Can we all agree that Obama is better than GW Bush?

[Rockets Revenge 0]

This tradition started in the 1950's. I perceive this to be the beginning of the "anti-non-Christian" stigma we still see today.

 

Actually it was approved in 1863, first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864, and was on ALL US coins by 1938. I believe you are thinking of the national motto as "In God We Trust" was identified as the national motto in 1956.

 

Source: US Treasury website

 

Your perceptions do not equal reality.

 

Of course people will still spend the money. It's kind of required for basic human needs. The government needs to stick to printing money and leave religion out of it.

 

So you are saying it is OK for you to violate your beliefs if it meets your needs. Sounds hypocritical to me, but that is your choice.

 

This is a common misonception. The Quakers were the only ones who left Europe for religious reasons, and they left because people were being "too liberal" with other religions. They wanted to be able to practice without the burden of having to deal with other people and their pesky religious beliefs.

 

Hmmm, well I guess all of historical academia including the University of Virginia is just teaching some big misconception and in fact you are the one that has a PhD in History that really matters OR it is more convenient for you to try to change history to meet your anti-Christian stance. Now which one seems more logical?

 

Source: University of Virginia website (This is the same university started by Thomas Jefferson....one of our founding fathers that you don't believe wanted the US to have anything to do with Christianity

 

Source? This doesn't seem right at all... Here's what a quick google search brought up: http://greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/colonial-bibles.html

 

Source

 

and a Wiki entry

 

 

So? Nobody is arguing that there isn't a strong Christian tradition in the United States. People seem to be losing sight of the strong tradition of religious tolerance that has been kicked to the curb in the last 60 years.

 

Really?? Because to me there are many more examples of Christianity being kicked to the curb over the last 60 years. It is even looked down upon to be a Christian by many people in this country.

 

Most of our founding fathers were, indeed, Christians. However, many were deists and some were atheists *gasp*. For the purpose of creating a new country/government, they identified themselves with their new country before any religion. Hell, John Q. Adams swore in on a book laws rather than a Bible. That being said, it doesn't really matter what the founding fathers thought the government should be. They made a "living document" in the Constitution so that, as times change, so could the laws of the country. The Bill of Rights still proclaims that Congress shall make no laws based on religion, essentially creating a separation of church and state (per Thomas Jefferson). Sure, there is a strong tradition of Christianity in America. Are you saying that Christianity should be the national religion of the United States? If not, what point are you trying to make here?

 

Agreed, most of them were Christians and Christianity (along with other religions and religious freedom) has been built into the fabric of this nation since its inception. My point is don't try to remove Christianity from the American way of life and culture. If that is your goal then you need to find a new country to live in because your views aren't in line with what America was built on.

 

I told myself that I would stay off this thread when it immediately devolved into petty name-calling and childish arguing, but this post really grinded my gears.

 

Probably should have followed that voice in your head and saved yourself the embarrassment.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Rocket's Revenge

[Scotty88 0]

It is even looked down upon to be a Christian by many people in this country.

 

You can thank organizations like Westboro Baptist and the conservative movement for this.

 

Using religion as ammo to vote stating, "Vote Christian" turns a lot of progressive Christians off.

 

Is it un-Christian to have the belief that there should be separation between church and state?

 

Is it un-Christian to be non-comittal on issues you feel do not pertain to you (gay marriage, abortion)?

 

Also, remarks by self-proclaimed Christians that liken gay marriage as "yuck" factor do not do any favors for "The Christian" cause. You basically come off as judgmental, combative, and flat out divisive. Isn't religion supposed to be an inclusive, human experience?

 

Perhaps we all would do better being more accepting of others that are different. Wasn't that a mantra of Jesus?

[KellyisNasty 0]

Actually it was approved in 1863, first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864, and was on ALL US coins by 1938. I believe you are thinking of the national motto as "In God We Trust" was identified as the national motto in 1956.

 

Source: US Treasury website

 

Your perceptions do not equal reality.

 

 

 

So you are saying it is OK for you to violate your beliefs if it meets your needs. Sounds hypocritical to me, but that is your choice.

 

 

 

Hmmm, well I guess all of historical academia including the University of Virginia is just teaching some big misconception and in fact you are the one that has a PhD in History that really matters OR it is more convenient for you to try to change history to meet your anti-Christian stance. Now which one seems more logical?

 

Source: University of Virginia website (This is the same university started by Thomas Jefferson....one of our founding fathers that you don't believe wanted the US to have anything to do with Christianity

 

 

 

Source

 

and a Wiki entry

 

 

 

 

Really?? Because to me there are many more examples of Christianity being kicked to the curb over the last 60 years. It is even looked down upon to be a Christian by many people in this country.

 

 

 

Agreed, most of them were Christians and Christianity (along with other religions and religious freedom) has been built into the fabric of this nation since its inception. My point is don't try to remove Christianity from the American way of life and culture. If that is your goal then you need to find a new country to live in because your views aren't in line with what America was built on.

 

 

 

Probably should have followed that voice in your head and saved yourself the embarrassment.

 

The Pilgrims were viewed as religious extremists in England. Even the Puritans thought they were wackos. They came to the US to practice their extremist views and were highly oppressive towards other religions. That said, they were a small majority of settlers to the US. Most were businessmen, workers and merchants. To say the US started because of people wanting religious freedom is highly disingenuous. The colonies were business ventures first and foremost.

 

Also,its odd that you invoke the name of Thomas Jefferson as an example of a Christian founder. Jefferson was a Deist, and even went as far as to create the "Jefferson Bible" where he removed most of Jesus' miracles and most cases of the supernatural. I suggest you read the autobiographies and letters of the founders. You will get a whole new appreciation of their brilliance and what they actually thought about things.

 

I will agree with you that he wanted religious freedom, just not in the way you would like.

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

 

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

 

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

 

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Edited November 21, 2012 by KellyisNasty

[Rockets Revenge 0]

blah blah blah lack of comprehension blah blah blah change the facts to meet your agenda blah blah blah

 

Your comprehension skills are lacking. I wasn't using TJ as an example of a Christian founder. I stated he was the founder of the University of Virginia AND one of the founding fathers of America who as a body supported Christianity in the new America.

 

And just for the record TJ himself stated he was a Christian:

 

In a private letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803): "To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence..."

 

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803, Writings of Thomas Jefferson

 

Looks pretty black and white to me!! He was opposed to people trying to use Christianity for their own motives, a la what some "Americans" are trying to do now....

[KellyisNasty 0]

Your comprehension skills are lacking. I wasn't using TJ as an example of a Christian founder. I stated he was the founder of the University of Virginia AND one of the founding fathers of America who as a body supported Christianity in the new America.

 

And just for the record TJ himself stated he was a Christian:

 

In a private letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803): "To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence..."

 

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803, Writings of Thomas Jefferson

 

Looks pretty black and white to me!! He was opposed to people trying to use Christianity for their own motives, a la what some "Americans" are trying to do now....

 

 

Your characterization of what I wrote as blah blah blah is immature and intellectually bankrupt. Here's another quote since you haven't attempted to read any of the papers of the founders. Also, you didn't even bother to argue the point that the US was not created as a Christian Nation.

 

 

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

 

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

 

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

 

-Treaty of Tripoli . submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797