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Interesting thought: Lombardi v Rockne


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Guest gallup21

Who was the greater coach? Lombardi or Rockne? Post your why's and thoughts. My take on this using stats...

 

Career Record:

Rockne: 105-12-5

Lombardi: 105-35-6

 

NC/SB

Rockne: 6 NC

Lombardi: 5 SB

 

and my deciding factor: Did Lombardi not use Rockne's forward pass to win?

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Wow Nick, that's quite a comparison....probably two of them most legendary coaches ever in any sport. I agree w/ you, Knute was an innovator, a visionary; Lombardi a mastermind and technician. It's apples and oranges, but IMO it's more impressive to create something than to perfect it. I'll take Knute, even though my Italian ancestory is cringing.

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Guest irishrick

I,DISAGREE WITH YOU, KNUTE HAD TO MAKE A TEAM OF YOUNG MEN THAT HAD LITTLE FOOTBALL EXPERIENCE IF ANY, HE MADE NOTRE DAME WHAT IT IS TODAY, ON THE OTHER HAND VINCE RECIEVED THE BEST PLAYERS AT THEIR POSITIONS, PUT TOGEATHER A GREAT PLAN TO WIN GAMES WITH OUTSTANDING TALENT, FOR THIS REASON IN MY MIND COACH WILL ALWAYS BE HEAD AND SHOULDERS ABOVE MR LOMBARDI, WHO IN MY OPINION WAS AN OUTSTANDING COACH, I REALLY DON'T SEE THE COMPARISON BETWEEN THESE TWO GREATS, OTHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF VICTORIES, , APPLES AND ORANGES DIFFERENCE. I SAY HE SHOULD BE COMPARED TO SAY COACH LANDRY, NOW YOU HAVE A GOOD COMPARISON OF GREAT COACHES ON EQUAL FOOTING., THATS MY OPINION. WHAT SAY YOU ???? :)

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Guest SirJohn
:D Dunno Rick Vince (What the hell is going on here?) took a Heismen QB made him a half back. Ringo, Taylor etc then practiced practiced practiced the sweep to where it was unstopable and occasionally having Hornung throw (Which is exatly wher D Jones ought to be) to keep em honest. On the the other hand you had guys bewildered by the new forward pass so coldcocked. One is new ideas the other was pure repitition till everyone knew where they were to be at a given moment :D
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Guest irishrick

SJ THATS TRUE HE DID ALL THAT WITH talent, HE WAS A GREAT COACH I JUST FEEL THAT HE SHOULD BE COMPARED TO TOM LANDRY, THEN YOU HAVE A LEVEL FIELD, TO COMPARE in fact i think that tom landry did a fair job what say you?

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Guest SirJohn

Landry the brain and "computer guy" :lol: :lol: :lol: Lombard ywas gut check draw it in the dirt at times. :lol: Hey do you realise we are discussing two coaches most never saw? :lol: Rockne long gone and heck I followed lombardi and paul in the 50's and saw all bleeping Super Bowls. :lol: oh the empty stands and unsold cheap tickets for suoooooper bowl I ahahahaha

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Guest irishrick

yes sj i saw lombardie, and liked him a lot, good coach, no question about that, i would like to know how he compares with the other coach landry. maybe nick could get the facts on that, old knute only had one player to play for him if i remember think it was some dude named ronnie tragen . ha ha :)

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Guest irishrick

Tom Landry was born Mission, Texas, the son of a mechanic (and volunteer fireman). He attended the University of Texas in Austin, but interrupted his education after a semester to serve in the U.S. Army Air Forces during World War II as a B-17 Flying Fortress bomber pilot, flying 30 missions and surviving a crash landing in Belgium. Following the war, he returned to the university and played fullback and defensive back on the Texas Longhorns' bowl game winners on New Year's Day of 1948 and 1949. At UT, he was a member of the Delta Kappa Epsilon fraternity. He received his bachelor's degree from Texas in 1949. Landry also earned a bachelor's of science degree in industrial engineering from the University of Houston in 1952. He was a member of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

 

 

NFL playing career

Tom Landry became a defensive back in the AAFC in 1949 for the New York Yankees, then moved in 1950 across town to the New York Giants. In 1954 he was selected as an all-pro. He played through the 1955 season, and acted as a player-assistant coach the last two years, 1954 through 1955. Landry ended his playing career with 32 interceptions in only 80 games.

 

 

NFL coaching career

For the 1956 football season, Landry became the defensive coordinator for the Giants, opposite Vince Lombardi, who was the offensive coordinator. Landry led one of the best defensive teams in the league from 1956 to 1959. The two coaches created a fanatical loyalty within the unit they coached that drove the Giants to three appearances in the NFL championship game in four years. The Giants beat the Chicago Bears 47-7 in 1956, but lost to the Baltimore Colts in 1958 and 1959.

 

In 1960, he became the first head coach of the Dallas Cowboys and stayed for 29 seasons (1960-88). The Cowboys got off to a rough start, recording an 0-11-1 record during their first season and 5 or less wins in each of their next four. However, Landry's hard work and determination paid off, and the Cowboys improved to a 7-7 record in 1965. Then in 1966, they surprised the NFL by posting 10 wins and making it all the way to the NFL championship game. Dallas lost the game to the Green Bay Packers, but this season was still a display of what lay ahead: A span of 20 winning seasons from 1966 to 1985.

 

During this run, he won 2 Super Bowl titles (1972,78), 5 NFC titles, 13 Divisional titles, and compiled a 270-178-6 record, the 3rd most wins of all time for an NFL coach. His 20 career playoff victories are the most of any coach in NFL history. He was the NFL Coach of the Year in 1966 and the NFC Coach of the Year in 1975. But one of the most impressive accomplishments is his record for coaching a team to 20 consecutive winning seasons (1966-1985), an NFL record, and one of the longest winning streaks in "all" of professional sports. :D

 

Throughout his tenure, Landry worked closely with the Cowboys general manager, Tex Schramm. The two were together during Landry's entire tenure with the team. A third member of the Cowboys brain trust in this time was Gil Brandt.

 

 

The 4-3 defense

Tom Landry invented the now-popular "4-3 Defense", while serving as Giants defensive coordinator.[1] It was called "4-3" because it featured four down lineman (two ends and two defensive tackles on either side of the offensive center) and three linebackers — middle, left, and right. The innovation was the middle linebacker. Previously, a lineman was placed over the center. But Landry had this person stand up and move back two yards. The Giants' middle linebacker was the legendary Sam Huff.

 

"Landry built the 4-3 defense around me. It revolutionized defense and opened the door for all the variations of zones and man-to-man coverage, which are used in conjunction with it today." - Sam Huff [2]

Landry also invented and popularized the use of keys — analyzing offensive tendencies — to determine what the offense might do.

 

When Landry was hired by the Dallas Cowboys, he became concerned with then-Green Bay Packers Coach Vince Lombardi's "Run to Daylight" idea, where the running back went to an open space, rather than a specific assigned hole. Landry reasoned that the best counter was to take away daylight.

 

To do this, he refined the 4-3 defense by moving two of the four lineman off the line of scrimmage one yard and varied which line people did this based on where the Cowboys thought the offense might run. This change was called "The Flex Defense," because it altered its alignment to counter what the offense might do. Thus, there were three such Flex Defenses — strong, weak, and "tackle" — where both defensive tackles were off the line of scrimmage. The idea with the flexed linemen was to improve pursuit angles to stop the Green Bay Sweep — a popular play of the 1960s. The Flex Defense was also innovative in that it was a kind of zone defense against the run. Each defender was responsible for a given gap area, and was told to stay in that area before they knew where the play was going.

 

It has been said that, after inventing the Flex Defense, he then invented the offense to score on it, reviving the man-in-motion and the shotgun formation. But Landry's biggest contribution in this area was the use of "pre-shifting" where the offense would shift from one formation to the other before the snap of the ball. While this tactic was not new — it was developed by Coach Amos Alonzo Stagg around the turn of the 20th Century — Landry was the first coach to use the approach on a regular basis. The idea was to break the keys the defense used to determine what the offense might do.

 

 

Beyond the NFL

Landry was known as a quiet, religious man, unfazed by the hype that surrounded the Cowboys, then being billed as "America's Team". He was in a comic book promoting Christianity in the 1980s. Landry was active in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

 

Landry's departure came shortly after the Cowboys were sold to Jerry Jones before the 1989 season. Jones hired Jimmy Johnson, his former teammate at the University of Arkansas, away from the world of college football. Landry's unceremonious dismissal by Jones was denounced by football fans and media as totally lacking in class and respect. In the years since, while most fans retain their support for the team, there persists significant levels of derision towards Jones over his mistreatment of Landry.

 

Landry's success during nearly three decades of coaching was the impetus for his induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1990, less than two years after his last game. Landry was inducted into the "Ring of Honor" at Texas Stadium in 1993.

 

Landry died in Dallas of leukemia on February 12, 2000. He was interred in the Sparkman-Hillcrest Memorial Park Cemetery in Dallas. The Cowboys wore a patch on their uniforms during the 2000 season depicting Landry's trademark fedora.

 

A bronze statue of Landry stands outside of Texas Stadium. The section of Interstate 30 between Dallas and Fort Worth was named the Tom Landry Highway by the Texas Legislature in 2001. The football stadium in Landry's hometown of Mission, Texas was named Tom Landry Stadium to honor one of the city's most famous former residents. i think this will compare with vince? What say you

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This is a cut and paste of an article I got off the internet, I think Blue Gray Sky. It talks about the Rockne coaching tree of which, Lombardi was a part of. Since Lombardi is two levels removed from Rock, it could be assumed that much of Lombardi's influence as a coach came from what Rockne did, ultimately making Rockne partially responsible for Lombardi's success and making Rockne the better coach.

 

I couldn't find the link so here is the paste of the article. It is a great read.

 

(taken from a composite of internet resources)

 

Great coaches, of course, seem to move in packs. Bill Walsh’s coaching family tree is well documented. But Walsh's legacy is trivial compared to the royal and surprisingly short coaching lineage that connects the greatest coaches in football history to Knute Rockne.

 

Knute Rockne is the greatest coach in the 136-year history of college football. He coached 13 years, posted a 105-12-5 record and his .881 winning percentage remains unmatched at the pro or Division 1 college levels. He led the Four Horseman and the Gipper and is the spiritual father of the most successful "franchise" in North American sports, Notre Dame football. Rockne was widely considered the most innovative coach of his day. He invented the Notre Dame “shift,†foresaw the advantages of the two-platoon system long before it became popular and, as a player, is credited with popularizing the forward pass. As a coach, Rockne “attempted to outsmart his coaching peers by downplaying his squads' talent.â€

 

Rockne once had a player named Jim Crowley. In case you don't know, Crowley, a left halfback with the fighting Irish between 1922-'24, was one of the famed "Four Horsemen of Notre Dame."

 

Soon after his playing career ended, Crowley became the head football coach at Fordham in New York. Along the way, he coached a small, scrappy offensive lineman from Brooklyn named Vince Lombardi.

 

Lombardi's offensive line coach at Fordham was none other than Rockne protégé, Frank Leahy, a tackle on two of his national title teams in the 1920s who was in the locker room when Rockne delivered the most famous pep talk in sports history.

 

Leahy then helped his team win one for the Gipper. Leahy learned about coaching from Rockne while both were bedridden for two weeks in the Mayo Clinic and shared the same room. Leahy coached an unmatched four Heisman Trophy winners and stands second only to Rockne as the most successful coach in major college or pro football history.

 

At Fordham, Leahy forged the most famous offensive line in football history, the "Seven Blocks of Granite," which included the small, bull-dog tough Lombardi. According to Jack Connor, who played for Leahy at Notre Dame and who wrote the book, “Leahy’s Lads,†Leahy had a profound impact on Lombardi’s football philosophy.

 

Lombardi was later hired by a guy named Earl Lambeau, who happened to play at the University of Notre Dame under the same Knute Rockne and went on to found the Green Bay Packers.

Lombardi’s record in the NFL is well-documented. Among coaches with 100 victories, his .740 winning percentage is the best in history and, suffice it to say, the championship trophy is named for him.

By the way, Lombardi suffered his first (and only) postseason loss to Buck Shaw, who also played for Rockne.

 

The second most famous coach in college football might be Paul "Bear" Bryant who learned the trade under a man named Frank Thomas. Thomas was Bryant's football coach and mentor who went 115-24-7 (.812) at 'bama.

 

There was also book written about him, "Coach Tommy and the Crimson Tide." Thomas is second only to Coach Bryant in Alabama wins and included consecutive wins at Orange,Cotton,Sugar and Rose as well as National Championships in 1930, 1934 and 1941. Coach Thomas is a member of the Football Hall of Fame and played quarterback for Rockne at Notre Dame. He was, according to Coach Rockne, the smartest player he ever coached. His roommate and best friend at Notre Dame was the famous George " The Gipper" Gip.

 

Back to Lombardi. Lombardi’s "pet" player at St. Cecilia’s (like Hornung was later at Green Bay) was a kid named Mickey Corcoran. The name Corcoran might not be well-known in coaching circles. But he became a New Jersey high school coach and, according to Lombardi biographer David Maraniss, passed Lombardi's lessons and coaching strategies on to his players and “to his own disciple ... a North Jersey boy named Bill Parcells."

 

Parcell's most famous protégé might now be more famous than he is, the Patriots' Bill Belichick. The two won a pair of Super Bowls with the N.Y. Giants. Belicick went on to guide the Patriots to three super bowl wins in four years.

 

Belichick's coaching tree begins with a man named Nick Saban who won a national championship at LSU. His tree continues with Cleveland Brown head football coach Romeo Crennel and current Irish head coach Charlie Weis, who brings the Rockne legacy back full circle to its birthplace.

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Stank - nice find :lol: :lol: I was thinking of Fordham (wife and her entire family are Ram alums), Leahy and the 7 blocks of granite as I ran down this thread and hit your find.

 

IMO Rockne was first and the best college coach of all-time. End of story.

 

IMO Lombardi was the greatest NFL coach of all-time. End of story.

 

Of course, I am biased - ND is my favorite college team, and the Packers (due to the Golden Boy) is my favorite NFL team.

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Stank,

 

Grew up in Michigan City by the lake - where Leahy lived. Grandparents were friends with them, and my Dad went to school with Leahy, Jr. Am a ND legacy and still live in LaPorte County. (Didn't play football like my Dad, but he made me a Packers fan b/c he was friends with the Golden Boy).

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Guest irishrick

MICHIGAN CITY A NICE PLACE TO VISIT WAS THERE LAST JUNE FOR A DAY THEN HEADED TO THE 'MOST BEAUTIFUL CAMPUS IN THE WORLD., in south bend, I JUST WISH THAT THE CITY WOULD TAKE A LITTLE MORE PRIDE AND CLEAN IT UP SOMEWHAT, PARTS ARE OK BUT I THINK THAT THE CITY FATHERS COULD PERSUADE :( :( FOLKS TO DO MORE WHAT SAY YOU ??,

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