Charge him with Treason

[hawaiiirish 62]

if I recall there was a lot of self-righteous indignation when we discovered the Israeli's were spying on us, their ally.

 

So now its POT KETTLE as I suspect it always was----I truly doubt spying on the EU was some new initiative of this white house , it is , as so much of the SURVEILANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX---THE SIC is----- , part of the new order of "need to know everything" that has evolved out the Cold War and received a steroid jolt after 9/11!

 

Its somewhat ironic that during the Cold War--when what was at stake underpinning all of our cold war behavior, some of that including our third world meddling rather disgraceful , nonetheless justification for it was the potential of thermo-nuclear global war---a near EXTINCTION event.

 

Now, with a much smaller stake , we have decided to include nearly everyone and everything on the planet as a potential surveillance target, a dynamic raise in kind &intensity from the surveillance needs of the cold war with IMHO a smaller justification.

 

To be fair--a lot of this heightening of domestic & international surveillance is flowing from the inertia of HAVING THE TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT----But there is also is developing a MINDSET , a modestly paranoid mindset IMO, that if we somehow don't know , don't moniter, don't have access to almost every states decision making apparatus, and don't know , don't monitor , don't maintain the essential data from MOST EVERY INDIVIDUALS communications---WE ARE AT HIGH RISK!!

 

That is a difficult position to maintain. The war on terror , like the war on drugs or the war on cancer is one that likely can never really end---so technology pushed forward--surveillance at extraordinary levels continues to be demanded --and ROUND & ROUND WE GO WHERE SHE STOPS NOBODY KNOWS.

 

That's the catch--where and when does our need to know as a STATE ever taper off----will we INSTITUTIONALIZE SURVEILLANCE to such an extent that it becomes its own end , that 30 years from now , when many don't even recall or weren't born during 9/11, FIND SURVEILLANCE ON A GLOBAL SCALE WILL BE GREATER THEN TODAY BY MANY LEVELS OF INTENSITY ---and without any real need to justify or provide some contextual rationalization for it---IT WILL SIMPLY BECOME THE WAY IT IS---

 

IMHO that is the likely evolution of this odd blend of technology and global insecurity ---that will be unstoppable by anyone---a NEW PARADIME for the 21st century that will be done be EVERY STATE & EVERY CORPORATION , and will likely be institutionalized so firmly , objections , oversight , questions of any kind by anyone simply FADE AWAY.

 

Its evolution fellas , social evolution , and its not all that attractive or appealing a place to go , and its total ramifications are at best hazy & unclear......but it is where we are going and I doubt anything can change that.

 

aloha's

Edited July 1, 2013 by hawaiiirish

[VCDomer 68]

How do you know my tone and attitude? I was just clearing up the facts for duck. where were you replying to some of the posts on here comparing Obama to Hitler ect.? Not to mention how does my post corralate with right wing hate groups?

 

Huh? Do you have trouble maintaining focus or just your grip on reality?

[echo88 74]

Besides, all of the people complaining about legality should read up on FISA. The judges are appointed by the chief justice of the SCOTUS, inclusive of three judges whom serve as appeals judges, with a secondary option of the government/DOJ being able to appeal to the Supreme Court, if they disagree with a decision.

 

Given that the Obama administration has no direct say in those appointments and besides John Roberts is right-wing, I'd say we have a balance of power here to oversee that our privacy rights are adequately balanced with our need for safety against the legalities of probable cause and the 4th amendment.

 

Congress wrote these laws, inclusive of the Patriot Act, which was approved by your elected officlals. So far, I don't see any glaring violations of the law or of our Constitution.

 

Having said all of that, I find that Mr. Snowden is a puffed up, narcissistic oaf because as you can see from Vladimir Putin's statement, even Russia doesn't buy his altruistic motives. Instead, he's the aggressor here whom wants to blackmail the US into playing his game by continuing to leak embarrassing information that damages our country, our citizens, our foreign relations, and our national security.

 

Our president has been smeared, criticized, embarrassed before by many Americans, so Snowden should know better than to think this man is going to stoop to Snowden's level and bullying to engage in this stupid game with him. Ignoring him is the right thing to do. He only ought to come out and have a discussion with the American people about Snowden's claims and the realities of our national security.

 

Finally, if any of you honestly think that none of our adversaries or other democracies around the world engage in espionage (and corporate espionage) in the same or worse manner than the United States, then you must be naive and probably still believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, too.

[ND3 0]

I'm providing a lot of reading/source material here, but if you really want to be informed, you'll read it all.

 

The United States and their allies created the War on Terror: "They [the CIA] told me these people were fanatical, and the more fierce they were the more fiercely they would fight the Soviets," he said. "I warned them that we were creating a monster."

 

CIA/NATO false flag operation- Operation Gladio

 

The CIA experiments in mind control. Sounds like they have pure intentions, right guys?

 

480,000 private contractors have top secret NSA clearance. Because that's totally keeping us safe.

 

John Stockwell, the highest ranking CIA official to go public, discusses secret wars in Angola, Central America, and Vietnam. Because we aren't in enough unnecessary wars as it is:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmYZ_kWHk3Q]John Stockwell, the highest ranking CIA official to go public, discusses secret wars in Angola, Central America, and Vietnam. Because we aren't in enough unnecessary wars as it is.[/ame]

 

"About a third of the whole CIA budget went to media propaganda operations. ...We're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year just for that.....close to a billion dollars are being spent every year by the United States on secret propaganda." Operation Mockingbird- Reasons like this are why the media is talking about Snowden instead of having a productive debate about the leaked information.

 

And of course, Iran-Contra shows the CIA has zero regard for domestic or international law. “The common ingredients of the Iran and Contra policies were secrecy, deception, and disdain for the law...the United States simultaneously pursued two contradictory foreign policies — a public one and a secret one”- Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair

 

Let's learn from history. These are well-cited, well-sourced facts. The fact is, without public scrutiny, we cannot trust these powerful, secret government agencies. Power inherently corrupts, and as much as you guys want to justify the system of checks and balances on the NSA/PRISM, it doesn't exist. It may take a lot of work to get the information, sure, but the FISA courts turn down significantly less than 1% of requests.

 

Snowden's information has still not put anyone in any danger. We were spying on German civilians... I'd be pretty upset if I were them as well. He's not being ignored at all- Biden personally tried to talk Ecuador into not granting him the human right of asylum. There's a difference between what Obama says and what he does.

 

4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." There is no probable cause to sieze the digital information of every American, and if you know anything about government, you know that the Constitution trumps everything else. It is illegal, no matter how justified it is by the PATRIOT Act.

 

Transcript of Snowden's statement in Moscow:

 

One week ago I left Hong Kong after it became clear that my freedom and safety were under threat for revealing the truth. My continued liberty has been owed to the efforts of friends new and old, family, and others who I have never met and probably never will. I trusted them with my life and they returned that trust with a faith in me for which I will always be thankful.

 

On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

 

This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me. For decades the United States of America has been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.

 

In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

 

I am unbowed in my convictions and impressed at the efforts taken by so many.

 

Edward Joseph Snowden

Edited July 2, 2013 by ND3
Added some info, formatting

[VCDomer 68]

Besides, all of the people complaining about legality should read up on FISA. The judges are appointed by the chief justice of the SCOTUS, inclusive of three judges whom serve as appeals judges, with a secondary option of the government/DOJ being able to appeal to the Supreme Court, if they disagree with a decision.

 

Given that the Obama administration has no direct say in those appointments and besides John Roberts is right-wing, I'd say we have a balance of power here to oversee that our privacy rights are adequately balanced with our need for safety against the legalities of probable cause and the 4th amendment.

 

Congress wrote these laws, inclusive of the Patriot Act, which was approved by your elected officlals. So far, I don't see any glaring violations of the law or of our Constitution.

 

Having said all of that, I find that Mr. Snowden is a puffed up, narcissistic oaf because as you can see from Vladimir Putin's statement, even Russia doesn't buy his altruistic motives. Instead, he's the aggressor here whom wants to blackmail the US into playing his game by continuing to leak embarrassing information that damages our country, our citizens, our foreign relations, and our national security.

 

Our president has been smeared, criticized, embarrassed before by many Americans, so Snowden should know better than to think this man is going to stoop to Snowden's level and bullying to engage in this stupid game with him. Ignoring him is the right thing to do. He only ought to come out and have a discussion with the American people about Snowden's claims and the realities of our national security.Finally, if any of you honestly think that none of our adversaries or other democracies around the world engage in espionage (and corporate espionage) in the same or worse manner than the United States, then you must be naive and probably still believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, too.

 

I don't see that happening for 2 reasons. One...... half of the public won't understand any explanation he could provide, and Two...It will only continue the circus with this idiot and as a biproduct give him credibility. Keep quiet for now... wait..... catch him... then get in motion to repair the damage. I can imagine that China, Russia, Germany, Cuba, North Korea..etc are all having a nice littel giggle over this and plannng how to use it to their advantage politically.

[echo88 74]

I don't see that happening for 2 reasons. One...... half of the public won't understand any explanation he could provide, and Two...It will only continue the circus with this idiot and as a biproduct give him credibility. Keep quiet for now... wait..... catch him... then get in motion to repair the damage. I can imagine that China, Russia, Germany, Cuba, North Korea..etc are all having a nice littel giggle over this and plannng how to use it to their advantage politically.

 

His explanation would be exactly what I offered in some of the previous pages of this thread.

[chirodomer 47]

http://en.mchs.ru/news/item/434203/

[ND3 0]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/misinformation-on-classified-nsa-programs-includes-statements-by-senior-us-officials/2013/06/30/7b5103a2-e028-11e2-b2d4-ea6d8f477a01_story.html

 

A remark by Litt’s boss, Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr., has perhaps drawn the most attention. Asked during a congressional hearing in March whether the NSA collected data on millions of Americans, Clapper replied, “No, sir.”

 

(Later in the article)

 

“I have thought long and hard to re-create what went through my mind at the time,” Clapper said in the previously undisclosed letter. “My response was clearly erroneous — for which I apologize.”

 

This is perjury, and if there was a system of checks and balances, he would be out of a job and possibly in jail. It's a felony. But he apoligized, so it's water under the bridge, right? Let's just forget about this instance and pretend like it never happened.

[ND3 0]

Source? He didn't list them, he said there were 50+. Again, you're trusting the guy trying to cover his ***, which I don't. We have no data to support this claim. The NSA/PRISM/PATRIOT Act are in violation of the 4th Amendment. How are they not?

 

Hey guys, remember this? Heh, well, turns out I was right.

 

http://thestateweekly.com/nsa-director-alexander-admits-he-lied-about-phone-surveillance-stopping-54-terror-plots/

 

Alexander admitted that only 13 of the 54 cases were connected to the United States. He also told the committee that only one or two suspected plots were identified as a result of bulk phone record collection.

 

The lies continue to unfold. We can continue to pretend mass surveillance is necessary when the evidence continues to show that it's not.

 

I, on the other hand, will continue to write my Congresspeople and try to make at least a little bit of a difference. All these lies and misleading information are too much for me. The government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people, and for the people" when, at the present time, it seems like they are just taking advantage of the people.

[el senor domer 0]

I, on the other hand, will continue to write my Congresspeople and try to make at least a little bit of a difference. All these lies and misleading information are too much for me. The government is supposed to be "of the people, by the people, and for the people" when, at the present time, it seems like they are just taking advantage of the people.

 

Great point and thanks for bringing this back