ND 2024 QB

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

So arm strength in terms of Velocity is a question with Riley Leonard

 

I think most would rank Velocity as

1. Carr

2. Minchey

3. Angeli

 

Here's an Article about Leonard. What are your thoughts on his arm strength in terms of velocity?

 

https://www.on3.com/college/duke-blue-devils/news/nfl-draft-experts-discuss-riley-leonard-best-traits-biggest-concerns/

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

Just for reference, Brett Farve is widely accepted as having a very strong arm

 

[Baldy 1,225]

1 hour ago, FaithInIrish Forever said:

So arm strength in terms of Velocity is a question with Riley Leonard

 

I think most would rank Velocity as

1. Carr

2. Minchey

3. Angeli

 

Here's an Article about Leonard. What are your thoughts on his arm strength in terms of velocity?

 

https://www.on3.com/college/duke-blue-devils/news/nfl-draft-experts-discuss-riley-leonard-best-traits-biggest-concerns/

I think we’ll be able to have a better determination once he plays in a pro style offense, and takes more deep shots down field.

[jessemoore97 1,271]

3 hours ago, FaithInIrish Forever said:

So arm strength in terms of Velocity is a question with Riley Leonard

 

I think most would rank Velocity as

1. Carr

2. Minchey

3. Angeli

 

Here's an Article about Leonard. What are your thoughts on his arm strength in terms of velocity?

 

https://www.on3.com/college/duke-blue-devils/news/nfl-draft-experts-discuss-riley-leonard-best-traits-biggest-concerns/

I mentioned before that I had questions about Leonard's arm strength/velocity.  I've watched him play a bit the past two seasons.  Like the article mentioned, Duke didn't throw downfield a ton,  so we are limited in the evaluation.  Additionally what's his timing like for downfield shots if he hasn't been asked to do it much?

What I do like about his passing is that he is pretty good with the short and intermediate routes.  Duke uses a lot of screens, something we didn't do a lot this year at least against stiffer defenses. 

Hartman had good timing and a penchant for wanting to make deep throws, but if they weren't there he struggled with the shorter routes and screens.  Some of our inability to hit the deep throws was because of our WR inability to get open and limited bodies.

I hope Denbrock works with Leonard on the deeper stuff.  It's not a deal breaker IMO, if he's not proficient though.  With the bigger bodies at TE and the WR like Jayden Thomas and Beau Collins, those guys can be reliable to move the chains and make plays for extra yards because of their size.  Meanwhile guys like Faison, Greathouse, and the RB can be effective with the quick slants and screens.

Leonard obviously is a running threat, so he can roll out and run or pass.  Which will be useful with a young OL, rather than staying in the pocket.

[AnTostal 762]

3 hours ago, FaithInIrish Forever said:

So arm strength in terms of Velocity is a question with Riley Leonard

 

I think most would rank Velocity as

1. Carr

2. Minchey

3. Angeli

 

Here's an Article about Leonard. What are your thoughts on his arm strength in terms of velocity?

 

https://www.on3.com/college/duke-blue-devils/news/nfl-draft-experts-discuss-riley-leonard-best-traits-biggest-concerns/

I HATE the arm strength discussion. Give me a guy who wins. That is the only metric I care about. 
Give me a guy who understands the offense, what the coaches are doing, the strengths and weaknesses of the players on his team, recognizes defenses at the line of scrimmage, makes appropriate changes to the play that was called, understands the game situation and the clock, AND has the strength AND accuracy to get the ball where it needs to go on any given play. 
Give me THAT guy. Arm strength matters. But not independently from all of those other traits. 

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

7 hours ago, AnTostal said:

I HATE the arm strength discussion. Give me a guy who wins. That is the only metric I care about. 
Give me a guy who understands the offense, what the coaches are doing, the strengths and weaknesses of the players on his team, recognizes defenses at the line of scrimmage, makes appropriate changes to the play that was called, understands the game situation and the clock, AND has the strength AND accuracy to get the ball where it needs to go on any given play. 
Give me THAT guy. Arm strength matters. But not independently from all of those other traits. 

Arm strength and speed. Physical traits that drive us Notre Dame fans nuts  but give Tommy Rees a player like Milroe who has both and he's in the playoffs. Buchner had speed but not enough arm strength and he struggled at Bama and is now out of the sport of Football. So these are uncomfortable but necessary conversations.

[NDhoosier 1,226]

8 hours ago, AnTostal said:

I HATE the arm strength discussion. Give me a guy who wins. That is the only metric I care about. 
Give me a guy who understands the offense, what the coaches are doing, the strengths and weaknesses of the players on his team, recognizes defenses at the line of scrimmage, makes appropriate changes to the play that was called, understands the game situation and the clock, AND has the strength AND accuracy to get the ball where it needs to go on any given play. 
Give me THAT guy. Arm strength matters. But not independently from all of those other traits. 

I do agree that Arm strength is often times an overrated measure of a QBs worth. It definitely can help as it allows the QB to make more throws and expands the field for the defense to have to cover. However, there have been a lot of QBs in college that come in with big arms, but cannot read a defense, has little accuracy, and forces throws that they should not.

[TexasDomer 1,286]

14 hours ago, FaithInIrish Forever said:

Just for reference, Brett Farve is widely accepted as having a very strong arm

 

So was Jamarcus Russell

[irishwavend 566]

Montana didn’t have a ton of arm strength compared to peers like Elway and Marino, if I recall.  As long as he doesn’t have an arm as weak as Tommy’s, you can make it work.  I absolutely love Angeli’s soft throws.  He makes a deep pass look so easy and smooth and drops it in the bucket.  He’s too calm though…needs a little bit of fear so he doesn’t take sacks.

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

7 hours ago, irishwavend said:

Montana didn’t have a ton of arm strength compared to peers like Elway and Marino, if I recall.  As long as he doesn’t have an arm as weak as Tommy’s, you can make it work.  I absolutely love Angeli’s soft throws.  He makes a deep pass look so easy and smooth and drops it in the bucket.  He’s too calm though…needs a little bit of fear so he doesn’t take sacks.

Here's the way I look at it. A lack of Arm Strength in terms of velocity forces coaches to make gameplans that can be defended. Montana found Bill Walsh. Bill Walsh founded the West Coast offense while coaching for Paul Brown. It was a reaction to the Bears defense with Buddy Ryan. Passes used to be only a deep shot 7 steps or more and the guy went long. Bill Walsh knew that the blitz was taking a man out of coverage. Given precise footwork and timing you could  win the race with the blitz with shorter precise synced up routes. Then the Buddy Ryan Blitz heavy defense went away and defenses spent 20 years learning a middle ground to cover the west coast offense. They have covered it.

 

The offensive answer was  to move the QB back in the shotgun like single wing days. At first there were running QBs than Michael Vick came along who was an ELITE RUNNER and PASSER. Moved Virginia Tech to number 1. Virginia Tech! Obviously off the field stuff derailed his promising career. But he showed a glimpse of something different.

 

So it becomes whether we settle for convention or look for the pattern disrupting  player that changes the course of football as we know it. Rees an Bama are looking. I think ND should too.

[jbrown_9999 1,006]

Ability to read defense, process a lot of data, and make a quick decision is a key attribute for NFL QBs. A quick release and strong arm helps as well.

College QBs can be successful without checking all of the boxes but it sure helps to have both the mental and physical tools.

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

The gameplan that Angeli won the Sunbowl with featured alot of this.

 

@irishwavend This is the Walsh/Montana stuff from shotgun. Its all good against Oregon State off man/zone defense, When Ohio State's corners were in tight man against it though we needed Jerry Rice or John Taylor. Hopefully Cam Williams and the transfers put more fear in corners deep.

[NDLincPark 28]

You guys are basing Angeli's competence off of a single scrimmage/exhibition game- just stop

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

@NDLincPark what other data would you have me use?

I  broke down his conditions for success: Concepts like SNAG(video above) where he reads half the field and usually 1 defender and throws the ball quickly.

 

I recognize his disadvantages

Ball placement

Arm Strength(velocity)

 

 

But when i see strength i will say say that  too.

1. Poise

2. Pocket presence

3. Throwing on the run.

 

Why is it wrong to celebrate a Sun Bowl Victory when the players work so hard for it?

 

 

[NDLincPark 28]

13 minutes ago, FaithInIrish Forever said:

@NDLincPark what other data would you have me use?

I  broke down his conditions for success: Concepts like SNAG(video above) where he reads half the field and usually 1 defender and throws the ball quickly.

 

I recognize his disadvantages

Ball placement

Arm Strength(velocity)

 

 

But when i see strength i will say say that  too.

1. Poise

2. Pocket presence

3. Throwing on the run.

 

Why is it wrong to celebrate a Sun Bowl Victory when the players work so hard for it?

 

 

No one is saying you cant 'celebrate the win'   But, it would be very short-sided, and frankly dumb, to use any of the game tape as meaningful.  It was an exhibition scrimmage type game - just like last years bowl

Edited January 2 by NDLincPark

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

@NDLincPark According to Freeman's press conferences he treats it as 13 competitive opportunities so I will follow his lead, Feel free to have your point of view as well. No need to place a value judgment on any other fans opinion.

You can state your opinion while not judging any one elses. Your opinion is valuable but it is EQUAL to all others.

[jbrown_9999 1,006]

For what it is worth, not only did Oregon St have most of their opt outs on offense, ND was also short-handed on their O as well. So a quick (but not 100% accurate) summary would be ND's mainly second string offense did well playing against Oregon St's 1st and 2nd string defense. In that light, the offensive success might not be so quickly dismissed as the result of a glorified "scrimmage".

It might be better to "pump the brakes" due to concern that the results were heavily influenced by the Irish having a new play caller on offense along with there being no tape of Angelli to plan against. Or you can celebrate the glass being half full and just enjoy the results for awhile without being a negative Nancy.

[AnTostal 762]

59 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

the results were heavily influenced by the Irish having a new play caller on offense along with there being no tape of Angelli to plan against. 

Those are a couple of strong points.

Angeli had a very good day.  Worth celebrating, whether you're a member of the Angeli family or the ND family.  

Is Angeli the future of ND at QB?  Not likely.  But clearly he can play.  ND will have some good competition for the starting QB position during spring and summer practices.  They will have a solid QB room, no matter who stays and who transfers.  

Now ND has a proven OC.  That matters.  I'm really looking forward to next year, regardless of who the QB is.  Good, perhaps great, coaching, good/solid QB's all around, a fantastic group of running backs, a very good offensive line (I think), and hungry receivers.  Mix in a schedule that is ripe for picking, and ND should have an exceptional year.

[Baldy 1,225]

 

[FaithInIrish Forever 4,701]

I'm sure the article motioned isn't free but the tweets are

Here your seeing Leonard with a boundary throw with down the close sideline. I will say this tells me that the coaches he had at that time were confident enough in his velocity. Wait for my reasoning. If the 1st read here the boundary deep throw is taken away any of those other  3 throws are pretty long. Boundary go for the offense like short corner blitz for the defense are in every playbook. The 3 other routes are mostly distraction.