Gun rights/control

[jessemoore97 1,287]

Okay here's a thread to start the pro and anti gun discussions in order to keep it out of the Orlando thread.

 

I will start. I am pro second ammendment as both a private citizen and as a police officer. I have no problem with responsible, law abiding gun owners who actually make up most of the gun ownership in America. I belive the second ammendment allows private citizens the right to keep and bear arms. I am against establishing laws and banning types of firearms based on reactionary emotional responses to tragedy. We have an inordinate amount of laws on the books that cover gun ownership currently. I can say unequivocally that they are not followed or enforced to their fullest potential. Thereby creating new laws and bans as feel good measures does little to nothing.

 

That should open up some discussion.

[echo88 74]

Overwhelming supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. Every law-abiding American citizen should have the ability to defend themselves from any threat. In every instance of tragedy involving guns, one or more of the following factors are present...yet ignored in order to drum up the debate about firearm regulation:

 

-Mental illness

-Easy money

-Religious radicals

-Irresponsible parenting

-Inadequate security features on weapons

 

 

If I was asked to tailor firearms laws, the first thing I'd do is abolish gun laws governed at the state level. We need one set of laws at the federal level that apply to the sale/ownership of weapons in all states. Of course this will never happen due to the red/blue state lines, but that would be first on my list. There is no reason that Maryland and Texas should have insanely polar opposite firearm laws if we are all U.S. citizens. People who follow the laws wouldnt take certain weapons across state lines---criminals would.

 

Second, I'd make all weapons illegal that didnt have biometric security. Gun manufacturers certainly have the money to make this happen, but the heavy hitting lobbyists of the NRA aren't having it. You go into a gun store to buy a weapon...you provide your fingerprints and the biometric profile (maintained by the ATF) is added to the weapon before you walk out of the store with it. Now you're the only person who can fire it. No more having to worry about stolen guns, accidental discharges with children, etc... It would obviously take time to phase out the legacy weapons....but law abiding citizens would have no issues with this provision, especially considering that manufacturers could afford kits that could be applied to older weapons to conform to the law.

 

Although certain types of weapons make mass murder a bit easier, people need to realize that in places like China where gun ownership is heavily regulated, people can still commit mass murder with other weapons if that is their intent. A guy there killed just as many kids in a school with a knife as our 3rd largest death toll shooting. Gun laws do not get in the way of criminals, murders, anarchists, or religious zealots. They just make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to own the weapons required to protect themselves from these contingents. And yes, I do believe there are scenarios where a weapon such as an AR-15, that boasts accuracy from a distance and the caliber to penetrate countermeasures, would be appropriate for home or personal defense.

 

I particularly loathe the comparisons of the United States to the rest of the world with regard to murders committed with guns. The U.S. is unlike any other nation---we have more immigrants, tourists, temporary inhabitants, more diversity, and more cultural acceptance than any other. We are obviously going to be a melting pot that is going to experience a wide spectrum of violence and madness that no other nation will ever have to endure. That is the price you pay for allowing your citizens to possess inalienable rights and for having an open door policy when it comes to immigration.

 

The one thing I will knock the NRA for is that they are completely intolerant when it comes to firearm regulation. You can't own a car without registering it with the government. You can't have a job without telling the government. The government is permitted to regulate the sale and distribution of alcohol and drugs. If you are a law -abiding citizen who owns weapons purely for recreational or self-preservation purposes, you should have no problem registering your prints for functionality. The whole "federal government doesn't need to know how many guns or what type of guns I own" is pure malarkey---and it needlessly fuels the fire of this debate.

Edited June 14, 2016 by echo88

[EddieAngel 508]

An armed society is a polite society. Measures taken that prevent law abiding citizens from arming themselves as is our right as Americans do not prevent terrorists and criminals from doing so as they do not abide by the same rules. The idea that stopping people from legally obtaining firearms is going to fix the problem is silly.

[davislove 0]

I'm gonna ramble a bit.

 

I agree with echo. I'm not against guns but there should be some regulation. If I were a cop and called to a domestic disturbance, I think it would be helpful to know if they have an arsenal of weapons on hand.

 

I don't get people bringing up the second amendment. That was written a long time ago when 3/4 of this country was wilderness. We didn't satellite or adequate means of surveillance so yeah arming the people was wise.

 

Does the second amendment apply to kids? If I walked toward a police officer with a gun and he tell me to drop it. I could scream 2nd Amendment all I want but in a few minutes I would be meeting my maker. Amendment be damned.

 

Full disclosure. My best friend is black. He's also married to my sister. In light of recent shootings of black people, we've had our share of discussions. One topic of interest was does the 2nd amendment apply to African americans? We've seen cases where a black person has a toy gun and they are shot and killed

 

If have no doubt that if we were all together in person instead of talking online--and gun we all carried guns, you can't tell me that someone wouldn't have shot PT.

 

Some of the reasons I hear in support of guns disturb me. Like the Government want to take your guns. For what? Are you Rambo. 30 years ago we called those folks "tin foil hat people". I recall days leading up to Y2K hearing people talk about hoping that the power goes out so they can take out their guns and "patrol" their neighborhood. First time I heard the term martial law was that day.

 

Then you have those wannabes like Zimmerman and that Orlando shooter that want to be police but clearly aren't cut out for it.

 

Everyone has their own life experiences but I don't live in fear. I don't feel I need a gun to go to the store. I stay away from places that make me uncomfortable.

 

"An armed society is a polite society" is a great bumper sticker, but that's all it is.

[nickman54 0]

I'm gonna ramble a bit.

 

I agree with echo. I'm not against guns but there should be some regulation. If I were a cop and called to a domestic disturbance, I think it would be helpful to know if they have an arsenal of weapons on hand.

 

I don't get people bringing up the second amendment. That was written a long time ago when 3/4 of this country was wilderness. We didn't satellite or adequate means of surveillance so yeah arming the people was wise.

 

Does the second amendment apply to kids? If I walked toward a police officer with a gun and he tell me to drop it. I could scream 2nd Amendment all I want but in a few minutes I would be meeting my maker. Amendment be damned.

 

Full disclosure. My best friend is black. He's also married to my sister. In light of recent shootings of black people, we've had our share of discussions. One topic of interest was does the 2nd amendment apply to African americans? We've seen cases where a black person has a toy gun and they are shot and killed

 

If have no doubt that if we were all together in person instead of talking online--and gun we all carried guns, you can't tell me that someone wouldn't have shot PT.

 

Some of the reasons I hear in support of guns disturb me. Like the Government want to take your guns. For what? Are you Rambo. 30 years ago we called those folks "tin foil hat people". I recall days leading up to Y2K hearing people talk about hoping that the power goes out so they can take out their guns and "patrol" their neighborhood. First time I heard the term martial law was that day.

 

Then you have those wannabes like Zimmerman and that Orlando shooter that want to be police but clearly aren't cut out for it.

 

Everyone has their own life experiences but I don't live in fear. I don't feel I need a gun to go to the store. I stay away from places that make me uncomfortable.

 

"An armed society is a polite society" is a great bumper sticker, but that's all it is.

 

Living in fear has nothing to do with owning or carrying a gun. Lol at the PT comment.:heh:

[Jim2Dokes 3]

Living in fear has nothing to do with owning or carrying a gun. Lol at the PT comment.:heh:

 

Maybe not to you. I remember an ironic story I overheard in a tourist town. I was at the local brewery and overheard a man telling another man about guns, it appeared the one man was interested in owning a firearm. The man went into all the hubs he owned and details about them and then all the guns his wife owned "for protection". I look around this nice city, streets are clean, probably hasn't been a murder in 20 years. And I can't help but think that the one time that gun goes off it is going to be their child or each other that's gonna get the bullet. The chances they would use any number of their guns in this story are about.000000001. Trust me people use the protection excuse and live in fear because people fear what they don't understand. Anyways my thoughts hunting, want to have a tightly locked 9mm with adequate safety precautions and all the checks balances echo mentioned fine. Want to have an AR 15 and whatever else for no damn reason other than your "collection" get outta here. I was at meeting when the leader of the gang enforcement was talking. He made a great point telling the story about local gangs. Said a man had a rare collection of about 20 guns in his house, had some kids too with xboxs play stations you name it. Gang broke in his house, stole all the guns and left the Xbox. A few of those guns were responsible for 4 murders he said. I thought that was pretty interesting.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jim2Dokes

[nickman54 0]

Maybe not to you. I remember an ironic story I overheard in a tourist town. I was at the local brewery and overheard a man telling another man about guns, it appeared the one man was interested in owning a firearm. The man went into all the hubs he owned and details about them and then all the guns his wife owned "for protection". I look around this nice city, streets are clean, probably hasn't been a murder in 20 years. And I can't help but think that the one time that gun goes off it is going to be their child or each other that's gonna get the bullet. The chances they would use any number of their guns in this story are about.000000001. Trust me people use the protection excuse and live in fear because people fear what they don't understand. Anyways my thoughts hunting, want to have a tightly locked 9mm with adequate safety precautions and all the checks balances echo mentioned fine. Want to have an AR 15 and whatever else for no damn reason other than your "collection" get outta here. I was at meeting when the leader of the gang enforcement was talking. He made a great point telling the story about local gangs. Said a man had a rare collection of about 20 guns in his house, had some kids too with xboxs play stations you name it. Gang broke in his house, stole all the guns and left the Xbox. A few of those guns were responsible for 4 murders he said. I thought that was pretty interesting.

 

I hunt deer with an ar15 variant rifle. I also have one in my closet that is my main home protection rifle. None of my guns accidentally go off and kill anybody. Who are you or anyone else to tell me as a law abiding citizen how I protect my children? I don't live in fear because I've prepared to defend my family. Don't take that as me attacking your beliefs on the issue because you have a right to your opinion. I've come to the realization that I'll never change an anti gun mentality in others, but I will continue to exercise my 2nd amendment rights.

[echo88 74]

I'm gonna ramble a bit.

 

I agree with echo. I'm not against guns but there should be some regulation. If I were a cop and called to a domestic disturbance, I think it would be helpful to know if they have an arsenal of weapons on hand.

 

I don't get people bringing up the second amendment. That was written a long time ago when 3/4 of this country was wilderness. We didn't satellite or adequate means of surveillance so yeah arming the people was wise.

 

Does the second amendment apply to kids? If I walked toward a police officer with a gun and he tell me to drop it. I could scream 2nd Amendment all I want but in a few minutes I would be meeting my maker. Amendment be damned.

 

Full disclosure. My best friend is black. He's also married to my sister. In light of recent shootings of black people, we've had our share of discussions. One topic of interest was does the 2nd amendment apply to African americans? We've seen cases where a black person has a toy gun and they are shot and killed

 

If have no doubt that if we were all together in person instead of talking online--and gun we all carried guns, you can't tell me that someone wouldn't have shot PT.

 

Some of the reasons I hear in support of guns disturb me. Like the Government want to take your guns. For what? Are you Rambo. 30 years ago we called those folks "tin foil hat people". I recall days leading up to Y2K hearing people talk about hoping that the power goes out so they can take out their guns and "patrol" their neighborhood. First time I heard the term martial law was that day.

 

Then you have those wannabes like Zimmerman and that Orlando shooter that want to be police but clearly aren't cut out for it.

 

Everyone has their own life experiences but I don't live in fear. I don't feel I need a gun to go to the store. I stay away from places that make me uncomfortable.

 

"An armed society is a polite society" is a great bumper sticker, but that's all it is.

 

Umm no i didn't say that at all. I'm not for federal firearm registration so that the gov can pull up a record to see what I'm carrying. I'm for it because you could register every firearm to a law abiding citizen...and use biometrics to ensure theyre the only ones that can engage it.

 

2nd point...legit citizen or not...if you carry a weapon and brandish it when you've been ordered by law enforcement to drop it, you don't deserve to get shot. You deserve to be sodomized with the barrel. 2nd amendment does not apply when the police are telling you to drop it to preserve their safety.

 

3rd...white or black...you carry what looks like a weapon when the police are pointing real guns at you....see point 2. This just unfortunately tends to apply to blacks because of the inner city gang culture where carrying guns--real or not---is considered cool.

 

Last, the pro gun rights movement have every reason to be concerned about the govt telling them what they can and cannot own---the dem nomination is fighting for that as we speak. And she will have to pry it from my cold lifeless hands.

Edited June 15, 2016 by echo88

[davislove 0]

I hunt deer with an ar15 variant rifle. I also have one in my closet that is my main home protection rifle. None of my guns accidentally go off and kill anybody. Who are you or anyone else to tell me as a law abiding citizen how I protect my children? I don't live in fear because I've prepared to defend my family. Don't take that as me attacking your beliefs on the issue because you have a right to your opinion. I've come to the realization that I'll never change an anti gun mentality in others, but I will continue to exercise my 2nd amendment rights.

 

Wanting some regulation is not anti gun. What are you protecting your family from? If i hear a strange noise outside my home, I go take a look not go find a gun. unless you walk around the house strapped, a gun in a locked (i assume locked) wont help you if youre not expecting anything.

 

I find it interesting that people in the poorest, crime ridden neighborhoods want stronger gun laws but those in nice, even gated communities want guns...to protect their families

[edcubby 2]

Echo...sorry I'm an inner city, non-gun owner...what is biometric security for a gun?

 

Seriously, I have no idea and I'm curious.

[echo88 74]

Echo...sorry I'm an inner city, non-gun owner...what is biometric security for a gun?

 

Seriously, I have no idea and I'm curious.

 

It's technology embedded into the pistol grip that reads your fingerprints when you're holding it...

[davislove 0]

Umm no i didn't say that at all. I'm not for federal firearm registration so that the gov can pull up a record to see what I'm carrying. I'm for it because you could register every firearm to a law abiding citizen...and use biometrics to ensure theyre the only ones that can engage it.

 

2nd point...legit citizen or not...if you carry a weapon and brandish it when you've been ordered by law enforcement to drop it, you don't deserve to get shot. You deserve to be sodomized with the barrel. 2nd amendment does not apply when the police are telling you to drop it to preserve their safety.

 

3rd...white or black...you carry what looks like a weapon when the police are pointing real guns at you....see point 2. This just unfortunately tends to apply to blacks because of the inner city gang culture where carrying guns--real or not---is considered cool.

 

Last, the pro gun rights movement have every reason to be concerned about the govt telling them what they can and cannot own---the dem nomination is fighting for that as we speak. And she will have to pry it from my cold lifeless hands.

 

I don't think all gun owners are as mentally stable as they think they are. I gave you too much credit apparently. Guns should be registered and someone wanting to hide their weapons kinda support the need for registration. Why the need for secrecy?

 

No one said anything about brandishing a gun at an officer. your weapon can be holstered, but if they want it removed, it will be removed and I bet they wouldn't have to pry it from your cold dead hands. all i'm saying.

 

If we're shooting certain people because of where they live and your opinion of their mentality then that alone is a problem If we're talking about people have the right to weapons. I'm not talking about someone facing off with a cop, I'm talking about being shot before you have a chance to react. How do we decide who carry's a gun for protection or all the right reason and who carries them to look cool?

 

And who carries a fake gun to look cool?

 

You have an ally in me if they try to ban guns but that's not the case and you know it. The love of guns by some seem a little over the top to me and you never really get a reason other then the 2nd amendment.

[nickman54 0]

Wanting some regulation is not anti gun. What are you protecting your family from? If i hear a strange noise outside my home, I go take a look not go find a gun. unless you walk around the house strapped, a gun in a locked (i assume locked) wont help you if youre not expecting anything.

 

I find it interesting that people in the poorest, crime ridden neighborhoods want stronger gun laws but those in nice, even gated communities want guns...to protect their families

 

When something is amiss in my neighborhood needs investigated I have a gun on me. People in the inner city don't know a damn thing about gun control, quite often cities with the highest murder rates have the strictest gun laws. Chicago.

[nickman54 0]

It's technology embedded into the pistol grip that reads your fingerprints when you're holding it...

 

I'm totally against this type of legislation. That's just my opinion.

[echo88 74]

I don't think all gun owners are as mentally stable as they think they are. I gave you too much credit apparently. Guns should be registered and someone wanting to hide their weapons kinda support the need for registration. Why the need for secrecy?

 

No one said anything about brandishing a gun at an officer. your weapon can be holstered, but if they want it removed, it will be removed and I bet they wouldn't have to pry it from your cold dead hands. all i'm saying.

 

If we're shooting certain people because of where they live and your opinion of their mentality then that alone is a problem If we're talking about people have the right to weapons. I'm not talking about someone facing off with a cop, I'm talking about being shot before you have a chance to react. How do we decide who carry's a gun for protection or all the right reason and who carries them to look cool?

 

And who carries a fake gun to look cool?

 

You have an ally in me if they try to ban guns but that's not the case and you know it. The love of guns by some seem a little over the top to me and you never really get a reason other then the 2nd amendment.

 

Lol absolutely not. Law enforcement cannot ask a law abiding citizen to remove their legal holstered weapon unless they've broken the law.

[Kelly Gruene 26]

I've lived in Texas a good portion of my life.

Never owned a gun.

However, when I go to the movies now, I sure look around and look for anything that seems out of place.

I find myself thinking that if some bad guy were to start shooting up the place, I hope there's a 'good guy' with concealed carry who might quickly either put an end to it or at least divert attention so the rest of us can get out.

Crazy for sure. But that's where I've landed.

[jessemoore97 1,287]

I've had many experiences with guns in my life. I was raised around firearms as a kid and my father taught me about safety. I am continuing that with my son so he learns proper safety and awareness. He will also be taught the history of how the second ammendment came to be, and it certainly wasn't to protect people's rights to own hunting firearms. Like it or not, it was written with the provision for private citizens to own arms for their protection from a tyrannical government. It's as pertinent today as is was 200+ years ago for all of the ammendments. These are our civil liberties and the means by which to protect them from tyranny both foreign and domestic. You may think I'm a nut, but history is rife with examples of the rulers/governments oppressing it's citizenry who were unable to fight with not only guns, but with speech, protection from unlawful arrest, search and seizure, etc etc.

 

If someone chooses not to exercise their rights, it's their choice not to. I won't tell someone to go get a gun if they aren't comfortable owning one. But just because they have that opinion, doesn't mean I will let them take my or someone else's right.

 

Now before someone goes off and accuses me of saying I should be able to own a bazooka, tank, or some other such nonsense, I don't agree that I should. As I mentioned before there are thousands upon thousands of laws on the books regulating firearms. Bans on AR 15's and other weapons like them are purely a reactionary measure. If people were actually informed with facts, deaths from semiautomatic rifles is extremely miniscule compared to deaths from other types like handguns. If I remember correctly deaths from semiautomatic rifles is lower than knifes, blunt objects, personal objects (ie fist fight type contact), not total but lower than each of those types of assaults on a one to one basis every year. There may even other examples that cause more death but those I remember. So let's quit talking about it like it's epidemic proportions when the stats don't support that conclusion. If anyone questions the validity check the FBI annual reports on crime statistics. So really where is the need for the ban on these types of firearms compared to other objects that are statistically proven to be more likely used in a manner of killing someone?

 

Remember the Brady Bill from some years ago, which banned many types of "assaults style" firearms. It was statistically proven that it had very little effect on overall gun violence during the decade it was in place and compared to the time prior to enacting it. As an officer I am a "just the facts" kind of person, and when the facts don't support the arguments for new legislation I call into question the need for said laws. I have read people's opinions why they think others shouldn't own firearms or certain types of them, but have yet to see one single factual and statistically supported argument for gun control legislation beyond what's currently on the books. I don't care what you feel I should have. As a law abiding citizen why shouldn't I or anyone else?

Edited June 15, 2016 by jessemoore97

[EddieAngel 508]

The love of guns by some seem a little over the top to me and you never really get a reason other then the 2nd amendment.

 

I keep guns to be humane. If someone enters my home with the intent of hurting my family or myself, shooting them is far quicker and less painful than having to crush their skull with a hammer or attack them with a meat cleaver. I don't live in fear of it happening, but I live in a state of readiness knowing that anything can happen.

[Jim2Dokes 3]

I hunt deer with an ar15 variant rifle. I also have one in my closet that is my main home protection rifle. None of my guns accidentally go off and kill anybody. Who are you or anyone else to tell me as a law abiding citizen how I protect my children? I don't live in fear because I've prepared to defend my family. Don't take that as me attacking your beliefs on the issue because you have a right to your opinion. I've come to the realization that I'll never change an anti gun mentality in others, but I will continue to exercise my 2nd amendment rights.

 

Maybe you need that type of protection I don't know your surroundings. But note that you mentioned Chicago and know this the murders are not home invasions of people like yourself they are retaliation killings of gang members who all have lots of guns. Mostly stolen. But in reality why would you need an AR 15 for hunting? It is a little unfair and unless you really need the food it's not very sportsmanlike. I mean how many rounds do you have to pop off to kill a deer when an old Winchester 70 would do it in one. Maybe your just a good shot and prefer to not have the kick back.

[Soko 128]

Maybe you need that type of protection I don't know your surroundings. But note that you mentioned Chicago and know this the murders are not home invasions of people like yourself they are retaliation killings of gang members who all have lots of guns. Mostly stolen. But in reality why would you need an AR 15 for hunting? It is a little unfair and unless you really need the food it's not very sportsmanlike. I mean how many rounds do you have to pop off to kill a deer when an old Winchester 70 would do it in one. Maybe your just a good shot and prefer to not have the kick back.

 

Some of these guys think they are living in Soweto townships of South Africa.

 

If someone came into my home then they would steal some stuff. I'd call the police. I certainly wouldn't engage in a gun fight with someone who is also highly likely to be armed.

 

Why anyone would feel the need the need to own some of these semi automatic and automatic rifles is beyond me. But the fight for control was lost decades ago so anything that is done now is window dressing but should still be put on place re: much stricter background checks and maybe not selling guns to suspected terrorists.