orange yesterday committed a foul of any kind.  Bullfrigingshit.

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

2 hours ago, Frankus said:

The offense rarely has any sense of momentum and precision. I don’t think we have a talented receiver corps, but Parker doesn’t appear to know his personnel - strengths and weaknesses- to design an offense that keeps the chains moving and gets the ball in the end zone. 
 

Either Freeman brings in a couple of ready to start playmaking WR’s in this recruiting class, or I don’t expect  a lot of improvement next year. I doubt ND will allow him to bring in sophomore or junior NIL talent and grad transfer receivers aren’t elite NFL potential types. 

After watching our lack of WR speed live against USC, I didn’t expect a down field passing game, but I expected that Hartman would protect the ball. I was wrong. 

I doubt this will happen, but I’d rather bench Hartman and play for next year to get a good assessment of both Angelli and Minchey. 

Clemson front 4 beat up our overrated offensive line in the 4th quarter. Talent doesn’t mean toughness and if I’m Marcus Freeman I’m evaluating why the OL is so soft. 

Clemson’s offense was well prepared for our blitz heavy scheme and attacked its weaknesses. Once we stopped blitzing we stopped them cold. Golden took too long to stop, but they gave the offense many opportunities to make up for the 8 point deficit. The offense simply stunk. 

The biggest hope I have for Freeman leading us to the promised land is a string of Top 5-7 recruiting classes and a home run hire Offensive Coordinator. ND took a big risk hoping his passion would lead to recruits wanting to play for him, but kids look at wins and losses too. I hope he can persuade them that Notre Dame wants to be elite again and that he’s an elite Head Coach. It’s going to be a challenge for him like no other as he’s digging a hole for himself with his team playing like an average ACC team  

1 hour ago, ndmike88 said:

The next 2 games plus the bowl game are time for ND to look at the 2024 season and beyond. Everyone knows Hartman is gone after this season so IMO ND should play both Angeli & Minchey and see what they can do. If they show promise then fine, if not hit the transfer portal again. Also, hopefully Freeman is putting out feelers to see who is available for the OC position once the season is over.

For next season QB, OC and if Golden moves on a new DC will be needed. Lots of questions need to be answered in 2024 and for the future and next season will go a long way in deciding Freeman's tenure at ND. Will the University open up the checkbook so Freeman can go after the right coaches, or will ND continue to be strapped when it comes to getting the best coaches available?

I have been following the Irish since Ara and I don't want the 1988 championship to be the last one I see before I die. I realize ND's hands are tied academically but Freeman has been getting some great talent to commit to Notre Dame. The pieces of the puzzle are there, ND just needs to put the pieces together.

I'm torn on the whole sit Hartman and play the kids for the next two games.  It could potentially send a bad message.  Don't get me wrong, I would love to get a head start on next season and get these two kids some proper playing time.  We know one of them will be playing the bowl game as I'm sure Hartman will be deciding to sit out of the PopTarts Bowl.  However, at the same time, I don't want to run the risk of losing these last two games.  What a friging nightmare that would be.  I would worry about the effect it might have on 2025 recruits looking at a 7-5 record instead of 9-3.

[Rocketsan 773]

49 minutes ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

Full stop it is 100% an officiating thing.  Now, with that said, I am not disagreeing with you that ND is undisciplined.  The Irish take some stupid ill timed penalties quite often and that needs to be fixed.  However, the fact that we get so heavily penalized while other teams get next to nothing seemingly every time we have an ACC squad, especially on the road, its a friging problem and that needs to be brought to attention to whoever the frig it needs to be brought to in order to get this shit rectified.  There is no friging way not one player in orange yesterday committed a foul of any kind.  Bullfrigingshit.

the officiating is against Notre Dame is as tired an angle as ESPN hates Notre Dame...

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

1 minute ago, Rocketsan said:

the officiating is against Notre Dame is as tired an angle as ESPN hates Notre Dame...

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy to call penalties against ND.  I agree that is ridiculous fanfare.  However, you cannot deny that officiating as been terribly one-sided in several games.  

[Baldy 1,254]

6 hours ago, retch10 said:

This is what you said: 

I don’t know? I feel this is more on Stuckey than the players.

The reason is I feel the receivers have regressed big time as the season has gone on, and there are a lot of great players in that room. It’s just so unacceptable they have not gotten better 10 games in! Like, how can they not get separation!?

Are we having the same conversation? You seem to want to put all the blame on the coaches. Which I said kinda fascinates me. I've said coaches can't be absolved of all blame, but that they can only do so much. 

How many of these guys are going to end up playing on Sundays? Greathouse has the potential to do so..but I don't think he projects to a first rounder.  Flores? Maybe a day 3 type draft pick. Jayden Thomas? Maybe makes an NFL roster. Merriweather? He's the disappointment. He has the traits to develop..and he hasn't. Yet. 

Is that on Stuckey? Parker? We have no idea. We don't know what is taking place inside those walls. Which is why it fascinates me that peoples automatic "go to" is..."that's coaching". When I see these players look great against lesser talent but are  just JAGS againt superior talent, it tells ME that the players aren't great. It tells ME that they're true talent level is above Central Michigan but not quite there (for whatever reason) against Ohio State, Duke, Louisville, and Clemson.  It says nothing to me about coaching.

I give the young guys time.. Merriweather, Flores, Greathouse. True improvement comes between January-August. Its really hard to grow your game in-season. You're focused on opponent, gameplan, team specific things at that point.Further, Greathouse and Thomas have been injured..so that makes it really hard. 

 

 

 

I went back and saw what I had said. I guess I was thinking they could be great, but said they were great, but mostly trying to say they have not been coached to their full potential. This is what had me question Stuckey.

And that’s all I was trying to say.

But yes, whose it on? Parker, Stuckey, the tooth fairy? As you said, no one knows. But I agree, the players need to do more. I thought I saw the WRs get separation at times, mainly Faison, but Hartman missed them being open.

With that being said, I think we can put this to rest and just agree to disagree.

What we can agree on is we want to see everyone improve and become great coaches and players, so let’s hope for that! 🍻

[nremdn 34]

3 hours ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

I think Freeman needs to let Parker interview for his own job in these last two games.  Let him call the game he wants to call.  If its not up to snuff, someone new needs to be brought in.

What could he possibly show in the last 2 games against terrible defenses that we don’t already know? The tests are all over, his offense failed every one. Getting a C in summer school so they can find any way to pass him and move him onto the next grade he’s unprepared for is just asking for more of the same. He seems to be a very good te coach and if he wants to stay in that capacity, wonderful, but the OC experiment has concluded and the results are in.

Edited November 5, 2023 by nremdn

[Baldy 1,254]

1 hour ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

Full stop it is 100% an officiating thing.  Now, with that said, I am not disagreeing with you that ND is undisciplined.  The Irish take some stupid ill timed penalties quite often and that needs to be fixed.  However, the fact that we get so heavily penalized while other teams get next to nothing seemingly every time we have an ACC squad, especially on the road, its a friging problem and that needs to be brought to attention to whoever the frig it needs to be brought to in order to get this shit rectified.  There is no friging way not one player in orange yesterday committed a foul of any kind.  Bullfrigingshit.

 

6 minutes ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

I'm not saying there is a conspiracy to call penalties against ND.  I agree that is ridiculous fanfare.  However, you cannot deny that officiating as been terribly one-sided in several games.  

I agree with that 100%, and always will because it does appear very lopsided and never favors Notre Dame.

Case in point just yesterday was that one OPI they called on Greathouse. What I saw was him get held when he was trying to separate, and then was pulled down. They tried to say he did a rub or pick. Total bs!!

But what makes it worse is that no team should ever go a full game without a single penalty. I feel the ACC refs are the worst against Notre Dame, but also appear to send Notre Dame a message that it will continue until they join a conference, specifically the ACC full time!

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

42 minutes ago, nremdn said:

What could he possibly show in the last 2 games against terrible defenses that we don’t already know? The tests are all over, his offense failed every one. Getting a C in summer school so they can find any way to pass him and move him onto the next grade he’s unprepared for is just asking for more of the same. He seems to be a very good te coach and if he wants to stay in that capacity, wonderful, but the OC experiment has concluded and the results are in.

Now read the entire post you quoted without cherry picking the part you want to rebut.  But yes, I think for all intents and purposes it is time to move on because you're right.  There isn't enough time for Parker to prove anything for himself.

[jessemoore97 1,293]

1 hour ago, Rocketsan said:

the officiating is against Notre Dame is as tired an angle as ESPN hates Notre Dame...

But ESPN does like totally hates us!  😆

[nremdn 34]

1 hour ago, Baldy said:

 

I agree with that 100%, and always will because it does appear very lopsided and never favors Notre Dame.

Case in point just yesterday was that one OPI they called on Greathouse. What I saw was him get held when he was trying to separate, and then was pulled down. They tried to say he did a rub or pick. Total bs!!

But what makes it worse is that no team should ever go a full game without a single penalty. I feel the ACC refs are the worst against Notre Dame, but also appear to send Notre Dame a message that it will continue until they join a conference, specifically the ACC full time!

Do I think ND lost yesterday because of the refs? Absolutely not. They lost because they played like crap. What is hard to argue with is ZERO penalties. Pretty impressive accomplishment for a sloppy .500 team.

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

3 minutes ago, nremdn said:

Do I think ND lost yesterday because of the refs? Absolutely not. They lost because they played like crap. What is hard to argue with is ZERO penalties. Pretty impressive accomplishment for a sloppy .500 team.

EXACTLY!

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

1 hour ago, Baldy said:

I agree with that 100%, and always will because it does appear very lopsided and never favors Notre Dame.

Case in point just yesterday was that one OPI they called on Greathouse. What I saw was him get held when he was trying to separate, and then was pulled down. They tried to say he did a rub or pick. Total bs!!

But what makes it worse is that no team should ever go a full game without a single penalty.

Agreed.

Quote

 I feel the ACC refs are the worst against Notre Dame, but also appear to send Notre Dame a message that it will continue until they join a conference, specifically the ACC full time!

Except with this.  This dips into the fanfare conspiracy theories in my opinion.  I really don't think the commissioner of the ACC is telling his refs to screw ND in hopes to force them to join full time.