Man: Good or Evil

[jessemoore97 1,281]

It's the off season, and I really like discussing various topics with people. I enjoy going down intellectual and philosophical rabbit holes about various subjects. So for this thread I thought it would be interesting to get incite on whether man is inheritly good or evil, or whatever similar descriptors you wish to chose.

[Rocketsan 768]

Dr. Philip Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil" is right up your alley...

[davislove 0]

It's the off season, and I really like discussing various topics with people. I enjoy going down intellectual and philosophical rabbit holes about various subjects. So for this thread I thought it would be interesting to get incite on whether man is inheritly good or evil, or whatever similar descriptors you wish to chose.

 

Good and evil is subjective. As with most liberal leaning people I see things as shades of grey and not black and white as right leaning folks often do.

 

So my answer is neither

 

I do think our morals and ethics have declined along with our desire to help others and make the world a better place. But that's just the evolution of our society.

[jessemoore97 1,281]

Dr. Philip Zimbardo's book "The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil" is right up your alley...

 

Might have to check it out. I made a thread about Dr Jordan Peterson a while ago and there are a lot of things he discusses about this subject in his lectures and books.

[Synoptico 334]

Good and evil is subjective. As with most liberal leaning people I see things as shades of grey and not black and white as right leaning folks often do.

 

So my answer is neither

 

I do think our morals and ethics have declined along with our desire to help others and make the world a better place. But that's just the evolution of our society.

 

I agree with the premise that is subjective but come to a different conclusion: Both

[davislove 0]

I agree with the premise that is subjective but come to a different conclusion: Both

 

We're so close yet so far away in our way of thinking. a lot of it comes down to the interpretation of the question: Is man inherently good or evil?

 

I don't know if you can inherently be both. It's kinda like being asked are you pro-life or pro-choice, can you say you're both? I feel like you could be neither in certain situations but being both would require some explaining..

[jessemoore97 1,281]

Good and evil is subjective. As with most liberal leaning people I see things as shades of grey and not black and white as right leaning folks often do.

 

So my answer is neither

 

I do think our morals and ethics have declined along with our desire to help others and make the world a better place. But that's just the evolution of our society.

 

I look at it from a religious context so to speak. We are born imperfect and innately sinful if you will. The development of ethics/morals by way of reason man has the capacity to become good albeit still an imperfect/sinful being.

[coltssb 1,044]

Watching Mindhunter on Netflix. It sort of dives into this. Pretty good watch.

[davislove 0]

I look at it from a religious context so to speak. We are born imperfect and innately sinful if you will. The development of ethics/morals by way of reason man has the capacity to become good albeit still an imperfect/sinful being.

 

There are different religions and different cultures that have their own standards of morals. Christianity states that we are all sinners but not everyone is a christian. Do you feel that if someone doesn't share your ethics/morals remain innately sinful?

 

I think we are all born with a need for food, shelter and some type of personal connection or interaction with others. I think any act of good or evil can be traced back to needing to fulfill one or all of those 3 things.

 

I have an aunt that was arrested years ago for trying to steal food. She was single and had 2 small mouths to feed. Is she evil for breaking a commandment and a societal, ethical code of conduct? or good for doing whatever she needed to care for someone even if she knows it's morally wrong? If you were a judge in her trial (there was none but lets say it was) how would you handle this?

 

In fact, you being a police officer have to face ethic and moral dilemmas all the time. I'm sure you have given speeding tickets and also let others go with a warning.

 

So I think do see us as good or evil. maybe we are just survivors.

[Jim2Dokes 3]

Depends on what you view as evil or good. People generally are shaped by genetics and environment. There are societal norms and what one was raisins to believe that may shape who is deemed evil or good. There are obvious cases of good and evil to what our society deems, mother Theresa vs the Las Vegas shooter. But where is the line drawn? Someone who is pro choice can and is often judged as being evil by the right. Someone who is pro choice may view someone pro life as evil as they are okay with locking women up, forcing them to do back alley abortions risking theirs lives and forcing them to have a baby after they were raped. I use that example not to start a debate, but to question the general statement of good or evil and how our world views these through a limited scope. One may use the Bible to define what is good or evil, but a large portion of the Bible was written by man, edited by man, and edited to be used as political/as a way a king wants things to be see (King James Version). Throughout history we have celebrated people far worse than the Las Vegas killer as being good. Columbus comes to mind, Andrew Jackson, Al Capone. Just some random names off the top of my head. Columbus was a mass murderer, slave trader, and rapist. Yet, he has statutes and a damn holiday.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Jim2Dokes

[jessemoore97 1,281]

There are different religions and different cultures that have their own standards of morals. Christianity states that we are all sinners but not everyone is a christian. Do you feel that if someone doesn't share your ethics/morals remain innately sinful?

 

I think we are all born with a need for food, shelter and some type of personal connection or interaction with others. I think any act of good or evil can be traced back to needing to fulfill one or all of those 3 things.

 

I have an aunt that was arrested years ago for trying to steal food. She was single and had 2 small mouths to feed. Is she evil for breaking a commandment and a societal, ethical code of conduct? or good for doing whatever she needed to care for someone even if she knows it's morally wrong? If you were a judge in her trial (there was none but lets say it was) how would you handle this?

 

In fact, you being a police officer have to face ethic and moral dilemmas all the time. I'm sure you have given speeding tickets and also let others go with a warning.

 

So I think do see us as good or evil. maybe we are just survivors.

 

Yes, because we are human, we are imperfect and have the innate capacity to commit evil acts. Every single atrocity committed throughout the history of mankind, was committed by humans, and we are all human.

 

People can try and rationalize reasons for committing "evil" acts. In your aunt's case theft is taking from another, the circumstances are what she used to rationalize the theft. At the end of the day it's still theft. What the courts decide to do with situations like that is another story. If a judge dismisses the charges due to her circumstances doesn't remove the truth that the original "evil" act was still wrong. The judge can wag his finger and say don't do that again and here are some services that can help you and your family so you don't steal again.

 

Yes, absolutely I run into all sorts of dilemmas in my profession. Most of the time we weren't present for an incident and have to rely on witnesses and the people involved to sort out what happened. Everyone has their version or truth about what occurred, not necessarily the truth but their truth. Given that each side has a version of what happened usually it's somewhere in the middle where the truth is.

 

People are innately capable of lying from a very young age. This is where a lot of this argument cuts to the heart for me about good and evil. Truth.

[Jim2Dokes 3]

Well an evil act, a behavior it would seem is different from an evil person right? Or are you saying they are mutually exclusive, his aunt is evil because in your view she committed an evil act as was this original question of the thread? What if a person robs a Wells Fargo bank and gives the money to all the people they stole from?

[nickman54 0]

Depends on what you view as evil or good. People generally are shaped by genetics and environment. There are societal norms and what one was raisins to believe that may shape who is deemed evil or good. There are obvious cases of good and evil to what our society deems, mother Theresa vs the Las Vegas shooter. But where is the line drawn? Someone who is pro choice can and is often judged as being evil by the right. Someone who is pro choice may view someone pro life as evil as they are okay with locking women up, forcing them to do back alley abortions risking theirs lives and forcing them to have a baby after they were raped. I use that example not to start a debate, but to question the general statement of good or evil and how our world views these through a limited scope. One may use the Bible to define what is good or evil, but a large portion of the Bible was written by man, edited by man, and edited to be used as political/as a way a king wants things to be see (King James Version). Throughout history we have celebrated people far worse than the Las Vegas killer as being good. Columbus comes to mind, Andrew Jackson, Al Capone. Just some random names off the top of my head. Columbus was a mass murderer, slave trader, and rapist. Yet, he has statutes and a damn holiday.

 

 

Don’t ever change

[jessemoore97 1,281]

Well an evil act, a behavior it would seem is different from an evil person right? Or are you saying they are mutually exclusive, his aunt is evil because in your view she committed an evil act as was this original question of the thread? What if a person robs a Wells Fargo bank and gives the money to all the people they stole from?

 

No I'm saying that I believe humans are born sinful, imperfect, bad, evil. All I asked was whether people think we as humans are naturally good or bad, or whatever synonymous words you want to associate with that.

 

It's difficult for people to believe they are evil or can engage in unspeakable acts of evil, or see others around them like family, friends, etc in that light. Playing on the words, if I changed good and evil/bad with perfect and imperfect regarding our natural behavior it changes the way many associate the topic. However my original premise still is the same. Is man born perfect meaning not sinful or is man imperfect and sinful.

 

People who aren't religious or are religious from varying faiths can answer the question. It's simply a discussion and how folks view the world. I didn't focus on independent or individual acts of good or evil, and responded to an example put forth. Again the question was are we naturally inclined towards one or the other.

 

One of the basic ways I look at the subject is through the lens of truth, that is do you consider not telling the truth a negative act? For me the truth comes above all else in its ideal or the ideal of perfection humans should seek to uphold. Deviation from the truth is evil/bad. I acknowledge that I'm far from perfect and at times deny the truth in my thought, word, and deed. Per my response to davislove, there are truths that people believe that may not be THE truth but are THEIR truths, and that is an important distinction. The truth is accurate, perfect, and is fact. My/their/your truth may have elements of the truth jumbled into it along with lots of subjective meanings I bring with it.

Edited February 18, 2018 by jessemoore97

[davislove 0]

No I'm saying that I believe humans are born sinful, imperfect, bad, evil. All I asked was whether people think we as humans are naturally good or bad, or whatever synonymous words you want to associate with that.

 

It's difficult for people to believe they are evil or can engage in unspeakable acts of evil, or see others around them like family, friends, etc in that light. Playing on the words, if I changed good and evil/bad with perfect and imperfect regarding our natural behavior it changes the way many associate the topic. However my original premise still is the same. Is man born perfect meaning not sinful or is man imperfect and sinful.

 

People who aren't religious or are religious from varying faiths can answer the question. It's simply a discussion and how folks view the world. I didn't focus on independent or individual acts of good or evil, and responded to an example put forth. Again the question was are we naturally inclined towards one or the other.

 

One of the basic ways I look at the subject is through the lens of truth, that is do you consider not telling the truth a negative act? For me the truth comes above all else in its ideal or the ideal of perfection humans should seek to uphold. Deviation from the truth is evil/bad. I acknowledge that I'm far from perfect and at times deny the truth in my thought, word, and deed. Per my response to davislove, there are truths that people believe that may not be THE truth but are THEIR truths, and that is an important distinction. The truth is accurate, perfect, and is fact. My/their/your truth may have elements of the truth jumbled into it along with lots of subjective meanings I bring with it.

 

Sounds like you want a yes or no type of answer with which I can't help you. I'm not a binary thinker. It's different shades of grey, not black and white for me. If you notice I never participate in those predict ND's record or score threads. I can't say we will win 8 or 10 games without knowing who will get hurt on our team or the opponents team etc. So I guess i'm not really wired to answer your question.

[jessemoore97 1,281]

Sounds like you want a yes or no type of answer with which I can't help you. I'm not a binary thinker. It's different shades of grey, not black and white for me. If you notice I never participate in those predict ND's record or score threads. I can't say we will win 8 or 10 games without knowing who will get hurt on our team or the opponents team etc. So I guess i'm not really wired to answer your question.

 

No, no, no, not looking for a yes or no from anyone. I just wanted to open up a philosophical discussion with folks. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and to me the question leads to how people see the world in some sense. Davislove I know we may see things from different views and experiences, but i feel the conversations we have are thought provoking and don't resort to name calling etc which detracts from the purpose of just having a discussion.

 

Regarding your earlier point about people being neither good nor evil, believe me I've had that same thought as well. This whole thread wasn't meant to be a you're right or wrong, pick a fight type deal. Just an honest philosophical discussion. In the past year or two I've really gotten into discussing things like this with people. Matter of factly my wife and I spoke for 4 plus hours tonight, starting with this question and going down a bunch of different avenues. It was great because rarely do we get the time to just talk about deep subjects not involving our daily grind and for such an amount of time. It's really one of the problems of the world where people can't just sit down and wax philosophical without interruption or fighting breaking out.

[Irish_Convert 1]

I like to believe that there is more good than evil out there but you generally hear more about the evil than the good, particularly on the news. Good news doesn't get sensationalized in the media like bad news. There have been many historical figures I would categorize as evil.

 

I don't think you can talk about one while denying the other. Sort of like believing in God and pretending there is no devil, one doesn't exist without the other. I also don't think that every person that commits an evil/malicious act is necessarily evil, many of them are just head cases that have a hard time discerning between good and bad/right and wrong. Some even think they're doing the right thing.

[Synoptico 334]

We're so close yet so far away in our way of thinking. a lot of it comes down to the interpretation of the question: Is man inherently good or evil?

 

I don't know if you can inherently be both. It's kinda like being asked are you pro-life or pro-choice, can you say you're both? I feel like you could be neither in certain situations but being both would require some explaining..

 

I guess my explanation is more like, depends on the man (yes I know that this really isn't the question) But I view it as some people are inherently evil, some people are inherently good. It doesn't need to be the same for everyone.

[Handsome Jack 0]

Am I evil? Yes I am.

Am I evil? I am man.

Yes I am.

- Metallica -

[jessemoore97 1,281]

Am I evil? Yes I am.

Am I evil? I am man.

Yes I am.

- Metallica -

 

Perfect lol