Jim2Dokes 3 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 How is it too open of a right, to keep and bear arms, in the past, now, or in the future when done by law abiding American citizens? I haven't seen one rational, fact based argument brought up by gun control advocates that has refuted any of the legitimate points made by gun supporters. Because in those days it was intended so that you could walk around in your knight suit with spears. You can't even have a knife that ejects with a button nowadays but you can have a gun with the safety on the trigger (makes a lot of sense). It's outdated and had entirely different reasoning in its intention. Amendments get revised, deleted and added throughout our history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessemoore97 1,287 Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 Because in those days it was intended so that you could walk around in your knight suit with spears. You can't even have a knife that ejects with a button nowadays but you can have a gun with the safety on the trigger (makes a lot of sense). It's outdated and had entirely different reasoning in its intention. Amendments get revised, deleted and added throughout our history. In your knight suit with spears? Who's walked around in a suit of armor since say the 1500's? Last I checked only nobility or the military had or could afford armor. Which BTW guns pretty much made armor obsolete. Are you criticising the functionality of guns with the safety on the trigger? Not sure I am following you on that point. Yes there have been new ammendments added and obsolete ones taken away. It can be done, and there are articulatable reasons why they happened. I still haven't seen the reason or facts why from anyone for doing it to the 2nd with regard to law abiding American citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Gruene 26 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Because in those days it was intended so that you could walk around in your knight suit with spears. You can't even have a knife that ejects with a button nowadays but you can have a gun with the safety on the trigger (makes a lot of sense). It's outdated and had entirely different reasoning in its intention. Amendments get revised, deleted and added throughout our history. I am not a gun rights advocate, don't own a gun. But... I think the reasoning and intention of the second amendment was to prevent a centralized authority from dominating the citizenry through force. If citizens were able to be armed, that would at least cause a central authority to pause in its domination, if that were to be its intent. For example, suppose a general in a military garners huge support of the military and takes over the government, then tries to shape things the way he/she sees fit (see what I did there?). It would be one thing to do that against a citizenry who has nothing more than "knight suit with spears" to fight back with, but something altogether different to attempt to do that when the citizenry has significant means at its disposal. As unlikely as this scenario seems, it may be argued that it is unlikely precisely because of the arms the citizens currently have. I don't think that the reasoning and intention of the 2nd amendment has changed at all. I do think that there could be some effective, fair, balanced regulation of armaments in this country. I'm not conversant enough in this to know what those regulations might be or how to implement them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickman54 0 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Duuude! read my post, it doesn't matter if it's on the form. People can still put whatever down. Until it is on record there is nothing that can be done. You also can't join the military if have HIstory of mental illness, however there is no way for the military to know unless one tells them. I wasn't trying to make a point with that Jim. I wasn't sure if anyone had seen the form and thought I would post it. I'm not really debating this with anyone because I know from past experiences minds are rarely changed on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davislove 0 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 I wasn't trying to make a point with that Jim. I wasn't sure if anyone had seen the form and thought I would post it. I'm not really debating this with anyone because I know from past experiences minds are rarely changed on the subject. You know you are my favorite person on this board and anyone who has read your post about guns know that you know your stuff. That said, do you think most gun owners share your knowledge base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echo88 74 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 You know you are my favorite person on this board and anyone who has read your post about guns know that you know your stuff. That said, do you think most gun owners share your knowledge base? Unfortunately, in this country you dont need to demonstrate knowledge to act on your entitlements---voting, having children, and owning a firearm are some of the more important ones... If I had my way, everyone purchasing a gun would have to go through a safety course similar to the class required for the concealed carry permit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim2Dokes 3 Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) In your knight suit with spears? Who's walked around in a suit of armor since say the 1500's? Last I checked only nobility or the military had or could afford armor. Which BTW guns pretty much made armor obsolete. Are you criticising the functionality of guns with the safety on the trigger? Not sure I am following you on that point. Yes there have been new ammendments added and obsolete ones taken away. It can be done, and there are articulatable reasons why they happened. I still haven't seen the reason or facts why from anyone for doing it to the 2nd with regard to law abiding American citizens. It's in the definition to bear arms (wear a suit of armor) and the intent was not for guns alone but for other weapons as well such as spears, guns were not very common during the revolution time period a musket here and there. Essentially you had the right to defend your land with weapons if the redcoats or any other govt types tried to take it. We call this eminent domain nowadays and the government uses paperwork not guns but that's a diff topic. Anyways I was pointing out the irony of switch blades being illegal but you can own a gun that the safety is legally allowed to be on the trigger. Edited June 16, 2016 by Jim2Dokes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickman54 0 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 You know you are my favorite person on this board and anyone who has read your post about guns know that you know your stuff. That said, do you think most gun owners share your knowledge base? I don't claim to be an expert on guns, and I don't expect everyone to know everything about every weapon system. That being said I would say no. I've been to enough gun shows and gun shops to see some real morons talking out of their asses. i don't believe not knowing a ton about firearms precludes someone from owning them though. As long as the four basic rules of safety while handling guns are followed an inexperienced individual is not putting anyone in anymore danger than most daily activities. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessemoore97 1,287 Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 Unfortunately, in this country you dont need to demonstrate knowledge to act on your entitlements---voting, having children, and owning a firearm are some of the more important ones... If I had my way, everyone purchasing a gun would have to go through a safety course similar to the class required for the concealed carry permit... I have also batted around that concept along with giving out trigger locks with every gun purchase too. Problem is that even the CC courses have been end arounded because you can take an online course instead of classroom. In the classroom instructors are able to ask and answer questions from people face to face, and can help to walk through scenarios etc explaining to people what is legal for them to do. Secondly it allows the instructors the opportunity to actually make sure a person can safely handle a firearm, shoot it, and so forth. It gives them a chance to make sure correct guidance is given, because as you said you can act on your entitlements without knowledge of what the heck you're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessemoore97 1,287 Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 It's in the definition to bear arms (wear a suit of armor) and the intent was not for guns alone but for other weapons as well such as spears, guns were not very common during the revolution time period a musket here and there. Essentially you had the right to defend your land with weapons if the redcoats or any other govt types tried to take it. We call this eminent domain nowadays and the government uses paperwork not guns but that's a diff topic. Anyways I was pointing out the irony of switch blades being illegal but you can own a gun that the safety is legally allowed to be on the trigger. In reality the only true safety is to have your booger hook off the trigger, safeties fail and I don't trust them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltssb 1,044 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Unfortunately, in this country you dont need to demonstrate knowledge to act on your entitlements---voting, having children, and owning a firearm are some of the more important ones... If I had my way, everyone purchasing a gun would have to go through a safety course similar to the class required for the concealed carry permit... Now this I can agree with. Even getting your license you have to drive with somebody for 6 months or so, have some knowledge about how to drive, the rules, take a test and have to be able to show competentance of driving. My girlfriend who's never fired or held a gun can simply walk in and probably have a gun within hours. It does seem a little crazy to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davislove 0 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Unfortunately, in this country youu dont need to demonstrate knowledge to act on your entitlements---voting, having children, and owning a firearm are some of the more important ones... If I had my way, everyone purchasing a gun would have to go through a safety course similar to the class required for the concealed carry permit... A citizen can't commit mass murder with a vote or pregnancy. In this country we change things that no longer fit. It just makes sense that you should be competent and sane to own a gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echo88 74 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) A citizen can't commit mass murder with a vote or pregnancy. In this country we change things that no longer fit. It just makes sense that you should be competent and sane to own a gun Actually, if you're an unfit parent, you can create offspring who commit mass murder....or who turn to a life of criminal activity....both have the potential to affect me--the law-abiding citizen--and I intend to protect myself with a weapon. I doubt you'd argue that most criminals/mentally ill had a healthy upbringing. If you're an idiot who gets to vote, you can elect politicians whose foreign policy can encourage lone wolf attacks... or whose PC-fueled madness expands the chasm of racial animosity....or take away your right to protect yourself when you encounter criminals or radicalized nutjobs who were raised by unfit parents. It's all related. In this country, we don't change things that no longer fit. We have become a nation of misplaced blame. Nothing is anyone's fault. We've ushered in an era where persons are no longer responsible for their own actions. And if people aren't to blame, then what is left? Edited June 17, 2016 by echo88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echo88 74 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 I don't claim to be an expert on guns, and I don't expect everyone to know everything about every weapon system. That being said I would say no. I've been to enough gun shows and gun shops to see some real morons talking out of their asses. i don't believe not knowing a ton about firearms precludes someone from owning them though. As long as the four basic rules of safety while handling guns are followed an inexperienced individual is not putting anyone in anymore danger than most daily activities. IMO You could kill just as many people, if not more, with a bic lighter and some gas in a populated building. Lots of everyday objects, in the hands of an irresponsible or determined individual, can be turned into a weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickman54 0 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 You could kill just as many people, if not more, with a bic lighter and some gas in a populated building. Lots of everyday objects, in the hands of an irresponsible or determined individual, can be turned into a weapon. Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasher 6 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 The young black male on young black male violence skewing the numbers is definitely a valid point. I don't know that I can agree about the homogeneity of some of these countries, but I can see where you're coming from. Definitely not fair to paint the whole country with the same brush. As I've said many times on here before too, I think it's disgusting how the police are vilified in the media. Cops get shot at for no reason, nobody bats an eye. Cops take down a threat that isn't immediately in the process of shooting at them, the left loses their minds. But, again, I reiterate that the fact of the matter is, there are more gun related deaths and more mass shootings in the US than any other 1st world Westernized society. It begs the question - why??? I don't think it's something as simple as gun control, but I do believe tightening the rules about who can and cannot purchase a gun is a start, no????? If gang violence and black on black crime is responsible for most of our gun violence, doesn't it make sense to start at this end of the spectrum. And I don't mean arresting or killing them, I mean get them a good education, a good job that they can take pride in, get them believing in the American Dream, get them married and tied down with responsibilities, like children. Keep the families together and try to keep the number of baby daddies down to 1. Kind of sounds like the what white people do doesn't it? I understand that all people are not meant to go to college, but there is a crap ton of opportunities in the blighted areas that can provide jobs in the trades. There are so many empty building that need overhauls or torn down and have the building materials recycled. Many many small companies ran by black owners can do this, they just need direction, a plan, someone constantly telling them the plan and showing them success. Where are the trade schools and why doesn't every community/region have a good one? We need to create 5 to 10 million good paying jobs on the South Side of Chicago, Gary IN, Detroit, LA, in the south, northeast, hell all over the country and we need to stop bringing in cheap labor. The whole gun argument is a waste of time and will never be settled so why go that way at all. Get the shooters out of the shooter frame of mind, thinking about a bright future and then delivering that future. Its not that damn hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echo88 74 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 If gang violence and black on black crime is responsible for most of our gun violence, doesn't it make sense to start at this end of the spectrum. And I don't mean arresting or killing them, I mean get them a good education, a good job that they can take pride in, get them believing in the American Dream, get them married and tied down with responsibilities, like children. Keep the families together and try to keep the number of baby daddies down to 1. Kind of sounds like the what white people do doesn't it? I understand that all people are not meant to go to college, but there is a crap ton of opportunities in the blighted areas that can provide jobs in the trades. There are so many empty building that need overhauls or torn down and have the building materials recycled. Many many small companies ran by black owners can do this, they just need direction, a plan, someone constantly telling them the plan and showing them success. Where are the trade schools and why doesn't every community/region have a good one? We need to create 5 to 10 million good paying jobs on the South Side of Chicago, Gary IN, Detroit, LA, in the south, northeast, hell all over the country and we need to stop bringing in cheap labor. The whole gun argument is a waste of time and will never be settled so why go that way at all. Get the shooters out of the shooter frame of mind, thinking about a bright future and then delivering that future. Its not that damn hard. Can lead a horse to water.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessemoore97 1,287 Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 If gang violence and black on black crime is responsible for most of our gun violence, doesn't it make sense to start at this end of the spectrum. And I don't mean arresting or killing them, I mean get them a good education, a good job that they can take pride in, get them believing in the American Dream, get them married and tied down with responsibilities, like children. Keep the families together and try to keep the number of baby daddies down to 1. Kind of sounds like the what white people do doesn't it? I understand that all people are not meant to go to college, but there is a crap ton of opportunities in the blighted areas that can provide jobs in the trades. There are so many empty building that need overhauls or torn down and have the building materials recycled. Many many small companies ran by black owners can do this, they just need direction, a plan, someone constantly telling them the plan and showing them success. Where are the trade schools and why doesn't every community/region have a good one? We need to create 5 to 10 million good paying jobs on the South Side of Chicago, Gary IN, Detroit, LA, in the south, northeast, hell all over the country and we need to stop bringing in cheap labor. The whole gun argument is a waste of time and will never be settled so why go that way at all. Get the shooters out of the shooter frame of mind, thinking about a bright future and then delivering that future. Its not that damn hard. Amen! It's no coincidence that there is a direct connection to poverty and the crime. Another is coming from single parent households. Not finishing school is another. Unfortunately the black community leads in most of these areas which carries over to the high crime and murder rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasher 6 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Can lead a horse to water.... Not horse, horses and many will drink right away and after time, most will drink. But you are right Echo, its a rough start for many. We need to stop arguing about guns and start fixing the economy for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echo88 74 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Not horse, horses and many will drink right away and after time, most will drink. But you are right Echo, its a rough start for many. We need to stop arguing about guns and start fixing the economy for everyone. They've had ample opportunities to drink. We have the government assistance programs in place already but they are too easy to take advantage of and the bottom line is that most of these people would rather game the system than use them to improve their lives. There is no exit strategy....generation after generation of the same families live solely off my tax dollars. If illegals can flock to the U.S. in droves and find enough work to sustain themselves, the inner city contingent of the areas you mentioned can do the same. They simply choose not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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