The choice

[Brirish09 0]

-something that I sent out to all my friends tonight, these are my thoughts on the choice before us at the most basic level. you may not agree, but I thought it would be thought provoking. Thats what a message board is for right?

 

 

To all my dear friends,

 

Sleep has not come easy tonight; my soul is troubled with the uncertainty that our nation faces. Our future will be decided by a choice. This choice is between two men; a choice between two very different philosophies. Friends, I urge you to read this before you decide who should lead this nation. I urge you to pray for our nation, and for God’s direction and guidance in our future. In a few short days we will find out how the nation decided.

 

Here is my choice-

 

Yes, Romney is not perfect, nor does he embody all of the complete tenets of conservatism that I hold close. However, Romney is a man of character, he is a leader, he is a businessman, and he has actually balanced a budget. The choice is clear for me; continue down a destructive path of government usurpations of power, encroachment on our personal liberties, towards the fiscal cliff that is inevitable if we continue to move “forward” as President Obama puts it. Or do we reverse course. Some argue that it is too late; however I must believe that there is “hope” for America, if we “change” courses.

This election is a rarity in American politics as it offers “we the people” two very distinct choices when we cast our ballots. One ideology argues that the best way to benefit the majority of the American people is through government societal planning to bring about a “collective salvation”. Where as the other ideology predicates itself on the freedom of the individual to pursue any legitimate interest that may or may not bring about happiness or success. We have two very distinct philosophies in which our decision rests. Do we as a people want more government, which ultimately will lead to tyranny and the loss of your “God given rights”, or do the American people still believe in our founding principles, which at their very core is individual liberty.

 

-- Here is an exert of a discussion I had with a friend about political philosophy, and which side would Jesus would take--

 

My response

“Liberals always tout that there needs to be a separation of religion and politics, then bring up that Jesus would side with the left because “the left wants to help everybody”. First, Jesus would abstain from this debate because well, He is kind of above politics. Second, even if we hypothetically continue this argument, I disagree with the main premise of your point. Ok, let’s get started. No, I don’t think the best way to help people is through government. It has proven to be inefficient, and ineffective. Check the statistics on how much money we have spent on the “war on poverty” and its correlation to the poverty level/unemployment level. Also, again I disagree with you on political philosophy. I don’t believe in the forced and coerced taking of private property or finances to help the “collective”. I ascribe to the belief that you deserve to pursue your own interests, not because it is coerced by the government but because these are unalienable natural rights. Through personal success or failure, you can help your fellow man, or “neighbor”, or community, out of the goodness of your own heart, not because government takes and then decides who to help. So from your perspective, Jesus would applaud the government’s coerced taking and redistributing of wealth. But I would like to point out that this takes away a personal choice to sacrifice for someone else out of the goodness of your heart and give to a neighbor or someone you come across that is struggling. By selfishly taking from others, and then having some distant government bureaucrat decide what to do with the money. How is that a personal choice to help someone? Our arguments come down to it being a heart issue, and through government doing your “charity” for you, it cannot be charity by any definition”.

 

Though the GOP may not represent all of my values, they more closely align with the core beliefs that I hold true. That is why, in a few short days, I will be casting my vote for Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.

 

REAL HOPE AND REAL CHANGE ARE ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH REAPPLYING OUR FOUNDING PRINCIPLES

 

*The Choice is clear. If the nation chooses government, which is a choice to pivot away from our history, culture, philosophy. Then we as a nation DESERVE the natural consequences of that decision.

 

-Brirish09

 

GOOD NIGHT AND GOD BLESS

[Scotty88 0]

Romney is a man of character

 

Let's subtract President Obama from the equation and focus on Gov. Romney.

 

A man of character does not say anything for the sake of gaining votes as Romney has displayed over and over. His policies have been vague and literally all over the place.

 

You would think GM debunking the false adds in Ohio would cause the campaign to pull the erroneous adds, not the case as they are still running.

 

This is a man that will say and do whatever it takes to win an election and that is not leadership.

 

Great leaders do not trail by 20 pts in their home state (or one of them)

[jon33dn 0]

Let's subtract President Obama from the equation and focus on Gov. Romney.

 

No, that is actually the choice... and it's an easy one in comparison.

 

A man of character does not say anything for the sake of gaining votes as Romney has displayed over and over. His policies have been vague and literally all over the place.

 

Vastly more detailed than any thing BO has proposed. but it's good you read the Dem talking points...

 

You would think GM debunking the false adds in Ohio would cause the campaign to pull the erroneous adds, not the case as they are still running.

 

GM is owned by the Government and the UAW, they will say whatever they are told... and Romney has been right that GM went through bankruptcy...

 

The new managemnt is doing awesome by the way... I hear they almost sold a Volt quarter...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_EARNS_GENERAL_MOTORS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-10-31-09-33-16

 

This is a man that will say and do whatever it takes to win an election and that is not leadership.

 

you are suggesting romney's campaign is anywhere close to the vacuousness of 'hope and change '08'? These two guys are politicians... this is just silly...

 

Great leaders do not trail by 20 pts in their home state (or one of them)

... i dont even know what logic this is based on... but ok, it's safe to say romney will not win Mass.

[Scotty88 0]

... i dont even know what logic this is based on... but ok, it's safe to say romney will not win Mass.

 

I guess if I have to spell it out the logic would be if Mr Romney were such a great leader he would probably at least be close in the presidential race, which he is not.

 

here you can retort the liberal voting base of Mass....but realize the same voting base that elected him Governor see him unfit as President..telling if you ask me.

[Scotty88 0]

GM is owned by the Government and the UAW, they will say whatever they are told... and Romney has been right that GM went through bankruptcy...

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57542993/gm-like-chrysler-refutes-romneys-auto-industry-ad/

 

Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne refuted Romney's comments in an email sent yesterday to Chrysler employees: "Jeep production will not be moved from the United States to China," Marchionne wrote, touting Chrysler's recent production expansions in America.

 

It was not the first time Romney claimed that Chrysler was shifting production to China, nor was it the first time Chrysler rebuked Romney's charge.

[jon33dn 0]

I guess if I have to spell it out the logic would be if Mr Romney were such a great leader he would probably at least be close in the presidential race, which he is not.

 

here you can retort the liberal voting base of Mass....but realize the same voting base that elected him Governor see him unfit as President..telling if you ask me.

 

no, you really got me there... a republican isnt going to win MA....

 

talk to me in a week.

[jon33dn 0]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57542993/gm-like-chrysler-refutes-romneys-auto-industry-ad/

 

Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne refuted Romney's comments in an email sent yesterday to Chrysler employees: "Jeep production will not be moved from the United States to China," Marchionne wrote, touting Chrysler's recent production expansions in America.

 

It was not the first time Romney claimed that Chrysler was shifting production to China, nor was it the first time Chrysler rebuked Romney's charge.

 

I could have SWORN that you made reference to GM, not Chrysler... but i suppose all of them look the same to you.

 

Good to see you change the subject when you are wrong... classic stuff.

 

But since you brought it up.

 

The Romney ad to my understanding claims:

both Chrysler and General Motors are adding jobs in China at the expense of workers in Ohio.

 

“Under President Obama, GM cut 15,000 American jobs, but they are planning to double the number of cars built in China, which means 15,000 more jobs for China,” said a radio ad running in Toledo and Dayton, where thousands of people rely on the auto industry for jobs.

 

“And now comes word that Chrysler is starting to build cars in, you guessed it, China.”

 

That doesnt say that they will stop making cars in the US, nor does it say that they are shutting down plants, but it does clearly state the reality of how many cars are being build in the US, and in China...

 

You are listening to Obama's counter ad without seeing the Romney ad first.

[Jim2Dokes 3]

I could have SWORN that you made reference to GM, not Chrysler... but i suppose all of them look the same to you.

 

Good to see you change the subject when you are wrong... classic stuff.

 

But since you brought it up.

 

The Romney ad to my understanding claims:

 

 

That doesnt say that they will stop making cars in the US, nor does it say that they are shutting down plants, but it does clearly state the reality of how many cars are being build in the US, and in China...

 

You are listening to Obama's counter ad without seeing the Romney ad first.

 

Those are not the only ads. One of which states that "Jeep production will be moved to China".

 

Also, if that was the intention to put a news story covering the automakers boosting production of vehicles in China for China, instead of a political ad then why doesn't Romney run for the CEO of CNN. You make it sound so innocent. LOL.

 

 

Lets not forget Romney saying that he would get rid of FEMA. Now is all for it after the disaster. The guy is sure a born-leader, changes his mind so much soon he will go back to being a Mass. liberal (republican standards, not mine) like before. Socialized Public health care, not against abortion, the list goes on and on the policies he now panders to right for.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Jim2Dokes

[jon33dn 0]

Those are not the only ads. One of which states that "Jeep production will be moved to China".

 

Also, if that was the intention to put a news story covering the automakers boosting production of vehicles in China for China, instead of a political ad then why doesn't Romney run for the CEO of CNN. You make it sound so innocent. LOL.

 

 

Lets not forget Romney saying that he would get rid of FEMA. Now is all for it after the disaster. The guy is sure a born-leader, changes his mind so much soon he will go back to being a Mass. liberal (republican standards, not mine) like before. Socialized Public health care, not against abortion, the list goes on and on the policies he now panders to right for.

 

These are really important criticisms... im glad we dont have to worry about anything else.

 

Im so glad GITMO is closed and we dont have warentless wire tapping anymore...

 

Im so glad that we have so many fewer people in the workforce now...

 

Im so glad that people will be able to get abortion services from catholic church funded insurance now...

 

Im also glad that all our personnel overseas can rely on the defense apparatus to come save them if they are attacked at a politically inopportune moment...

 

Need I go on? Attacking Romney is all you guys have, no record, no plan... enjoy the last few days...

[Scotty88 0]

no, you really got me there... a republican isnt going to win MA....

 

talk to me in a week.

 

Scott Brown ® is neck and neck with Elizabeth Warren (D), in MA!

 

A Republican held the office of Governor and is not within 20 pts of our President! Romney's home state (one of them:) will have nothing to do with him. Use whatever circular reasoning but the end of the story is that the people who elected him Governor see him unfit as President. Many of these people are voting GOP for senate but not in the big race. Why do you suppose that is?

 

In all honesty, it must chap your hide to watch your candidate flow more and more center after being far right in the conventions. The question is, where would he reside as president? I don't think we will ever know, but as you said we will see in a week.

[Brirish09 0]

These are really important criticisms... im glad we dont have to worry about anything else.

 

Im so glad GITMO is closed and we dont have warentless wire tapping anymore...

 

Im so glad that we have so many fewer people in the workforce now...

 

Im so glad that people will be able to get abortion services from catholic church funded insurance now...

 

Im also glad that all our personnel overseas can rely on the defense apparatus to come save them if they are attacked at a politically inopportune moment...

 

Need I go on? Attacking Romney is all you guys have, no record, no plan... enjoy the last few days...

 

Thank you Jon.

 

They literally missed the whole point of my post. When you strip all of the politics and policies away... Your left with 2 choices, between two very different ideologies. They can't even see that, all they do is attack, not debate. They have NOTHING.

 

Have fun while it lasted, brirish09 is calling a landslide in Romneys favor. Mark it down. The media, the left, will be totally blindsided- they have no idea that the conservative movement has been awakened. Even with the younger generations- obama is finished.

 

Why are you even voting for Obama anyways- be specific.

[NDsection23 0]

Have fun while it lasted, brirish09 is calling a landslide in Romneys favor. Mark it down. The media, the left, will be totally blindsided- they have no idea that the conservative movement has been awakened. Even with the younger generations- obama is finished.

 

Why are you even voting for Obama anyways- be specific.

 

1. I like many aspects of the healthcare plan. I don't think people should be denied coverage or dropped from coverage if they get sick. I also think people should have to have health insurance. I see this as very analogous to requiring people to have auto insurance. Those of us who do have health insurance shouldn't have to foot the bill when someone who decides not to pay for insurance gets sick or injured. I think the current system, with insurance companies calling the shots, is closer to having death panels than Obama's plan.

 

2. I like the approach to foreign policy. I'm happy to see many high level terrorists, including bin Laden, taken out over the last 4 years. The one blemish is the death of our diplomat to Libya, which was a tragedy. However, I don't know that it's realistic to expect that we can absolutely guarantee safety in that part of the world. I think any American living or travelling in the Middle East is taking a risk.

 

3. I don't believe that we can fix the economy solely through austerity. I think we need to reduce spending and increase revenue.

 

4. I don't believe that full-throttle trickle-down economic policies are good for the country. I do fully support tax incentives for domestic investment and job creation.

 

5. I think that Bush trashed the economy, and Republicans in the House and Senate have prioritized trying to "Waterloo" Obama over the best interests of the country.

 

Also, I don't trust Romney at all. I don't think he was an honorable, hard-working businessman who built his fortune through helping companies achieve success. I think he was every bit the "vulture capitalist" that Rick Perry and Newt Gingrich accused him of being during the primaries.

 

I have a question for you. I hear over and over that we are losing our freedom with Obama in the White House. You would think there are armed federal agents stationed in everyone's house ordering people around all day. What freedoms have you lost in the last 4 years? Be specific.

[jon33dn 0]

 

I have a question for you. I hear over and over that we are losing our freedom with Obama in the White House. You would think there are armed federal agents stationed in everyone's house ordering people around all day. What freedoms have you lost in the last 4 years? Be specific.

 

One could start with YOUR example...

 

Americans are no longer free to LIVE without a commercial product, health insurance.

 

Killings of AMERICAN CITIZENS.

President Obama now has power that Bush never had. Foremost is he can (and has) ordered the killing of U.S. citizens abroad who are deemed terrorists.

 

Naked scanners in airports.

 

Warrantless wire tapping:

The American Civil liberties Union has reported that there has been a dramatic increase in warrantless electronic surveillance under Obama and that between 2009 and 2011 the number of Americans who were subjected to telephone wiretapping more than doubled.

 

During the same time period there was a 361 per cent increase in authorizations by the Justice Department for e-mail surveillance on Americans.

 

There were 1.3 million demands on mobile telephone companies for information on their subscribers in 2011.

 

Police deptartments using drones...

 

Closure of GITMO, didn't happen.

 

More deaths in afganistan under BO than Bush: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/22/13408945-no-one-really-cares-us-deaths-in-afghanistan-hit-2000-in-forgotten-war?lite

 

 

Try this story from Salon if you want more.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/20/obamas_dismal_civil_liberties_record/

[Tenacious_ND 0]

who gives a f#ck! ND is undefeated!

[ND3 0]

One could start with YOUR example...

 

Americans are no longer free to LIVE without a commercial product, health insurance.

 

How do we build a civilized society? We can always choose to be uncivil and ignore each others' rights and civil liberties. Then we have to make all sorts of rules just to play nice in the sandbox.

 

Everybody just differs in how far we take that logic. That's all.

 

You want freedom and I like the post office. I apologize for infringing upon your freedom and civil liberties by backing a government that steals your money in order to pay for my Saturday delivery that the free market economy could produce at a much cheaper cost.

 

The Constitution says that it is the government's job to promote the general welfare of its citizens. Does healthcare fall under that blanket? I say it does, but either side has a valid argument. It can be taken either way reasonably, and I hope you respect the other side for having a valid opinion.

 

 

Killings of AMERICAN CITIZENS.

 

Who? When? Where? Reputable news source that shows Obama ordered the killing of American citizens, please. This is likely related to the NDAA, which is an atrocity that vomits all over the Constitution. FWIW, Romney said he would have signed it also. You need to look at the Libertarian candidate (Gary Johnson) to find a nominee that is not a fan of the NDAA. Anyways, I read the Salon article linked below and I checked the source they had. Not reputable at all. Seems almost like an editorial. It doesn't back up any of their statements with sources or facts. I can't take it seriously.

 

Naked scanners in airports.

 

Warrantless wire tapping:

 

Bush's Patriot Act. Should have been repealed. Both sides are at fault here.

 

Police deptartments using drones...

 

Closure of GITMO, didn't happen.

 

Do you seriously think these things would end under Romney?

 

More deaths in afganistan under BO than Bush: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/22/13408945-no-one-really-cares-us-deaths-in-afghanistan-hit-2000-in-forgotten-war?lite

 

We wouldn't even be IN Afghanistan if it weren't for Bush. The troops are leaving. That's a good thing.

 

Try this story from Salon if you want more.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/20/obamas_dismal_civil_liberties_record/

 

What I took from this article is that the government has too much power. Unfortunately, neither Democrats nor Republicans are willing to cede any of it. Only the Libertarians are.

[jon33dn 0]

You asked for a list, a specific one, and you got it. Try and diminish it as much as you like, but excuses like both sides would have done it are just that, excuses.... BO was not good for civil liberties. That was the point.

 

Specifically regarding the killing of US citizens. The NDAA is a budget act, that is not the source of the presidents legal basis for the targeted killings of US citizens.

 

Maybe you should read up on this one... I chose a nice liberal site:

 

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/01/panetta-obama-signs-killings-americans-suspected-terrorism

 

al awlaki.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/awlaki-family-protests-us-killing-anwar-awlakis-teen/story?id=14765076#.TuXmgWMr2dA

 

and another american:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Khan

[Jim2Dokes 3]

You asked for a list, a specific one, and you got it. Try and diminish it as much as you like, but excuses like both sides would have done it are just that, excuses.... BO was not good for civil liberties. That was the point.

 

Specifically regarding the killing of US citizens. The NDAA is a budget act, that is not the source of the presidents legal basis for the targeted killings of US citizens.

 

Maybe you should read up on this one... I chose a nice liberal site:

 

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/01/panetta-obama-signs-killings-americans-suspected-terrorism

 

al awlaki.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/awlaki-family-protests-us-killing-anwar-awlakis-teen/story?id=14765076#.TuXmgWMr2dA

 

and another american:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Khan

 

So why be hard-pressed to vote for Romney if he will not do anything different. All of the things he campaigns on are either now the same or will just not be possible like repealing the Health Care act. So what exactly will he do? Add business experience? He does not even have a business plan.

[NDsection23 0]

You asked for a list, a specific one, and you got it. Try and diminish it as much as you like, but excuses like both sides would have done it are just that, excuses.... BO was not good for civil liberties. That was the point.

 

Specifically regarding the killing of US citizens. The NDAA is a budget act, that is not the source of the presidents legal basis for the targeted killings of US citizens.

 

Maybe you should read up on this one... I chose a nice liberal site:

 

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/01/panetta-obama-signs-killings-americans-suspected-terrorism

 

al awlaki.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/awlaki-family-protests-us-killing-anwar-awlakis-teen/story?id=14765076#.TuXmgWMr2dA

 

and another american:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Khan

 

Jon - come on! I asked what freedoms you have lost over the past 4 years, and the best you can do is to point out that we took out a militant enemy of our country who was actively involved in trying to kill Americans.

 

I hear lots of complaining from the tea party that we are losing our freedom, I see signs that say "Keep America Free, Fire Obama," I read brirish's post saying that by voting for Obama we "continue down a destructive path of government usurpations of power, encroachment on our personal liberties" and that this "will lead to tyranny and the loss of your “God given rights”.

 

I had no idea you guys were talking about your right to go overseas, join al Qaeda, and plot terrorist attacks against the US.

 

Clearly you have not been killed overseas, and I doubt you are being detained at Gitmo. Have YOU actually lost any freedoms, or is all this talk of tyranny just a bunch of BS?

[jon33dn 0]

Jon - come on! I asked what freedoms you have lost over the past 4 years, and the best you can do is to point out that we took out a militant enemy of our country who was actively involved in trying to kill Americans.

 

I hear lots of complaining from the tea party that we are losing our freedom, I see signs that say "Keep America Free, Fire Obama," I read brirish's post saying that by voting for Obama we "continue down a destructive path of government usurpations of power, encroachment on our personal liberties" and that this "will lead to tyranny and the loss of your “God given rights”.

 

I had no idea you guys were talking about your right to go overseas, join al Qaeda, and plot terrorist attacks against the US.

 

Clearly you have not been killed overseas, and I doubt you are being detained at Gitmo. Have YOU actually lost any freedoms, or is all this talk of tyranny just a bunch of BS?

 

hey, under BO the government of the US can now kill US citizens without a trial by their peers... this is an egregious breach of article 3 of the US constitution and prob. the 6th amendment.

 

Enemy or not these were citizens. The government should not have the power to designate a citizen an enemy and execute them without trial... that is a MASSIVE problem. Im sorry you dont see that... I somehow think if this was Bush doing it you would be howling... but alas it was BO...

 

You asked for a list, you got it... and now you want it to go away b/c of what exactly... b/c I am not in Gitmo? A bunch of people are... sorry that's inconvenient to your argument.

 

You started off with the point about different interpretations of constitutional rights... fair enough... we just disagree... but you cannot explain away the reality by saying 'oh romney/bush/ insert rep. would have done the same... sorry, they were not president, BO was. and the list you got happened on his watch.

[NDsection23 0]

You asked for a list, you got it... and now you want it to go away b/c of what exactly... b/c I am not in Gitmo? A bunch of people are... sorry that's inconvenient to your argument.

 

Not quite sure what this means. All the time I hear people talking about losing their freedom under Obama. I just wanted to know exactly what freedoms people were talking about. I don't want your list to go away - it simply hasn't convinced me at all that you are any less free than you were 4 years ago. The fact that you're not in Gitmo isn't inconvenient to me at all - I'm glad you're not there! It's just a bit hard for me to believe that you identify so closely with the prisoners being held there that you feel personally oppressed. Obama didn't put them there in the first place. And just imagine what they would say on Fox News if Obama freed the Gitmo prisoners and one of them was later involved in a terrorist attack - I'm guessing they wouldn't be praising him as a champion of civil rights.

 

And no, I would not have complained one bit if al-Awlaki had been killed while Bush was the president. Again, what would Republicans and Fox News have said if Obama passed on a chance to take him out, and he was later successful in attacking the U.S.?