The Case for Angeli

[tneun89 978]

After a few days to cool down from the loss, I still think it would be prudent for Freeman to consider giving Angeli ample playing time during competitive action these next three games.

Hartman has not looked good for 5-6 weeks now. In his last 5 games, he is completing 56.6% of his passes, with 4 TDs and 7 INTs. A lot of the blame falls on Parker, as well as ND having Group of Five level WRs. Hartman can only do so much. But even in the win against Pitt, Hartman looked bad. His 2 INTs were awful, and those are not throws a 24-year old, 6th year QB should make. It got worse at Clemson. His pick-six was telegraphed, he missed an open Jaden Greathouse for a TD on 3rd down in the redzone (forcing ND to kick a FG), and he missed several other open throws. Again, this does not fall solely on Hartman. The offensive coaching has been atrocious, and he has received little help from the WRs. But he is clearly not playing good football.

Angeli has flashed in mop-up duty this season. I know he's played mostly against bad competition, but he looked good and in command of the offense. Everyone seems to think ND gets another transfer QB for 2024, but I think it's a gamble to pin the season on that again. ND got someone who was thought by most to be the best transfer QB available last offseason. And ND is 7-3. (Again, a lot has to do with Freeman, Parker, and the WRs). There are a few guys who look like they'd be slam dunks, such as Michael Pratt from Tulane. But there is no guarantee he (or someone similar) comes to ND. What if ND has the answer at QB already on the roster? We won't know unless Angeli gets a fair chance during competitive action.

That said, I highly doubt Freeman benches Hartman, especially on senior day with Wake coming to town. Hartman is a leader, very well respected (named captain by his peers), and has given a lot to the University. He has been a great ambassador. 

But I think Freeman really needs to give Angeli a chance these last three games - maybe the bowl game is his tryout if Hartman sits (which I would expect). I don't think ND's chances of winning the next two games goes down even the slightest with Angeli under center. Wake and Stanford are both awful defenses against the pass (Stanford ranks dead last in passing yards allowed and third from the bottom in passing efficiency defense). Maybe the answer is to let Hartman start the first half, hope ND gets up 2-3 TDs, then let Angeli take over and run the entire offense (not just hand off and throw short passes) in the second half.

Again, I doubt this happens, but I think it should be seriously considered by Freeman and the offensive staff. I'm not advocating ND gives up on this season - 10 wins is the new goal - but I don't think playing Angeli more makes that goal any less likely than if Hartman is playing.

[AnTostal 763]

I like Angeli.  He's a good quarterback.  I think Hartman is better.  

Freeman needs to keep his job, and he needs to keep recruits coming. If ND loses either of its last 2 regular season games, in my opinion recruiting will suffer.  Gotta play the guy who gives ND the best chance to win both of those games.  In my opinion, that's Hartman.

But, I DO think it would be wise to play Angeli a lot.  Not just mop up duty, but meaningful parts of both games.  How to do that effectively would be quite a balancing act.  

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

I do not envy Freeman right now.  He surely has his work cut out for him.  Hopefully they put up enough points in the first half so its an easy decision to make.  

[nremdn 34]

43 minutes ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

I do not envy Freeman right now.  He surely has his work cut out for him.  Hopefully they put up enough points in the first half so its an easy decision to make.  

I couldn't agree more! Freeman is probably facing the biggest offseason of his coaching career and future, I hope he's the guy that rises to the challenge and does what it takes to make this a championship program. I don't think anything that happens the rest of the season on offense makes any difference (and shouldn't) to what will be done this offseason. He definitely has his work cut out for him, but this is his team and it is a reflection of his decisions thus far. I want him to be the guy that finds his way through all of this a better coach, but only time will tell.

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

Another thought...with this third loss, and yet another poor showing by Hartman...he may not bow out of the bowl game.  He may see it as another chance to show what he can do pre draft.  Although, I guess I see that as more of a possibility if they had beat Clemson and were still on track for a NY6 game.  He's got plenty of film already, why risk injury in the Bass Fishing Bowl.

[Rocketsan 768]

because his last few blockbusters went straight to dvd...

[Baldy 1,226]

11 hours ago, tneun89 said:

After a few days to cool down from the loss, I still think it would be prudent for Freeman to consider giving Angeli ample playing time during competitive action these next three games.

Hartman has not looked good for 5-6 weeks now. In his last 5 games, he is completing 56.6% of his passes, with 4 TDs and 7 INTs. A lot of the blame falls on Parker, as well as ND having Group of Five level WRs. Hartman can only do so much. But even in the win against Pitt, Hartman looked bad. His 2 INTs were awful, and those are not throws a 24-year old, 6th year QB should make. It got worse at Clemson. His pick-six was telegraphed, he missed an open Jaden Greathouse for a TD on 3rd down in the redzone (forcing ND to kick a FG), and he missed several other open throws. Again, this does not fall solely on Hartman. The offensive coaching has been atrocious, and he has received little help from the WRs. But he is clearly not playing good football.

Angeli has flashed in mop-up duty this season. I know he's played mostly against bad competition, but he looked good and in command of the offense. Everyone seems to think ND gets another transfer QB for 2024, but I think it's a gamble to pin the season on that again. ND got someone who was thought by most to be the best transfer QB available last offseason. And ND is 7-3. (Again, a lot has to do with Freeman, Parker, and the WRs). There are a few guys who look like they'd be slam dunks, such as Michael Pratt from Tulane. But there is no guarantee he (or someone similar) comes to ND. What if ND has the answer at QB already on the roster? We won't know unless Angeli gets a fair chance during competitive action.

That said, I highly doubt Freeman benches Hartman, especially on senior day with Wake coming to town. Hartman is a leader, very well respected (named captain by his peers), and has given a lot to the University. He has been a great ambassador. 

But I think Freeman really needs to give Angeli a chance these last three games - maybe the bowl game is his tryout if Hartman sits (which I would expect). I don't think ND's chances of winning the next two games goes down even the slightest with Angeli under center. Wake and Stanford are both awful defenses against the pass (Stanford ranks dead last in passing yards allowed and third from the bottom in passing efficiency defense). Maybe the answer is to let Hartman start the first half, hope ND gets up 2-3 TDs, then let Angeli take over and run the entire offense (not just hand off and throw short passes) in the second half.

Again, I doubt this happens, but I think it should be seriously considered by Freeman and the offensive staff. I'm not advocating ND gives up on this season - 10 wins is the new goal - but I don't think playing Angeli more makes that goal any less likely than if Hartman is playing.

I agree with all of this! Well said!

Oh, and here’s a run down of some of the stats you had mentioned via Tyler Horka.

So unacceptable for a six year veteran QB!

[Baldy 1,226]

Angeli appears to be making his case even stronger all by himself!

 

[jessemoore97 1,274]

27 minutes ago, Baldy said:

Angeli appears to be making his case even stronger all by himself!

 

And that is exactly the type of thing that I want to see in our offense.  A QB with the acumen, football IQ, confidence, and leadership who can be a field general rather than prairie dogging every damn play!  This is partly why so many college QBs are considered system guys and struggle in the pros, because they are not students of the game who can read a defense and audible to take advantage of a mismatch they see.  We have lacked in this area for a long time either due to our recruiting, rigid system, or shaky coaching.

[Baldy 1,226]

2 minutes ago, jessemoore97 said:

And that is exactly the type of thing that I want to see in our offense.  A QB with the acumen, football IQ, confidence, and leadership who can be a field general rather than prairie dogging every damn play!  This is partly why so many college QBs are considered system guys and struggle in the pros, because they are not students of the game who can read a defense and audible to take advantage of a mismatch they see.  We have lacked in this area for a long time either due to our recruiting, rigid system, or shaky coaching.

Completely agree!

[NDhoosier 1,229]

If what Parker said is true about the check at the line, it raises a few questions/points:
1) These coaches actually allow checks at all (which is a good thing), I wonder how percentage of college teams even allow checks and to what extend. (ie: "you are in this formation, if you see this, run... if you see this, pass")
2) How often does Sam Hartman check the call based on what he sees?
3) Surprised to see a staff that allows their backup QB to check a call in garbage in time, how often does that happen?
4) Angeli does seem to have a very high football IQ, which can be something we have not had for a long period of time.

[NDSunBowlGlory 13]

Good small sample size from the kid.  Will be interesting to see if he wins the qb battle this offseason.

[jessemoore97 1,274]

2 hours ago, NDhoosier said:

If what Parker said is true about the check at the line, it raises a few questions/points:
1) These coaches actually allow checks at all (which is a good thing), I wonder how percentage of college teams even allow checks and to what extend. (ie: "you are in this formation, if you see this, run... if you see this, pass")
2) How often does Sam Hartman check the call based on what he sees?
3) Surprised to see a staff that allows their backup QB to check a call in garbage in time, how often does that happen?
4) Angeli does seem to have a very high football IQ, which can be something we have not had for a long period of time.

This past weekend if there was ever a time for independent thought, it was the series immediately after the onside kick recovery.  Talk about a dud.

I'd be curious to know answers to the other questions, especially 1 and 2.  Perhaps ask going back a number of years too.  With proper development I figure a multi year starter would have more latitude to audible, not so much with a freshman.

 

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

From what I have gathered from listening to the Irish Breakdown podcast all season, it doesn't sound like Hartman calls many audibles.  There were sound clips of interviews where Parker was specifically asked about Hartman having the ability to audible at the line and Parker pretty much side stepped the question so much to the point that it came off as if to say he is either not allowed to or he can't.  So to hear that Angeli is audibling is surprising. 

While on the topic of Angeli, the same podcast also spoke about the amount of RPOs ran while Angeli was playing vs the lack of them when Hartman plays.  They stated that from what they see in games and what they're told from their team sources that Hartman is just not vey good at RPOs for whatever reason and if he has any NFL hopes then it is going to be one of the most important things he needs to learn.  Which was a revelation because the same podcast also stated a few games ago that they don't understand why ND doesn't run more RPOs, its something Parker has used heavily in the past.

[jessemoore97 1,274]

46 minutes ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

From what I have gathered from listening to the Irish Breakdown podcast all season, it doesn't sound like Hartman calls many audibles.  There were sound clips of interviews where Parker was specifically asked about Hartman having the ability to audible at the line and Parker pretty much side stepped the question so much to the point that it came off as if to say he is either not allowed to or he can't.  So to hear that Angeli is audibling is surprising. 

While on the topic of Angeli, the same podcast also spoke about the amount of RPOs ran while Angeli was playing vs the lack of them when Hartman plays.  They stated that from what they see in games and what they're told from their team sources that Hartman is just not vey good at RPOs for whatever reason and if he has any NFL hopes then it is going to be one of the most important things he needs to learn.  Which was a revelation because the same podcast also stated a few games ago that they don't understand why ND doesn't run more RPOs, its something Parker has used heavily in the past.

Interesting info!  Perhaps some of this explains the rumors coming out of the spring that Hartman was having trouble picking up the offense and struggled.  If it's true that he can't handle the RPO aspect of the offense, that limits portions of the playbook.  

It's interesting if he wasn't allowed to audible because of the system, or if I'm reading this correctly, he may be incapable and just can't because he lacks the acumen?  Definitely food for thought.

[NYGoldenDomer 2,046]

2 minutes ago, jessemoore97 said:

Interesting info!  Perhaps some of this explains the rumors coming out of the spring that Hartman was having trouble picking up the offense and struggled.  If it's true that he can't handle the RPO aspect of the offense, that limits portions of the playbook.  

It's interesting if he wasn't allowed to audible because of the system, or if I'm reading this correctly, he may be incapable and just can't because he lacks the acumen?  Definitely food for thought.

I don't know if the end result is he "can't" as in not allowed to or "can't" as in not able to.  That's what I meant when I said he sidestepped the question so much that I didn't know what to make of it.  Either way, its hard to believe when you have the Van Wilder of college football QBs under center.

[Rocketsan 768]

I would assume we’re gonna get Angeli in spades for the bowl game that Hartman likely will sit out. I’m excited to see what he does for four quarters.

[jessemoore97 1,274]

2 hours ago, Rocketsan said:

I would assume we’re gonna get Angeli in spades for the bowl game that Hartman likely will sit out. I’m excited to see what he does for four quarters.

Is it certain Hartman is going to sit?

[Baldy 1,226]

2 minutes ago, jessemoore97 said:

Is it certain Hartman is going to sit?

I haven’t seen anything confirmed, but I wonder if he will sit.

We all know he shouldn’t because of that bad five game stretch where he struggled big time.

I guess we’ll know here in the next couple weeks.

[NDhoosier 1,229]

I am still unsure if Hartman will sit, he may try to build his resume more because he is not a sure thing to get drafted in my opinion. I think Hartman has just as much to gain by playing in the bowl game and getting one last chance to show how well he can play against a quality opponent.