Confederate Statues

[gasher 6]

I think we should take the opportunity to teach and heal our divide. There is also the Stone Mountain monument to deal with.

 

I think we as a nation should pull up some of our stakes of stubbornness and work together. I don't think we should destroy history, but we should learn from it and we should make history while learning from it.

 

Lets create new parks or change/add to existing parks and call them historical walks. We take these statues/monuments and place then on a trail or sidewalk path that has a beginning from the start of our US history and an continues to today with room for tomorrow. Each monument should tell a story of a part of our history that it represents. The story should be complete though and tell the truth. This way they are resting in their "proper" spot and telling a story that can remind/teach both our glorious and dark history. We can also include events/history that were coinciding with other world events/figures. These parks need to include all races, not just black and white and should just not just teach the dark side of our history. It can and should include all wars that we were in and should include the Native Americans history as well. We probably should erect new statutes of people who were forgotten.

 

So places like Stone Mountain and Mount Rushmore would be ideal for this type of park. We are in need of a healthy dose of truth to our history and it will certainly be beneficial to all of us going forward.

[stdntDrvr 12]

it's quite humorous that these statues have been up for decades and NOW people want to complain? what's even worse is the majority of people demonstrating probably never knew who the statue they walked past in the park every weekend was for and they didn't even care enough to read the sign about it...but now...now they're racist and must come down. With all of the crap going on in the world today, not including the stress from work, family, etc...how do people find the time to complain about this stuff? tear them down, leave them up...I don't care. I have more important crap to worry about.

 

Citizens allow the media, those in power, and those who seek to be in power to divide us as a nation based on race, politics, gender, etc. quit fighting over petty sh!t like statues and focus on more important things.

[jbrown_9999 1,020]

There have been cries for the removal of statues and memorials of other historical figures like Washington and Jefferson(among others) because they also owned slaves. Realistically every historical figure was flawed, and there's bound to be something that they did that offends someone's sensibilities.

 

Surely, this means that half of Mount Rushmore needs to be blown up to remove Washington and Jefferson.

 

In addition, shouldn't any monument of politicians that kept women from voting during their time in office be also be removed? So we can just haul all statues of all politicians from the 1700's, 1800's, and early 1900's to the junk heap.

[echo88 74]

Surely, this means that half of Mount Rushmore needs to be blown up to remove Washington and Jefferson.

 

In addition, shouldn't any monument of politicians that kept women from voting during their time in office be also be removed? So we can just haul all statues of all politicians from the 1700's, 1800's, and early 1900's to the junk heap.

 

Sadly, this will eventually happen at this rate. I could easily see this erupting into a 2nd civil war someday soon.

 

These people lived during a time of cultural ignorance. It wasn't just the U.S.--it was worldwide.

 

We live in a different world now, but that doesn't mean that contributions and occurrences should be wiped from the history books. The Confederate Army, at the time, believed they were fighting for a meaningful cause in an effort to preserve our culture out of fear of the unknown. They were still Americans who died for their country for what they believed was right.

 

It's easy to look back and judge, just like it's easy now to look back and judge George W. on his stance on Iraq and Obama's refusal to acknowledge radical Islam. That wasn't long ago, but the reactions of the left are out of control. They are using the current state of affairs in this nation to apply 20/20 hindsight and wag fingers. Our leaders do what they believe to be right at the time. Questioning those decisions after the fact is easy for us because we werent the ones who had to make the decisions that altered the course of history.

 

It's like what happens when you give toddlers some leeway---they will push the envelope to figure out their boundaries. Right now the social justice warriors are seeing just how much they can get away with. Hopefully it's not much more because I am fearful of the implications behind protecting our youth from the facts of history. They cannot learn from the mistakes of those who came before them if the left continues this campaign of earmuffs.

[stdntDrvr 12]

great post, echo.

[Pregame 291]

it's quite humorous that these statues have been up for decades and NOW people want to complain? what's even worse is the majority of people demonstrating probably never knew who the statue they walked past in the park every weekend was for and they didn't even care enough to read the sign about it...but now...now they're racist and must come down. With all of the crap going on in the world today, not including the stress from work, family, etc...how do people find the time to complain about this stuff? tear them down, leave them up...I don't care. I have more important crap to worry about.

 

Citizens allow the media, those in power, and those who seek to be in power to divide us as a nation based on race, politics, gender, etc. quit fighting over petty sh!t like statues and focus on more important things.

But you found the time to come post a complaint about people complaining about something?

[stdntDrvr 12]

But you found the time to come post a complaint about people complaining about something?

 

sure did..it took all of 3 minutes? you won't see me standing around a statue of something I disagree with demanding that it be taken down.

[Pregame 291]

Sadly, this will eventually happen at this rate. I could easily see this erupting into a 2nd civil war someday soon.

 

These people lived during a time of cultural ignorance. It wasn't just the U.S.--it was worldwide.

 

We live in a different world now, but that doesn't mean that contributions and occurrences should be wiped from the history books. The Confederate Army, at the time, believed they were fighting for a meaningful cause in an effort to preserve our culture out of fear of the unknown. They were still Americans who died for their country for what they believed was right.

 

It's easy to look back and judge, just like it's easy now to look back and judge George W. on his stance on Iraq and Obama's refusal to acknowledge radical Islam. That wasn't long ago, but the reactions of the left are out of control. They are using the current state of affairs in this nation to apply 20/20 hindsight and wag fingers. Our leaders do what they believe to be right at the time. Questioning those decisions after the fact is easy for us because we werent the ones who had to make the decisions that altered the course of history.

These statues were erected to "honor" confederates decades after the civil war. These statues are not a relic of their contemporary history. Also, many of these statues were erected in Southern Communities with taxpayer money without giving black people a vote (quite literally since they were unable to vote) during a time when black people were seeking equal rights in the south.

 

This would be like erecting an OJ statue in front of the Coliseum this year. Sure he was a hell of a football player but after decades of reflection, do we really feel the need to honor the man?

Edited August 29, 2017 by Pregame

[Pregame 291]

sure did..it took all of 3 minutes? you won't see me standing around a statue of something I disagree with demanding that it be taken down.

Haha I'm not out standing in front of a statue either, ultimately I think its somewhat of a frivolous debate in general but I'm also not black. My ancestors weren't bought and sold like livestock and there aren't statues honoring the men who wanted to protect the slave trade. It's not my place to tell the descendant of a slave what should offend them or remind them of the horrible past for their ancestors. As ND fans (who hold onto history more than anything else) we should be sympathetic to the power and sway history can hold.

[stdntDrvr 12]

Since when do people vote on erecting statues? I've yet to ever see that on any ballot.

[Pregame 291]

Since when do people vote on erecting statues? I've yet to ever see that on any ballot.

This is the history you're choosing to defend, I'd understand it a bit better if I were you.

 

Take the United Daughters of the Confederacy. They raise money for, fund and then they build a monument. Where do they build the monuments? Public Land. Who allows the statue to be erected on public land? Local governments. Who votes for the local government? At the time of the erection (nice) of these statues, NOT black people. Additionally, southern legislators have passed reform making it more difficult to relocate a statue ensuring the Confederate Monuments are allowed to exist.

 

Additionally, there are instances of Confederate monuments being paid for with PUBLIC money, though it is less common than these monuments being privately funded but used on public land.

[stdntDrvr 12]

This is the history you're choosing to defend, I'd understand it a bit better if I were you.

 

Take the United Daughters of the Confederacy. They raise money for, fund and then they build a monument. Where do they build the monuments? Public Land. Who allows the statue to be erected on public land? Local governments. Who votes for the local government? At the time of the erection (nice) of these statues, NOT black people. Additionally, southern legislators have passed reform making it more difficult to relocate a statue ensuring the Confederate Monuments are allowed to exist.

 

Additionally, there are instances of Confederate monuments being paid for with PUBLIC money, though it is less common than these monuments being privately funded but used on public land.

 

I fully understand how all of that works, however there was an MLK statue just erected at the capitol building here in Georgia...funny, I didn't see 'money to erect statue of MLK at the capitol building' on any of the recent ballots.

 

Being from the south, I do not view these monuments as 'pro slavery' because, well, they are not. The reasons you mentioned previously may have been their initial intent, but today they're just seen as statues that honor soldiers (some local) of our history, good or bad. Also, the confederate battle flag that is seen displayed is a way to identify a redneck, not a racist. I don't have one, nor will I ever...but living in small towns in the south, these things have a much different meaning than the one that the media likes to portray.

[Pregame 291]

I fully understand how all of that works, however there was an MLK statue just erected at the capitol building here in Georgia...funny, I didn't see 'money to erect statue of MLK at the capitol building' on any of the recent ballots.

 

Being from the south, I do not view these monuments as 'pro slavery' because, well, they are not. The reasons you mentioned previously may have been their initial intent, but today they're just seen as statues that honor soldiers (some local) of our history, good or bad. Also, the confederate battle flag that is seen displayed is a way to identify a redneck, not a racist. I don't have one, nor will I ever...but living in small towns in the south, these things have a much different meaning than the one that the media likes to portray.

One of my degrees from ND is a history degree. I'm not suggesting in any case that these statues be melted down and this history erased. Just move them into private spaces and/or museums so they can be viewed in the proper context. Otherwise, they will continue to be used as rallying points for divisiveness in America. If you truly don't think honoring the Confederacy has at least a bit of "pro slavery" overtones to it, well you need to dig back into that history book because the entire Civil War was fought over the expansion of slavery oftentimes coded by a PROUD SUTHNA as "state's rights."

[stdntDrvr 12]

One of my degrees from ND is a history degree. I'm not suggesting in any case that these statues be melted down and this history erased. Just move them into private spaces and/or museums so they can be viewed in the proper context. Otherwise, they will continue to be used as rallying points for divisiveness in America. If you truly don't think honoring the Confederacy has at least a bit of "pro slavery" overtones to it, well you need to dig back into that history book because the entire Civil War was fought over the expansion of slavery oftentimes coded by a PROUD SUTHNA as "state's rights."

 

No one is debating what the civil war was fought over, I'm just telling you how many view the statues today, if they even notice them at all...and most don't. People view history as they choose, perhaps stepping back and looking at things from a different point of view on both sides would be a good thing. Unfortunately, that will never happen. My point is these statues have not been an issue for at least the past 30+ years, so tell me again why is it such a huge deal now? Should Arlington National Cemetery relocate the fallen confederate soldiers as it is public land and can be offensive to families that visit the fallen? Where is the line drawn?

 

I'm sure the Vietnamese Americans who see the names of some soldiers on the war memorial in DC are offended due to the atrocities that were committed during the Vietnam War. The same can be said for any war memorial, honestly. Not all soldiers are bad people, but some do bad things that people tend to forget about. If we decided to remove/relocate every statue of every conflict that was fought over poor policy or reasons that would negatively impact a segment of people, there would not be any around.

[echo88 74]

These statues were erected to "honor" confederates decades after the civil war. These statues are not a relic of their contemporary history. Also, many of these statues were erected in Southern Communities with taxpayer money without giving black people a vote (quite literally since they were unable to vote) during a time when black people were seeking equal rights in the south.

 

This would be like erecting an OJ statue in front of the Coliseum this year. Sure he was a hell of a football player but after decades of reflection, do we really feel the need to honor the man?

 

1) No one gets a vote or a say when the decision is made to build and place a statue. So black folks werent given a vote because white folks werent either in the matter. It was never a matter of suffrage.

 

2) An OJ statue, erected a few years after he graduated, would be a far more appropriate analogy as opposed to a current decision to build a statue now that we know who he really was. These statues were built back when the South was still mourning thousands upon thousands of Americans who were fighting for what they believed was right. And they are still Americans, as are their generations of family that followed them.

 

We arent talking about a fight to build a statue honoring Confederate soldiers now. We are talking about a fight to not destroy ones that were erected over a hundred years ago. Huge difference. Those statues are part of our history, regardless of how ugly it may be.

 

The same people who want to laud the accomplishments of Abe Lincoln (who, by the way, spent part of his younger life serving as counsel for slave owners wishing to reclaim their slaves) are the same people who want to vilify anyone who ever had any part in supporting slavery in this country.

 

Not only did Lincoln vote against anti-abolitionist resolutions in the Illinois legislature, he also penned a protest arguing that slavery was an “injustice and bad policy” but that abolition may increase rather than abate its evils.

 

So if you support the removal and banishment of symbols of the Confederacy, you're probably also the victim of a **** poor public education and you'll just have to come to terms with also supporting the required removal/banishment of an overwhelming majority of our statues and monuments....because virtually every person involved in the liberation and establishment of this great nation was at one time or another a purveyor of slavery. Not because they believed it was right...but because it was simply the way things were done back then.

 

You cant have it both ways.

Edited August 29, 2017 by echo88

[Pregame 291]

So if you support the removal and banishment of symbols of the Confederacy, you're probably also the victim of a **** poor public education and you'll just have to come to terms with also supporting the required removal/banishment of an overwhelming majority of our statues and monuments....because virtually every person involved in the liberation and establishment of this great nation was at one time or another a purveyor of slavery. Not because they believed it was right...but because it was simply the way things were done back then.

1) Legislators are voted in by constituents.

 

2) Fair point on the OJ statue.

 

I guess ND is a **** poor public education? History major as well as economics. From Notre Dame. Catholic school my entire life, though in a lot of cases that is shittier than public schools.

 

I can appreciate your earlier point about people making decisions in the framework of their time, which is why I'm not calling for the "banishment" of the Washington/Jefferson (etc.) statues or the erasure of history. Additionally, those people were successful Americans. The British wouldn't have a statue of General Washington in their American colony had we lost the Revolution. I'm not even calling on people to destroy Confederate statues. But when you lose the war, you don't get a public memorial. No moral victories.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Pregame

[echo88 74]

1) Legislators are voted in by constituents.

 

2) Fair point on the OJ statue.

 

I guess ND is a **** poor public education? History major as well as economics. From Notre Dame. Catholic school my entire life, though in a lot of cases that is shittier than public schools.

 

I can appreciate your earlier point about people making decisions in the framework of their time, which is why I'm not calling for the "banishment" of the Washington/Jefferson (etc.) statues or the erasure of history. I'm not even calling on people to destroy Confederate statues. But when you lose the war, you don't get a statue. No moral victories, especially not when they have ample opportunity to celebrate the thousands and thousands of southerners who fought in the Union.

 

To clarify, when I referenced **** poor schools I was referring to the majority of the Antifa movement who arent even educating on what they are protesting...and when they are, it's education that is heavily slanted toward liberalism. Didnt mean to insinuate you werent educated because I already knew you were.

 

You can say you dont get a statue when you lose the war, but thousands upon thousands of American lives were lost in that war so I'd hardly consider it a moral victory to get a statue erected to honor them or those who led them into battle.

[jbrown_9999 1,020]

1) Legislators are voted in by constituents.

 

2) Fair point on the OJ statue.

 

I guess ND is a **** poor public education? History major as well as economics. From Notre Dame. Catholic school my entire life, though in a lot of cases that is shittier than public schools.

 

I can appreciate your earlier point about people making decisions in the framework of their time, which is why I'm not calling for the "banishment" of the Washington/Jefferson (etc.) statues or the erasure of history. Additionally, those people were successful Americans. The British wouldn't have a statue of General Washington in their American colony had we lost the Revolution. I'm not even calling on people to destroy Confederate statues. But when you lose the war, you don't get a public memorial. No moral victories.

 

Did the US win Vietnam, Korean War, War of 1812? There are some pretty public memorials for the soldiers that died in those wars.

[Pregame 291]

Did the US win Vietnam, Korean War, War of 1812? There are some pretty public memorials for the soldiers that died in those wars.

Are those memorials located in Northern Vietnam, North Korea and Canada/Great Britain?

[echo88 74]

Are those memorials located in Northern Vietnam, North Korea and Canada/Great Britain?

 

They would be if the statues were honoring fighters in their own nation...