Charge him with Treason

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Because that would take an entire swing shift working weekends to compile. In all seriousness, the fact that you visit porn sites wouldn't be known unless you spend your jerk breaks logging into established jihad websites or skyping with militants in Somalia. And even then, you're still a series of numbers....identity still unknown. That's when we would have to get a court order to access your surfing and to figure out what the hell you're doing in the U.S. That is just how many layers have to be peeled away. It's ridiculous.

 

RIIIIIGHT. Just like it is a total coincidence that it was conservative groups that opposed Barry and the Dems or supported the Tea Party that were targeted and/or denied non-profit status by the IRS. Total coincidence!!

 

How many court orders did it take the government to confiscate the AP records and the private phone records of several AP reporters? I will give you a hint ... it is the loneliest number.

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Ummm 9/11 and the hundreds of foiled attempts thereafter are sufficient evidence I should think. DIRNSA only listed 50 that have been thwarted with our existing formula. We are following the laws.

 

The 2 biggest airplane threats were allowed to pass through TSA checks and were stopped by American citizens on those airplanes.

[Rockets Revenge 0]

You have the right to take a car if you don't like it. Flying is an option. Not a requirement and certainly not a right. It is not offered by nor sponsored by the government.

 

Agreed. I have the RIGHT not to be sexually harrassed, assaulted, or discriminated against during ANY option I choose for my travel!!!

[ND3 0]

Ummm 9/11 and the hundreds of foiled attempts thereafter are sufficient evidence I should think. DIRNSA only listed 50 that have been thwarted with our existing formula. We are following the laws.

 

Source? He didn't list them, he said there were 50+. Again, you're trusting the guy trying to cover his ***, which I don't. We have no data to support this claim. The NSA/PRISM/PATRIOT Act are in violation of the 4th Amendment. How are they not?

 

who would you hold accountable if these policies were not in place and something did happen? would you run around saying that the gov't isn't doing enough to protect us? you act like the NSA is tracking your every move, when in reality (from what I can gather), they look at a bunch of random numbers contacting other random numbers in various countries to see if there's a pattern...and if so, they request a warrant to gather more data on those numbers.

 

It's important to look at why it happened to prevent a repeat occurance. 9/11 happened because we have been bombing the Middle East for decades and these extremists decided to take revenge after literally watching and being able to do nothing as their loved ones died all around them.

 

I know the NSA is not following my Twitter updates or keeping tabs on my Facebook statuses. I'm upset about it because they are violating the Constitution and it's almost unanimously acceptable in Congress, the very people who vowed to uphold the Constitution when they got sworn in. Where does it stop?

[Rockets Revenge 0]

My assumption of the verizon/NSA deal is that data is exchanged hands when they see a pattern that needs to be investigated...do you honestly believe that the NSA is reading your texts?

 

RE: gov't employees and contraband...see response about the SSN's being sold. We live in an imperfect world.

 

Your assumption is based on what the government told you...do you honestly believe everything the government tells you? You hear on TV? You read on the internet? I'm a french model...Bonjour!!

 

So you are A'OK with the government walking all over the US C & BOR because after all it is an imperfect world? Interesting!!

[piratey 6]

My point is....and has been for the last 3 pages......that no one is giving up any rights. You may think you are but you aren't. Your privacy is still just as secure as it was before....

 

And the point a lot of people are making is... For now it's just as secure, but it's a slippery slope. The fact everything is being stored in the Utah Data Center, is very alarming...

 

remember this from Se7en?

http://i.imgur.com/zQ6GVZDl.jpg

Edited June 26, 2013 by piratey

[jessemoore97 1,291]

Congratulations!! You completely missed the point of the entire argument. What you said is all nice and true and make us all feel good however' date=' the real question is ... [b']Are you willing to give up your constitutional rights for an ineffective (at best) reactionary government agency?[/b]

 

Rocket, I never got into the arguments for or against the TSA and its effectiveness. I've never flown so I guess I don't have a dog in the fight because I've never been affected by the TSA's procedures. My sister worked for TSA within a year after 9/11 at our local airport, and was there 2-4 years before moving on to a correctional officer's job.

 

I was simply echoing, Echo's point, about how we in law enforcement, the military, and America in general are completely reactionary to the plans of terrorists and criminals. And that these individuals are not all uneducated camel jockey's or hillbillies from the backwoods. Some are, and even those blind squirrels find a nut every so often.

 

It's a very fine line and I am squarely in the middle on many of my thoughts on the matter(s). I can see both sides of the arguments being made. I don't believe I've argued for or against anything in my posts in the this topic. Just made additional points in the conversation based on my experience in LE over 15 years in dealing with the Feds first hand.

 

I have argued adamantly for 2nd Amendment rights, and how their erosion paves the way for other rights eroding away. Its no different from one right to the next. You take away a little for one and it could domino.

 

Personally I have found it hard in my life to pinpoint where exactly my freedoms and rights have eroded away with regard to this topic. Like I said I don't fly, so I can't b*tch. I know people complain about the government and big brother all the time and how personal freedom is eroding away. Yet how much of that freedom have we also given away to the private sector? I constantly hear about how speed/red light traffic cameras, and drones are an invasion of privacy and freedom. But there are millions upon millions of cameras everywhere in the US today, most are owned privately. They have, as I understand it, very little to no oversight on how those images are stored, viewed, or released. I feel that erodes my freedoms a bit. Certainly there are other examples out there.

 

 

I will say this, however cliche' it may sound, but there are people on our side who engage in activities that are/can be both heinous and grave in the defense of our country against foreign threats. I don't pretend to know exactly how they go about doing what they do to get the job done, and their accomplishments/successes will probably never see the light of day because of what they do and the how and why. I understand that somewhere out there, they exist and are there for a purpose, to protect me and other Americans....and I'm ok with that.

[jessemoore97 1,291]

I dunno man. How do I know some next Snowden freak isn't gonna take off and make public every porno site I visited?

 

How big of a storage unit going to be needed to contain all that? Would it even be fiscally worth the expense !

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Personally I have found it hard in my life to pinpoint where exactly my freedoms and rights have eroded away with regard to this topic. Like I said I don't fly, so I can't b*tch. I know people complain about the government and big brother all the time and how personal freedom is eroding away. Yet how much of that freedom have we also given away to the private sector? I constantly hear about how speed/red light traffic cameras, and drones are an invasion of privacy and freedom. But there are millions upon millions of cameras everywhere in the US today, most are owned privately. They have, as I understand it, very little to no oversight on how those images are stored, viewed, or released. I feel that erodes my freedoms a bit. Certainly there are other examples out there.

 

It has nothing to do with flying and everything to with our constitutional rights as American citizens. Elected officials are sworn to uphold our constitutional rights not violate them for what they define as "national security".

[ND3 0]

Proof that the data collected is also used for unethical means.

 

Key findings of this report include:

 

How law enforcement agencies active in the Arizona fusion
 center dispatched an undercover officer to infiltrate activist groups
 organizing both protests of the American Legislative Exchange Council 
(ALEC) and the launch of Occupy Phoenix and how the work of this 
undercover officer benefited ALEC and the private corporations that
 were the subjects of these demonstrations.



 

How fusion centers, funded in large part by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, expended countless hours and tax dollars in the monitoring of 
Occupy Wall Street and other activist groups.



How the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has financed
 social media "data mining" programs at local law enforcement agencies engaged in fusion centers.



 

How counter terrorism government employees applied facial
 recognition technology, drawing from a state database of driver's
 license photos, to photographs found on Facebook in the effort to 
profile citizens believed to be associated with activist groups.



 

How corporations have become part of the homeland security “information sharing environment” with law enforcement/intelligence agencies through various public-private intelligence sharing partnerships. The report examines multiple instances in which the counter terrorism/homeland security apparatus was used to gather intelligence relating to activists for the benefit of corporate interests that were the subject of protests.





How private groups and individuals, such as Charles Koch, 
Chase Koch (Charles' son and a Koch Industries executive), Koch 
Industries, and the Koch-funded American Legislative Exchange Council 
have hired off-duty police officers -- sometimes still armed and in
 police uniforms -- to perform the private security functions of keeping
 undesirables (reporters and activists) at bay.





How counter terrorism personnel monitored the protest
 activities of citizens opposed to the indefinite detention language
 contained in National Defense Authorization Act of 2012.

 

How the FBI applied "Operation Tripwire," an initiative
 originally intended to apprehend domestic terrorists through the use
 of private sector informants, in their monitoring of Occupy Wall 
Street groups. [Note: this issue was reported on exclusively by DBA/CMD in December, 2012.]

 

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Government_Surveillance_of_Occupy_Movement

[jessemoore97 1,291]

It has nothing to do with flying and everything to with our constitutional rights as American citizens. Elected officials are sworn to uphold our constitutional rights not violate them for what they define as "national security".

 

But we have restrictions on those rights already. We have the right to freedom of speech, but there are well placed restrictions on that freedom. Same thing with the right to bear arms. And numerous other examples. People have argued over those restrictions/erosion of our freedoms since the beginning. How do we interpret the rights granted to us? That's something legal scholars, the courts, politicians, and the public have been arguing over forever. Do we go strictly by what is written word for word with no further exploration or discussion about the interpreted meaning or intent of the original document?

 

The words "living and breathing document" are often associated with study of the Constitution on one side. While the other side goes entirely with the literal message provided. Which is it? Who is right? It's not an easy question to answer and make everyone happy, made subjectively by people who are far more educated and better than I. That's why I leave those decisions to those people. I can use my vote to try and change things. Why aren't all our laws uniform across the land? Why are Federal procedures and legal decisions handled differently in one area of the country vs another? The courts are tied up all over with contrary interpretations of the laws at all levels. Again who's right, who's wrong, and in 20 years watch it switch the other way and back again.

 

Its alarming to think of a totalitarian state. Do I think we are there yet, no. Are we heading that direction, I don't know. Technology is moving at light speed and for most, like me, its hard to wrap one's head around all the things that are going on and their future beneficial or nefarious consequences. Believe me the courts are having a difficult time keeping up with all the various possibilities and implications these technologies bring to the table. I don't see things being resolved quickly with black and white solutions either. And again this speaks to a reactionary society. We have to see what can happen and react to it for good or bad.

[Rockets Revenge 0]

But we have restrictions on those rights already. We have the right to freedom of speech, but there are well placed restrictions on that freedom. Same thing with the right to bear arms. And numerous other examples. People have argued over those restrictions/erosion of our freedoms since the beginning. How do we interpret the rights granted to us? That's something legal scholars, the courts, politicians, and the public have been arguing over forever. Do we go strictly by what is written word for word with no further exploration or discussion about the interpreted meaning or intent of the original document?

 

The words "living and breathing document" are often associated with study of the Constitution on one side. While the other side goes entirely with the literal message provided. Which is it? Who is right? It's not an easy question to answer and make everyone happy, made subjectively by people who are far more educated and better than I. That's why I leave those decisions to those people. I can use my vote to try and change things. Why aren't all our laws uniform across the land? Why are Federal procedures and legal decisions handled differently in one area of the country vs another? The courts are tied up all over with contrary interpretations of the laws at all levels. Again who's right, who's wrong, and in 20 years watch it switch the other way and back again.

 

Its alarming to think of a totalitarian state. Do I think we are there yet, no. Are we heading that direction, I don't know. Technology is moving at light speed and for most, like me, its hard to wrap one's head around all the things that are going on and their future beneficial or nefarious consequences. Believe me the courts are having a difficult time keeping up with all the various possibilities and implications these technologies bring to the table. I don't see things being resolved quickly with black and white solutions either. And again this speaks to a reactionary society. We have to see what can happen and react to it for good or bad.

 

Well put. This is a well informed post of the current state we are in. I agree with most of what you stated. I am against the further erosion of US citizens rights as stated in the Constitution by the US government and its agencies.

[Scotty88 0]

Well put. This is a well informed post of the current state we are in.

 

C'mon, "well informed" and Open Forum do not mix. You prove this daily.

 

I do find it funny to hear the conservative preach about civil liberties. Do you feel that way when the GOP prays for rain on election day?

[echo88 74]

Proof that the data collected is also used for unethical means.

 

 

 

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Government_Surveillance_of_Occupy_Movement

 

None of that has anything to do with the NSA or its mission.

[echo88 74]

And the point a lot of people are making is... For now it's just as secure, but it's a slippery slope. The fact everything is being stored in the Utah Data Center, is very alarming...

 

remember this from Se7en?

http://i.imgur.com/zQ6GVZDl.jpg

 

Dang piratey, you're really hung up on this Utah site huh? Picture this. Even when considering the relatively small number of questionable figures in the U.S. with ties to terrorism, keeping all of their data for analysis requires a significant increase in storage capability. We simply don't have that right now. Just think of their correspondence day in and day out. Consider adding the correspondence of those they communicate with. Consider adding their families. It's fair to assume that they might be affiliated with or aiding the effort, no? Think that's still a small amount of data? Now consider what it would take to compile that info for years. I bet the current site couldn't even hold a single day's worth of correspondence for an entire large city, let alone the U.S. If you had any idea how much data was exchanged in a single day in the U.S., the notion that this Utah facility will be used to maintain data on everyone would seem ridiculous....even despite its capacity. I have no idea what it's going to be used for, but just from a numbers crunch, it's definitely not what you think it's for....

Edited June 26, 2013 by echo88

[jessemoore97 1,291]

Well put. This is a well informed post of the current state we are in. I agree with most of what you stated. I am against the further erosion of US citizens rights as stated in the Constitution by the US government and its agencies.

 

I don't want further erosion either. I'm just not 100% certain that's its occurring to the extent many think it is, and that's not just centering only on this particular topic. Of course erosion by its very nature is gradual.

 

I just don't know. Unfortunately its hard to tell what exactly is or isn't happening because everyone is shouting down the other side and its hard to tell who or what is giving accurate information. Its frustrating for everyone because we are so cynical as a society these days and so conspiracy minded. No one believes anyone or anything. That is by design IMO, thanks in part by lax standards and professionalism within the media amongst other things.

[piratey 6]

Dang piratey, you're really hung up on this Utah site huh? Picture this. Even when considering the relatively small number of questionable figures in the U.S. with ties to terrorism, keeping all of their data for analysis requires a significant increase in storage capability. We simply don't have that right now. Just think of their correspondence day in and day out. Consider adding the correspondence of those they communicate with. Consider adding their families. It's fair to assume that they might be affiliated with or aiding the effort, no? Think that's still a small amount of data? Now consider what it would take to compile that info for years. I bet the current site couldn't even hold a single day's worth of correspondence for an entire large city, let alone the U.S. If you had any idea how much data was exchanged in a single day in the U.S., the notion that this Utah facility will be used to maintain data on everyone would seem ridiculous....even despite its capacity. I have no idea what it's going to be used for, but just from a numbers crunch, it's definitely not what you think it's for....

 

At launch the site is going to hold 5 zettabytes of data

 

One zettabyte is equal to storage capacity of 62.5billion iPhones

http://foxnewsinsider.com/sites/foxnewsinsider.com/files/styles/780/public/Zettabyte.jpg?itok=EkDJ56HK

This place hold 5 zettabytes

 

At launch they are going to be able to keep every email, google search, credit card transaction of every American for a period of 10 years....

 

So this whole thing works like this, in order to target specific persons, you need to keep the records of EVERYONE. And the promise now is that the NSA will only collect that data(which is legal under the current law) but will only use it if we have a warrant. So in this Utah Data Center, they are going to collect and sort every American's data This $2billion data center's capacity is going to grow, so everything you do is going into the bank with the promise that they won't do anything with it unless you give them reason.

 

Once the mining programs are written to sort through the vast ocean of data, they'll be able to know everything about you. Who you call. Where you go. What you buy. What your hobbies are. Your secrets. Everything. If they need it, they will have access to it...Scary, scary stuff.

[jessemoore97 1,291]

Dang piratey, you're really hung up on this Utah site huh? Picture this. Even when considering the relatively small number of questionable figures in the U.S. with ties to terrorism, keeping all of their data for analysis requires a significant increase in storage capability. We simply don't have that right now. Just think of their correspondence day in and day out. Consider adding the correspondence of those they communicate with. Consider adding their families. It's fair to assume that they might be affiliated with or aiding the effort, no? Think that's still a small amount of data? Now consider what it would take to compile that info for years. I bet the current site couldn't even hold a single day's worth of correspondence for an entire large city, let alone the U.S. If you had any idea how much data was exchanged in a single day in the U.S., the notion that this Utah facility will be used to maintain data on everyone would seem ridiculous....even despite its capacity. I have no idea what it's going to be used for, but just from a numbers crunch, it's definitely not what you think it's for....

 

 

I can jump onto this as well. I've had numerous investigations where I've had to secure phone info, text messages, etc for days and weeks(through warrants ) on a suspect or group of them. My old squad and I could spent a couple nights digging through all that crap just to find items pertaining to our investigations. Its very tedious and time consuming, and believe me does not alway work out the way you hoped to further your case. You wouldn't believe the amount of texts young people can send on a day to day basis! I'm talking about hundreds of pages sometimes covering a weeks worth.

[nd1baby 0]

There's some other storage facility in Houston too I believe.

[echo88 74]

At launch the site is going to hold 5 zettabytes of data

 

One zettabyte is equal to storage capacity of 62.5billion iPhones

http://foxnewsinsider.com/sites/foxnewsinsider.com/files/styles/780/public/Zettabyte.jpg?itok=EkDJ56HK

This place hold 5 zettabytes

 

At launch they are going to be able to keep every email, google search, credit card transaction of every American for a period of 10 years....

 

So this whole thing works like this, in order to target specific persons, you need to keep the records of EVERYONE. And the promise now is that the NSA will only collect that data(which is legal under the current law) but will only use it if we have a warrant. So in this Utah Data Center, they are going to collect and sort every American's data This $2billion data center's capacity is going to grow, so everything you do is going into the bank with the promise that they won't do anything with it unless you give them reason.

 

Once the mining programs are written to sort through the vast ocean of data, they'll be able to know everything about you. Who you call. Where you go. What you buy. What your hobbies are. Your secrets. Everything. If they need it, they will have access to it...Scary, scary stuff.

 

Sorry but I don't buy that. That's speculative at best. You're not factoring in worldwide collection or military collection and that's the primary focus of the agency to begin with. Also, you're not factoring in what is already stored at the current site(s), which will likely be transferred to Utah. It's an agency site, so the collection of the U.S. data to begin with is illegal. You can only collect on court approved persons of interest, piratey. It's what we are doing now and it's all we will ever be allowed to do. Makes for a good story though.

Edited June 26, 2013 by echo88