Confederate Statues

[jessemoore97 1,280]

The topic of Confederate Statues has obviously been a hot button issue recently, with divisions of opinion drawn across all boundaries of society. It's a very complex issue garnering both educated as well as emotional responses from all sides. What are some of the views held here, are you for the removal of the statues, leave them up, or something else?

 

As a history buff, I am saddened when objects belonging to our shared past are destroyed. There has been an immense loss of historical buildings, literature, and many other cultural relics that have been willfully and wantonly destroyed by people throughout our history through war, regime change, ideology, etc. I find it tragic when we lose knowledge and history.

 

Now as it relates to these statues of the Confederacy, I firmly believe it's up to the local populations to debate and ultimately choose what to do through the appropriate legal processes. I don't believe the Fed's need to step in, nor do I believe my voice as an outsider to a region hold sway in the outcome. If the statues are removed, I hope that they can find a way of preserving the history in a museum or private hands, and not be outright destroyed. Not every statue was erected under the same auspices. Some were likely made as a sign of revolt against the movements taking place during the time they were erected. Others were made in utmost sincerity and respect to honor the fallen Confederate soldiers, by the Union, as a sign of consolidation and remembrance for the war that did pit brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor.

 

My fear though is how far does this movement go? There have been cries for the removal of statues and memorials of other historical figures like Washington and Jefferson(among others) because they also owned slaves. Realistically every historical figure was flawed, and there's bound to be something that they did that offends someone's sensibilities.

[irishrush 60]

I agree with you. They are part of our history and need to be preserved. This was an ugly part of our history, but that was society up until that point.

 

The local population should have a say in what happens with them, instead of groups from out of state that are only pushing their agenda.

 

I lived in the south for a long time, and the people there are as American, if not more American, than a lot of other places in the country.

 

Not everyone in the south are KKK, just like not everyone in NY support cop killing. We label the majority based on the acts of a tiny percentage.

[Jim2Dokes 3]

They should have never went up, they were losers. What's next statues for the Atlanta Falcons, participation trophies? Bunch of snowflakes crying about racist loser statues being taken down. People crying over Christopher Columbus who murdered thousands of people for "gold" that was never even in the Caribbean, and he never even came to America! Now let me pause my rant while I get my Judas statute up, maybe Hitler would look nice on Main Street?

[coltssb 1,044]

They could be taken down or kept up. I could honestly care less honestly. But remember, a lot of these statues were erected during the civil rights movement in the 60's during the Jim Crowe laws. So, it's not like they were erected right after the civil war for history purposes. Put them in a smithsonian if they want it for that purpose. Then everyone can be happy.

[davislove 0]

I didn't think people were upset with the statues because they were slave owners. When the white supremist group started supporting them and waving the confederate flag, that's what brought race into it and hijacked the issue. Trump brought up the removing of Washington and Jefferson but that's silly.

 

For me, those statues represent honoring people that fought against our country. We wouldn't want an Osama Bin Laden statue erected.

 

What I find odd is the many of the same people that are against football players kneeling for the national anthem support the confederate statues and flags.

[ELDER06 248]

I didn't think people were upset with the statues because they were slave owners. When the white supremist group started supporting them and waving the confederate flag, that's what brought race into it and hijacked the issue. Trump brought up the removing of Washington and Jefferson but that's silly.

 

For me, those statues represent honoring people that fought against our country. We wouldn't want an Osama Bin Laden statue erected.

 

What I find odd is the many of the same people that are against football players kneeling for the national anthem support the confederate statues and flags.

 

I agree, but it's not up to angry mobs to decide whether or not they should stay. Let the people in the community decide.

[ELDER06 248]

They should have never went up, they were losers. What's next statues for the Atlanta Falcons, participation trophies? Bunch of snowflakes crying about racist loser statues being taken down. People crying over Christopher Columbus who murdered thousands of people for "gold" that was never even in the Caribbean, and he never even came to America! Now let me pause my rant while I get my Judas statute up, maybe Hitler would look nice on Main Street?

 

They're the very first participation trophies.

[davislove 0]

I agree, but it's not up to angry mobs to decide whether or not they should stay. Let the people in the community decide.

 

Agreed. Put it on a local ballot.

[Jersey Irish 205]

The topic of Confederate Statues has obviously been a hot button issue recently, with divisions of opinion drawn across all boundaries of society. It's a very complex issue garnering both educated as well as emotional responses from all sides. What are some of the views held here, are you for the removal of the statues, leave them up, or something else?

 

As a history buff, I am saddened when objects belonging to our shared past are destroyed. There has been an immense loss of historical buildings, literature, and many other cultural relics that have been willfully and wantonly destroyed by people throughout our history through war, regime change, ideology, etc. I find it tragic when we lose knowledge and history.

 

Now as it relates to these statues of the Confederacy, I firmly believe it's up to the local populations to debate and ultimately choose what to do through the appropriate legal processes. I don't believe the Fed's need to step in, nor do I believe my voice as an outsider to a region hold sway in the outcome. If the statues are removed, I hope that they can find a way of preserving the history in a museum or private hands, and not be outright destroyed. Not every statue was erected under the same auspices. Some were likely made as a sign of revolt against the movements taking place during the time they were erected. Others were made in utmost sincerity and respect to honor the fallen Confederate soldiers, by the Union, as a sign of consolidation and remembrance for the war that did pit brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor.

 

My fear though is how far does this movement go? There have been cries for the removal of statues and memorials of other historical figures like Washington and Jefferson(among others) because they also owned slaves. Realistically every historical figure was flawed, and there's bound to be something that they did that offends someone's sensibilities.

 

There you go. Very well stated. Where does this political correctness end? and it must!

[Kelly Gruene 26]

I didn't think people were upset with the statues because they were slave owners. When the white supremist group started supporting them and waving the confederate flag, that's what brought race into it and hijacked the issue. Trump brought up the removing of Washington and Jefferson but that's silly.

 

For me, those statues represent honoring people that fought against our country. We wouldn't want an Osama Bin Laden statue erected.

 

What I find odd is the many of the same people that are against football players kneeling for the national anthem support the confederate statues and flags.

 

This is not really correct.

One of my sons attends Yale. That school has been in the middle of renaming dormitories (they call them colleges) of anyone associated with slavery for the last two years (https://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun-college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0). Yale opened a new dorm last year and named it Benjamin Franklin College. Students objected because he too owned slaves (http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/04/29/students-rechristen-franklin-college/).

Princeton University recently convened a special group to decide whether to remove anything associated with Woodrow Wilson (a former president of the university and of course of the country) (http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-princeton-woodrow-wilson-20160404-story.html) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/23/after-protests-princeton-debates-woodrow-wilsons-legacy/?utm_term=.479222f09533)

 

It is very much about slavery, not just white supremacist groups supporting statues and the Confederacy.

Any person, any group, any business associated with slavery is going to be addressing this issue sooner rather than later.

It is my opinion that Washington DC is likely to be raising the issue about renaming the city in the coming year or two. I don't know how the naming of the Federal District is handled legally, but if it were only under local control there is no doubt in my mind that the name would be changed.

Every city has a street or bridge or school named Washington. Many have streets and schools named Jefferson. I believe these will come under fire soon enough.

Lincoln himself, in his fourth debate with Douglas, didn't believe blacks should have the same rights as whites (http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation) ( “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races” ). So, there goes all things Lincoln.

Wikipedia lists the presidents who owned slaves (http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves). Turns out twelve of them did.

 

I personally don't care about statues. Just my opinion. They're just not important to me. Lee? take it down. Jefferson. Go right ahead. Statues of Rosa Parks? Take 'em down (she wasn't the original black woman arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a white person on a bus in Montgomery; she was just a better face for the movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudette_Colvin).

 

I'm personally more concerned about North Korea and Afghanistan. I'm more concerned about the state of Connecticut about to enter bankruptcy. Lots of things, but not statues. Put statues in museums or on personal private spaces for all I care.

[davislove 0]

This is not really correct.

One of my sons attends Yale. That school has been in the middle of renaming dormitories (they call them colleges) of anyone associated with slavery for the last two years (https://news.yale.edu/2017/02/11/yale-change-calhoun-college-s-name-honor-grace-murray-hopper-0). Yale opened a new dorm last year and named it Benjamin Franklin College. Students objected because he too owned slaves (http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/04/29/students-rechristen-franklin-college/).

Princeton University recently convened a special group to decide whether to remove anything associated with Woodrow Wilson (a former president of the university and of course of the country) (http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-princeton-woodrow-wilson-20160404-story.html) (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/23/after-protests-princeton-debates-woodrow-wilsons-legacy/?utm_term=.479222f09533)

 

It is very much about slavery, not just white supremacist groups supporting statues and the Confederacy.

Any person, any group, any business associated with slavery is going to be addressing this issue sooner rather than later.

It is my opinion that Washington DC is likely to be raising the issue about renaming the city in the coming year or two. I don't know how the naming of the Federal District is handled legally, but if it were only under local control there is no doubt in my mind that the name would be changed.

Every city has a street or bridge or school named Washington. Many have streets and schools named Jefferson. I believe these will come under fire soon enough.

Lincoln himself, in his fourth debate with Douglas, didn't believe blacks should have the same rights as whites (http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation) ( “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races” ). So, there goes all things Lincoln.

Wikipedia lists the presidents who owned slaves (http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves). Turns out twelve of them did.

 

I personally don't care about statues. Just my opinion. They're just not important to me. Lee? take it down. Jefferson. Go right ahead. Statues of Rosa Parks? Take 'em down (she wasn't the original black woman arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a white person on a bus in Montgomery; she was just a better face for the movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudette_Colvin).

 

I'm personally more concerned about North Korea and Afghanistan. I'm more concerned about the state of Connecticut about to enter bankruptcy. Lots of things, but not statues. Put statues in museums or on personal private spaces for all I care.

 

Thanks for the correction and info. I'm like you in that on the list of things I give a damn about, the statues are not even a consideration.

[jessemoore97 1,280]

They should have never went up, they were losers. What's next statues for the Atlanta Falcons, participation trophies? Bunch of snowflakes crying about racist loser statues being taken down. People crying over Christopher Columbus who murdered thousands of people for "gold" that was never even in the Caribbean, and he never even came to America! Now let me pause my rant while I get my Judas statute up, maybe Hitler would look nice on Main Street?

 

So by that logic we should never honor the fallen from Vietnam or Korea, the War of 1812, etc? Oh and I didn't know this until recently, there's a statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not ordering that it should be removed mind you, but under your guidelines why was it ever erected?

Edited August 28, 2017 by jessemoore97

[Jim2Dokes 3]

So by that logic we should never honor the fallen from Vietnam or Korea, the War of 1812, etc?

 

Those were Americans fighting another country. Are there statutes in Vietnam or Great Britain of American generals from those wars? That is my logic.

[davislove 0]

Oh and I didn't know this until recently, there's a statue of Lenin in Seattle. Not ordering that it should be removed mind you, but under your guidelines why was it ever erected?

 

The Lenin Statue is on Private property. You should read up on it. It's an interesting story but it's nothing like the confederate statues.

Edited August 28, 2017 by davislove

[jessemoore97 1,280]

Those were Americans fighting another country. Are there statutes in Vietnam or Great Britain of American generals from those wars? That is my logic.

 

Your first couple lines about losers and participation trophies is what I'm referring to. Vietnam in the general consensus was a lost war, Korea a stalemate that technically hasn't ended, and we surrendered to the British in 1812 to end that war. Meaning since we lost, those who fought and died for a lost cause, home or abroad, shouldn't be enshrined in memorial whatsoever here. Thereby any reference to anyone we conquered should be erased from the record on any building, street, memorial, park, etc because we only want to recognize the narrow focus of wins and winners. Communism: defeated, bye bye Lenin, Native Americans: defeated, bye Crazy Horse and hundreds of other dedicated items to them and their leaders.

 

I don't know if you thought this out thoroughly, and how complicated the issue is, rather than painting it in such broad brush strokes.

[jessemoore97 1,280]

The Lenin Statue is on Private property. You should read up on it. It's an interesting story but it's nothing like the confederate statues.

 

I haven't read anything on it to be honest, other than I heard of its existence. I figured it probably was private property, which does alter its discussion compared to publically owned memorials or statues.

[davislove 0]

I haven't read anything on it to be honest, other than I heard of its existence. I figured it probably was private property, which does alter its discussion compared to publically owned memorials or statues.

 

No problem. I wiki'd it and the statue was found overseas in a scrapyard. and brought over by a man that purchased it. It's not anything that's honored.

 

A few years back networks went to commercial breaks when the national anthem was played and I went to take a leak. No the use that time to see what players love America and which ones hate America by kneeling.

 

I was at a sports bar a while back watching a nascar race and everyone was talking during the singing. I hate this convenient patriotism.

 

The Mayweather and Mcgregor fight last night was interesting. An Irishman fighting in this country, waving his Irish flag and most of the American crowd was cheering him. I find it all a bit confusing.

 

I'm gonna PM you Jesse so keep an eye out. I have a few questions for you.

[jessemoore97 1,280]

No problem. I wiki'd it and the statue was found overseas in a scrapyard. and brought over by a man that purchased it. It's not anything that's honored.

 

A few years back networks went to commercial breaks when the national anthem was played and I went to take a leak. No the use that time to see what players love America and which ones hate America by kneeling.

 

I was at a sports bar a while back watching a nascar race and everyone was talking during the singing. I hate this convenient patriotism.

 

The Mayweather and Mcgregor fight last night was interesting. An Irishman fighting in this country, waving his Irish flag and most of the American crowd was cheering him. I find it all a bit confusing.

 

I'm gonna PM you Jesse so keep an eye out. I have a few questions for you.

 

No problem. The Anthem issue is what it is. I don't make a huge fuss of it, I have my opinions of it and what I do. I may not approve of what others are or are not doing during its playing. It's a big deal to people on both sides. It's free speech, which I absolutely support wholeheartedly, and won't forbid people from exercising it. I guess I'm tired of every f*ing thing having to be the next crusade by the extreme elements and media purporting it to be a lot bigger deal than what it is. Liberty and truth, not subjective truth just truth, are things I hold in highest regard.

 

I'll keep an eye for the PM, I think mine has been working, not that I get many PM anyhow. Lol. BTW I wasn't really pulling for anyone for the fight, maybe leaning towards Mayweather though because I think he's been one of the greats in his sport.

Edited August 28, 2017 by jessemoore97

[Rockets Revenge 0]

Thanks for the correction and info. I'm like you in that on the list of things I give a damn about, the statues are not even a consideration.

 

Why stop at statues? We should remove every mention of these vile characters from our history. No mention of anyone that ever persecuted another human from every statue, book, publication, school name, street name, etc. Just wipe them out of all of history, like they never existed.

 

We should only recognize and celebrate victims!!

 

Maybe then we can change history into what we want instead of what really happened...

[Pregame 291]

Most of these confederate statutes were constructed in the Jim Crow era as a means of reasserting white supremacy in the post reconstruction, Jim Crow Southern states.

 

Put them in a museum where they belong but they have no place in federal or state parks. Quite literally using state funding to erect statues to treasonous bastards that KILLED American soldiers. You can remember the past without glorifying men who believed in owning human beings and committed treason against the United States in order to support that belief.