Use of force against police?

[jessemoore97 1,295]

Speedy, say it ain't so and that IN state senate + governor is going to have some common sense to squash this bill. Really feel bad for you and my brothers/sisters in IN LE if this bill goes through. Every thug out their is going to resist arrest etc on the advise of their attorney and their own interpretation.

 

The Indy Channel

 

INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana House has approved a bill laying out when people are justified in using force against police officers.

 

The House voted 74-24 Thursday in favor of the bill that's a response to the public uproar over a state Supreme Court ruling that residents could not resist officers even during an illegal entry.

 

The measure specifies residents are protected by the state's self-defense law if they reasonably believe force is necessary to protect themselves from unlawful actions by an officer.

 

Supporters said the proposal strengthens the rights of homeowners while also making clear that anyone who is committing a crime isn't justified in using force against an officer.

 

"There are citizens of this state who understand … that they need to be protected," said Rep. Jud McMillin, R-Brookville.

 

Opponents argued the Legislature shouldn't give people justification for attacking officers.

 

"Fifteen thousand disagree with this bill. The men and women that are guarding the streets that you live on right now while you're sitting here, they disagree with this bill," said Rep. Linda Lawson, D-Hammond, a retired police captain.

 

The House and Senate must still agree on a final version.

 

Reprinted with permission from The Indy Channel

[nd1baby 0]

Wow. This might encourage some heavy duty resisting. Which might lead to some heavy duty tasing, macing, shooting etc.

[dylanbg20 0]

that's not cool...

[The Duke 0]

OP: do you know the party affiliation of how those votes were cast?

[GunSlinger 28]

I saw this the other day on Police One, its outrageous. Its bad enough most dirt bags think they are lawyers and know the law, but now they are actually giving them an out. Its freaking crazy.

[nd1baby 0]

Jesse, what would you do if the police broke down your door, guns drawn, and ordered you to get on the ground, despite you having done absolutely nothing wrong? You wouldn't resist at all?

 

I'd do some fast math - I could resist and get shot and killed - then my family could get some bucks in a lawsuit. But that wouldn't make me feel better, I'd still wake up dead. If a cop pulls a gun on me then I do what he says. If a bad guy pulls a gun, then I might take my chances - maybe he's gonna shoot me anyway.

[jon33dn 0]

seems fair that if an officer doesn't declare himself/herself and make his LAWFUL ORDER CLEAR that you should assume that he is not in the commission of his duties and is therefore a normal citizen trespassing on your property.

 

it's that pesky assumption of innocence that is so difficult for a cop to stick to when he enters 'perp mode'

 

i dont get the problem?

[SpeedsterX 652]

Ok, lets not let this get out of hand. There's ALREADY assumptions here like, the officer didn't announce...

 

I'm ALL for Castle Law! I want every law abiding citizen to own a gun and know how to use it. It's not the law that's a problem here. It's the wording that makes it VERY dangerous. People WILL end up dead because of the WORDING of this law. Whether it be someone in mortal danger and Police refusing to barge in to help. Or the thugs thinking they know the law and start shooting even if a cop comes onto their property lawfully or the general public in danger due to a killer running around free because cops could not get him. The wording is terrible and you, the citizens might be the one's that pay the highest cost for it.

 

That's all I am going to say until we know if it becomes law or not.

[jon33dn 0]

Ok, lets not let this get out of hand. There's ALREADY assumptions here like, the officer didn't announce...

 

I'm ALL for Castle Law! I want every law abiding citizen to own a gun and know how to use it. It's not the law that's a problem here. It's the wording that makes it VERY dangerous. People WILL end up dead because of the WORDING of this law. Whether it be someone in mortal danger and Police refusing to barge in to help. Or the thugs thinking they know the law and start shooting even if a cop comes onto their property lawfully or the general public in danger due to a killer running around free because cops could not get him. The wording is terrible and you, the citizens might be the one's that pay the highest cost for it.

 

That's all I am going to say until we know if it becomes law or not.

 

fair enough, but what is the wording that is so problematic? I am not that informed on the topic of this particular law in IN.

[jessemoore97 1,295]

Jesse, what would you do if the police broke down your door, guns drawn, and ordered you to get on the ground, despite you having done absolutely nothing wrong? You wouldn't resist at all?

 

Even if I wasn't an officer CJ, I'd think I would handle this situation pretty much the same by not resisting. Like Speedy alluded to in his post, this bill is still up in the air and some of the wording is what may be causing the problems in its interpretation. I saw the article on PoliceOne like Gunslinger did, and posted it over here for discussion and to see if Speedy had any more intel about it.

 

I look at it this way if the police properly announce their arrival prior to kicking in my door, which at least where I'm from you're required to do so, then it's not my place to try and defend my home(Castle Rule) because I know its the police. If I've done nothing wrong and their search/investigation is faulty I will settle the matter in court to clear my name. If I know that it's the police coming through my door I should have no reason to fight them or defend myself if I'm a truly innocent person and there was a mistake made.

 

Will I be happy about the situation? Probably not, and would verbally let them know about my displeasure. Will I draw a bead on them as they come crashing my door after they announced their presence because I felt I'd done nothing wrong. Hell no! Like nd1baby said, I could try then get shot and killed and my family benefits from the wrongful death windfall. How does that help me if I'm dead? You could always sue if there was a mistake, for damage to property, mental anguish, whatever your attorney can think of. Many cities/depts are paying out to settle out of court these days for much less allegations against PD's FWIW.

[jessemoore97 1,295]

Ok, lets not let this get out of hand. There's ALREADY assumptions here like, the officer didn't announce...

 

I'm ALL for Castle Law! I want every law abiding citizen to own a gun and know how to use it. It's not the law that's a problem here. It's the wording that makes it VERY dangerous. People WILL end up dead because of the WORDING of this law. Whether it be someone in mortal danger and Police refusing to barge in to help. Or the thugs thinking they know the law and start shooting even if a cop comes onto their property lawfully or the general public in danger due to a killer running around free because cops could not get him. The wording is terrible and you, the citizens might be the one's that pay the highest cost for it.

 

That's all I am going to say until we know if it becomes law or not.

 

Speedy, I too am wondering about some of the wording with the law. You and I both know how bad this could go down, especially if other states start to follow suit with this legislation. Being a plain clothes officer, we have to be extra careful, and usually always use our raid vests with "POLICE" in big bold white letters across the chest and back area. Anymore our dept has gone to using our SRT for most search warrants.

[SpeedsterX 652]

Jesse, Gunslinger and I know damn good and well that if there's a crack to slip through for these thugs to get away with shooting a cop, there's NOT a damn thing we could say or do make them "believe" we are coming in legally!

[jessemoore97 1,295]

Jesse, Gunslinger and I know damn good and well that if there's a crack to slip through for these thugs to get away with shooting a cop, there's NOT a damn thing we could say or do make them "believe" we are coming in legally!

 

Very true. How do you feel about the no knock warrants out of curiosity? I've seen some depts that are going WAY above and beyond for announcing their presence, including blaring sirens, intercom announcements that can be heard for blocks around a residence, recording their raids etc. To me its allowing the bad guy who actually wants to shoot it out with the police, time to arm himself, set up his kill zone, etc etc. Yet it'll help to "cover" PD's if something goes wrong, like you're talking about, since the announcement of the warrant could be heard by all. Unfortunately a bad guy will still claim they couldn't hear for "x" reason, and one of us gets killed in the process.

[chirodomer 47]

This "bill" was introduced to counter a high court ruling that was passed last year that had a lot of citizens up in arms. It was essentially "The No right to resist illegal entry by an officer" aka. Any cop, any time can knock in your door and you can't resist. Now, all the cops That I know aren't going into anyone's home unless there's a fugitive or imminent danger because they know a lot of Indiana folks are armed! Here is the article so everyone knows the rest of the story.

 

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_ec169697-a19e-525f-a532-81b3df229697.html

[The Duke 0]

OP: do you know the party affiliation of how those votes were cast?

 

bump......

[echo88 74]

Jesse, what would you do if the police broke down your door, guns drawn, and ordered you to get on the ground, despite you having done absolutely nothing wrong? You wouldn't resist at all?

 

If a police entry team breaks down your door, it is an obvious mistake and not an attempt to violate your rights. Your only offense might be to live in a house with decimated house numbers, but they believe they are dealing with a violent offender.

 

You do whatever you're told to do, as you would if you were pulled over with guns drawn. There is never "no reason" for it....

[jessemoore97 1,295]

Speedy, I saw on Police One last night that the IN State Senate has passed this bill and its supposed to be on the way to the Gov. Any indication that they may veto the bill and propose some common sense to this legislation?

[jon33dn 0]

If a police entry team breaks down your door, it is an obvious mistake and not an attempt to violate your rights. Your only offense might be to live in a house with decimated house numbers, but they believe they are dealing with a violent offender.

 

You do whatever you're told to do, as you would if you were pulled over with guns drawn. There is never "no reason" for it....

 

Ok, I will go with you a bit on that line of thought. However, IF someone were to react to them as intruders, i would suggest that the homeowner be protected from prosecution.

[SpeedsterX 652]

Speedy, I saw on Police One last night that the IN State Senate has passed this bill and its supposed to be on the way to the Gov. Any indication that they may veto the bill and propose some common sense to this legislation?

 

Yep, looks like it will pass as I do not think Mitch is going to veto it. The day this becomes law is the day that I become very non-proactive. It is going to put a lot of citizens at risk. Too bad!

[chirodomer 47]

Hey Speed, remember the code to my garage and bring me up a bag of popcorn and a fizzy water!