Charge him with Treason

[echo88 74]

Based on the number and severity of the issues I previously outlined it is painfully obvious to even the most casual observer that the TSA causes more problems than they prevent. Apparently your desk is in the middle of the trees and you can't see the forest!!

 

Causes more problems than they prevent? Clearly you have no idea what is being prevented or your mind would be changed. Also, by this logic, Illinois taxpayers should just do away with the Chicago PD. They have tons of issues with their officers behavior and disciplinary procedures yet they are being paid for with tax dollars despite rises in crime. Would you eliminate them?

 

There's no doubt TSA could be run better with sweeping reform, but my responses were more directed at ND3's assertion that we just eliminate it altogether.

[echo88 74]

As I posted before (with sources), there are not checks in place. The FISA courts virtually never turn a request from the NSA.

 

The system IS being abused, and Snowden showed that.

 

People are standing by and watching as we head towards an Orwellian surveillance state. The terrorists have won. We live in fear.

 

I've said my peace on the topic and I'm done debating. All I have left to contribute is to rehash what I've already said.

 

This is a blatant misuse of power and money. It completely disregards the Constitution of the United States and it is patently illegal. If we can't trust the US government to follow their own laws, their own Constitution, what can we trust them to do?

 

Then move to Canada. Or Ecuador. Seriously. Im sorry you don't like the way we are going about identifying terrorists hiding in our country but the alternative of not doing it is both unrealistic and quite frankly, selfish.

Edited June 26, 2013 by echo88

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Al Qaeda stop trying? Lol that's never going to happen and that isn't the goal of TSA. Here's the goal: When months and months of planning has gone into a detailed and elaborate attack, are they going to hinge the potential for failure on the risk of getting additional screening? Probably not. And that is success. TSA has to be reactive because you can never fully predict/eliminate all ways to attack us. What I mean is, after 9/11 we had no reason to escalate into a million dollar full body scanner because bombs woven into underwear and shoes were an unforeseen threat. We were trying to eliminate weapons like box cutters aboard aircraft. Body scanners factor a LOT of the 7.6 billion dollars you said were a waste and at the time there was no reason to shoot flies with a rocket launcher. It's easy to say "we should have seen that coming" after the fact.....

 

I can still observe TSA procedures and find a dozen ways to get something through by capitalizing on areas where they're screwed. Baby formula? Yeah, you can't ever stop allowing that on flights. Kids and old people dont have to take their shoes off anymore because of public outcry? Well that's easy. You force a family with members who fit the bill to do your bidding for you---wittingly or unwittingly. It sucks, but there are still ways to attack us that we already know about. The question is whether or not AQ can afford to sink the money and time into a plot that could randomly be foiled by TSA.....

 

OH COME ON!!! You can do better than that!! So, you are trying to tell us NOBODY within the TSA is forward thinking enough to be able to predict/eliminate potential secenarios that terrorists could get around our current procedures/screening? So, a bunch of mostly uneducated arabs living in the middle east are smarter than all of the money and resources the US government has? Damn echo, your rationale in this argument has severly disappointed me...

 

Causes more problems than they prevent? Clearly you have no idea what is being prevented or your mind would be changed. Also, by this logic, Illinois taxpayers should just do away with the Chicago PD. They have tons of issues with their officers behavior and disciplinary procedures yet they are being paid for with tax dollars despite rises in crime. Would you eliminate them?

 

Typical strawman argument...instead of answereing the question at hand or admitting you may be wrong divert the attention of readers by throwing out another totally unrelated scenario question.

 

There's no doubt TSA could be run better with sweeping reform, but my responses were more directed at ND3's assertion that we just eliminate it altogether.

 

So, basically you are admitting that the TSA & NSA are corrupt and ineffective and your opinion of their effectiveness is skewed by the bias you have as an employee of one of these agencies....

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Then move to Canada. Or Ecuador. Seriously. Im sorry you don't like the way we are going about identifying terrorists hiding in our country but the alternative of not doing it is both unrealistic and quite frankly, selfish.

 

Sorry your agency doesn't believe in following the US Constitution and Bill of Rights?? I'm afraid it is you that needs to move to another country my friend...

[echo88 74]

OH COME ON!!! You can do better than that!! So, you are trying to tell us NOBODY within the TSA is forward thinking enough to be able to predict/eliminate potential secenarios that terrorists could get around our current procedures/screening? So, a bunch of mostly uneducated arabs living in the middle east are smarter than all of the money and resources the US government has? Damn echo, your rationale in this argument has severly disappointed me...

 

 

 

Typical strawman argument...instead of answereing the question at hand or admitting you may be wrong divert the attention of readers by throwing out another totally unrelated scenario question.

 

 

 

So, basically you are admitting that the TSA & NSA are corrupt and ineffective and your opinion of their effectiveness is skewed by the bias you have as an employee of one of these agencies....

 

First of all, TSA only implements procedures. They don't come up with anything. You are seriously misguided about who we are fighting. These aren't uneducated arabs. In fact, a lot of them benefit from a high end college education in, you guessed it.....the U.S. You are confusing the Taliban with Al Qaeda. Two of the 9/11 hijackers had PhDs. Do you have one? I don't. Im not saying they are geniuses. They dont need to be. They just need determination and creativity. It's the same reason that the billions we have thrown at border security still can't deter the impoverished immigrant hell bent on a better life. What you expect is completely unreasonable because it represents only a small fraction of securing the U.S. yet you expect that we are supposed to dedicate endless resources to it.

 

I tell you what. We can run an experiment. You draw up a list of all of the ways in which I can break into your house. I bet I can double your list. The problem here is that they have months to focus on a single point of identified weakness whereas we are expected to eliminate all of them.

[ND3 0]

Then move to Canada. Or Ecuador. Seriously. Im sorry you don't like the way we are going about identifying terrorists hiding in our country but the alternative of not doing it is both unrealistic and quite frankly, selfish.

 

As an American citizen, I have the right/responsibility to make my voice heard when atrocities are committed.

 

"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."

Abraham Lincoln

 

"Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step over the ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! -- All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a Thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

Abraham Lincoln

 

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?" - Thomas Jefferson

 

"Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master."

Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

Benjamin Franklin

 

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."

Patrick Henry

 

"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."

James Madison

 

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."

Theodore Roosevelt

[echo88 74]

As an American citizen, I have the right/responsibility to make my voice heard when atrocities are committed.

 

"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."

Abraham Lincoln

 

"Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step over the ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! -- All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a Thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

Abraham Lincoln

 

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?" - Thomas Jefferson

 

"Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master."

Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

Benjamin Franklin

 

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."

Patrick Henry

 

"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."

James Madison

 

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does NOT mean to stand by the President or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country."

Theodore Roosevelt

 

Aaah but the difference between you and those noble figures is that they actually did something to facilitate their causes. They didn't just sit back like "Hey make sure you write this down for my NoBama blog!". Im still waiting for your ideas of how to catch terrorists using our cellular infrastructure and internet access without mining data. I guess the patriotic thing to do would be to just let attacks happen.

Edited June 26, 2013 by echo88

[ND3 0]

Aaah but the difference between you and those noble figures is that they actually did something to facilitate their causes. They didn't just sit back like "Hey make sure you write this down for my NoBama blog!". Im still waiting for your ideas of how to catch terrorists using our cellular infrastructure and internet access without mining data. I guess the patriotic thing to do would be to just let attacks happen.

 

If these things are completely necessary, as you say, we should have no issue repealing the 4th Amendment to make them happen.

 

Echo logic- If someone posts their opinion on a message board, that's their only form of activism. I see no flaws there. Move along.

 

You don't know me or anything about me. I don't need to give you my resume to make my opinions valid.

[jessemoore97 1,291]

First of all, TSA only implements procedures. They don't come up with anything. You are seriously misguided about who we are fighting. These aren't uneducated arabs. In fact, a lot of them benefit from a high end college education in, you guessed it.....the U.S. You are confusing the Taliban with Al Qaeda. Two of the 9/11 hijackers had PhDs. Do you have one? I don't. Im not saying they are geniuses. They dont need to be. They just need determination and creativity. It's the same reason that the billions we have thrown at border security still can't deter the impoverished immigrant hell bent on a better life. What you expect is completely unreasonable because it represents only a small fraction of securing the U.S. yet you expect that we are supposed to dedicate endless resources to it.

 

I tell you what. We can run an experiment. You draw up a list of all of the ways in which I can break into your house. I bet I can double your list. The problem here is that they have months to focus on a single point of identified weakness whereas we are expected to eliminate all of them.

 

Couldn't agree with you more Echo. These guys aren't dumb. There's a reason they have a leadership structure, and why those leaders are cowards and aren't(for the most part) martyring themselves. Someone has to concoct the plans for new ways to bomb, murder, and spread chaos. Additionally these folks have been practicing their craft for decades now. They understand what is or isn't successful because what they have practiced in real life all over the world.

 

America, the military, and law enforcement as a whole is entirely reactionary in its response to threats both foreign and domestic. Hindsight is always 20/20 on what we woulda, coulda, shoulda done and how painfully obvious it would have been for us to see what was coming, while looking through the lenses of the past. There are always going to be loopholes, lax in security, and inability to forward think. Any one of those could be exploited by someone with a PhD or a complete simpleton, it happens. Lord knows you don't want it to because the consequences can be disasterous.

 

I love how people casually believe that we should be able to out think the bad guy and always be a step ahead of them while trying to cover everything ourselves. We cannot possibly account for every possibility. I find it amusing, even in my own job, trying to put myself in the mind of the bad guy and predict how he's going to plot his crimes. I've had some success, but am far from even hitting anywhere close to a respectable AVG in catching these guys in the act or prior to. Build a better mouse trap only to see it defeated by a smarter more cunning rodent eventually. Darwinism at its best and worst unfortunately.

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Couldn't agree with you more Echo. These guys aren't dumb. There's a reason they have a leadership structure, and why those leaders are cowards and aren't(for the most part) martyring themselves. Someone has to concoct the plans for new ways to bomb, murder, and spread chaos. Additionally these folks have been practicing their craft for decades now. They understand what is or isn't successful because what they have practiced in real life all over the world.

 

America, the military, and law enforcement as a whole is entirely reactionary in its response to threats both foreign and domestic. Hindsight is always 20/20 on what we woulda, coulda, shoulda done and how painfully obvious it would have been for us to see what was coming, while looking through the lenses of the past. There are always going to be loopholes, lax in security, and inability to forward think. Any one of those could be exploited by someone with a PhD or a complete simpleton, it happens. Lord knows you don't want it to because the consequences can be disasterous.

 

I love how people casually believe that we should be able to out think the bad guy and always be a step ahead of them while trying to cover everything ourselves. We cannot possibly account for every possibility. I find it amusing, even in my own job, trying to put myself in the mind of the bad guy and predict how he's going to plot his crimes. I've had some success, but am far from even hitting anywhere close to a respectable AVG in catching these guys in the act or prior to. Build a better mouse trap only to see it defeated by a smarter more cunning rodent eventually. Darwinism at its best and worst unfortunately.

 

Congratulations!! You completely missed the point of the entire argument. What you said is all nice and true and make us all feel good however, the real question is ... Are you willing to give up your constitutional rights for an ineffective (at best) reactionary government agency?

[echo88 74]

If these things are completely necessary, as you say, we should have no issue repealing the 4th Amendment to make them happen.

 

Echo logic- If someone posts their opinion on a message board, that's their only form of activism. I see no flaws there. Move along.

 

You don't know me or anything about me. I don't need to give you my resume to make my opinions valid.

 

I didn't ask for your resume. I asked for your alternatives. It's easier to question how things are done when you don't bother to offer more suitable options. Let me caveat that request with the fact that doing nothing will result in chaos and mass destruction/death. Ok, now go.

[echo88 74]

Congratulations!! You completely missed the point of the entire argument. What you said is all nice and true and make us all feel good however' date=' the real question is ... [b']Are you willing to give up your constitutional rights for an ineffective (at best) reactionary government agency?[/b]

 

My point is....and has been for the last 3 pages......that no one is giving up any rights. You may think you are but you aren't. Your privacy is still just as secure as it was before....

[nd1baby 0]

My point is....and has been for the last 3 pages......that no one is giving up any rights. You may think you are but you aren't. Your privacy is still just as secure as it was before....

 

I dunno man. How do I know some next Snowden freak isn't gonna take off and make public every porno site I visited?

[ND3 0]

I didn't ask for your resume. I asked for your alternatives. It's easier to question how things are done when you don't bother to offer more suitable options. Let me caveat that request with the fact that doing nothing will result in chaos and mass destruction/death. Ok, now go.

 

Chaos and mass destruction/death occur in the countries where we intervene. The United States has never had those conditions. What evidence do you have to make those claims?

 

My alternative- we follow our laws. It's not that difficult.

 

Do you think we should repeal the 4th Amendment or should we just pretend that it doesn't exist?

[echo88 74]

I dunno man. How do I know some next Snowden freak isn't gonna take off and make public every porno site I visited?

 

Because that would take an entire swing shift working weekends to compile. In all seriousness, the fact that you visit porn sites wouldn't be known unless you spend your jerk breaks logging into established jihad websites or skyping with militants in Somalia. And even then, you're still a series of numbers....identity still unknown. That's when we would have to get a court order to access your surfing and to figure out what the hell you're doing in the U.S. That is just how many layers have to be peeled away. It's ridiculous.

[stdntDrvr 12]

Chaos and mass destruction/death occur in the countries where we intervene. The United States has never had those conditions. What evidence do you have to make those claims?

 

My alternative- we follow our laws. It's not that difficult.

 

Do you think we should repeal the 4th Amendment or should we just pretend that it doesn't exist?

 

 

who would you hold accountable if these policies were not in place and something did happen? would you run around saying that the gov't isn't doing enough to protect us? you act like the NSA is tracking your every move, when in reality (from what I can gather), they look at a bunch of random numbers contacting other random numbers in various countries to see if there's a pattern...and if so, they request a warrant to gather more data on those numbers.

[Rockets Revenge 0]

My point is....and has been for the last 3 pages......that no one is giving up any rights. You may think you are but you aren't. Your privacy is still just as secure as it was before....

 

So, having my nuts fondled by a TSA agent named Leroy during a required security screen at LAX isn't giving up my rights? TSA members selling SSN's isn't giving up rights? Having my phone records turned over by Verizon to the NSA isn't giving up my rights? Having a government agency steal my luggage while travelling isn't giving up my rights? Members of a government agency allowing contraband on commercial airplanes for payment isn't giving up my rights?

 

WOW!! You have a completely different understanding of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights than I, most Americans, and our founding fathers do/did.

[echo88 74]

Chaos and mass destruction/death occur in the countries where we intervene. The United States has never had those conditions. What evidence do you have to make those claims?

 

My alternative- we follow our laws. It's not that difficult.

 

Do you think we should repeal the 4th Amendment or should we just pretend that it doesn't exist?

 

Ummm 9/11 and the hundreds of foiled attempts thereafter are sufficient evidence I should think. DIRNSA only listed 50 that have been thwarted with our existing formula. We are following the laws.

[echo88 74]

So, having my nuts fondled by a TSA agent named Leroy during a required security screen at LAX isn't giving up my rights? TSA members selling SSN's isn't giving up rights? Having my phone records turned over by Verizon to the NSA isn't giving up my rights? Having a government agency steal my luggage while travelling isn't giving up my rights? Members of a government agency allowing contraband on commercial airplanes for payment isn't giving up my rights?

 

WOW!! You have a completely different understanding of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights than I, most Americans, and our founding fathers do/did.

 

You have the right to take a car if you don't like it. Flying is an option. Not a requirement and certainly not a right. It is not offered by nor sponsored by the government. Verizon only gave up info on subscribers who had suspected ties to terrorism. You are not one of these people.

 

It sounds like you just don't like to travel. I have never had any problems beyond delayed flights, which have nothing to do with TSA.

Edited June 26, 2013 by echo88

[stdntDrvr 12]

So, having my nuts fondled by a TSA agent named Leroy during a required security screen at LAX isn't giving up my rights? TSA members selling SSN's isn't giving up rights? Having my phone records turned over by Verizon to the NSA isn't giving up my rights? Having a government agency steal my luggage while travelling isn't giving up my rights? Members of a government agency allowing contraband on commercial airplanes for payment isn't giving up my rights?

 

WOW!! You have a completely different understanding of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights than I, most Americans, and our founding fathers do/did.

 

First off, flying is not a right it is a privilege. Secondly, ensuring safetly on an airline is the gov't's responsibility...so if you don't like their tactics, don't fly.

 

RE: SSN's being sold...you don't think that the person/people found doing that isn't being punished? What if that was done at the IRS, would you want to abolish them as well? There are tons of people with access to your SSN...most good, some bad...it's the risk that was taken when that system was implemented and the use of that number was expanded.

 

My assumption of the verizon/NSA deal is that data is exchanged hands when they see a pattern that needs to be investigated...do you honestly believe that the NSA is reading your texts?

 

RE: gov't employees and contraband...see response about the SSN's being sold. We live in an imperfect world.