I am getting sick of everyone being too much of homer to question this guy. Losing Trattou officially means in my mind that we've done nothing impressive since the Clausen commit. Everyone else we've gotten we should have gotten, and there have been a lot more guys we should have gotten that we didn't. At this point, this class has failed to live up to expectations. I thought the one way to salvage this class was to add one or two unexpected defensive players. Nobody amazing, but solid guys who'll have a chance to play in 2 years or so. As it is we lost our crown jewel of the defensive class. Officially, I am about as close to going off the reservation as possible.

 

I know no one likes using the stars system, but that gives us a grand total of 1 defensive recruit who is listed as a defensive front 7 player (Kerry Neal). That makes a grand total of 2 over the past 2 years (Kellen Wade). In my opinion those are Willingham-esq kind of numbers. As a matter of note TW had 3 four-star front seven players in his first two years (Laws, Abriamiri, and Vernaglia).

I am getting sick of everyone being too much of homer to question this guy. Losing Trattou officially means in my mind that we've done nothing impressive since the Clausen commit. Everyone else we've gotten we should have gotten, and there have been a lot more guys we should have gotten that we didn't. At this point, this class has failed to live up to expectations. I thought the one way to salvage this class was to add one or two unexpected defensive players. Nobody amazing, but solid guys who'll have a chance to play in 2 years or so. As it is we lost our crown jewel of the defensive class. Officially, I am about as close to going off the reservation as possible.

 

I know no one likes using the stars system, but that gives us a grand total of 1 defensive recruit who is listed as a defensive front 7 player (Kerry Neal). That makes a grand total of 2 over the past 2 years (Kellen Wade). In my opinion those are Willingham-esq kind of numbers. As a matter of note TW had 3 four-star front seven players in his first two years (Laws, Abriamiri, and Vernaglia).

 

I think you need to specify that you mean 1 defensive 4-star recruit this year, and 2 4-star recruits in the last two years. As currently written, your post doesn't reflect that.

 

Considering that Vernaglia has mostly taken up space on the bench, I think he can be taken off your TW list.

 

I really am curious, and I'm not being sarcastic - if Charlie isn't the guy, who would you like to see coach the team?

We just have to hope that he made the right decision in getting corwin because until we can prove we can play defense we aren't going to get that many top notch defensive players. The reason i'm saying that is because charlie is only known for offense that why we are getting great offensive players. There is nothing much else that he can do when recruits see our D play. The only problem I've had with him recruiting wise is him believing these recruits that say they are going to commit and don't while not having a back-up plan. We could've had gotten some pretty good plan b guys(Josh brent, Andrew Dailey, Consaltei, And Keck). We still got some good pick-ups

on d this year even though the way our D played which i give him credit for.

Though 2008 is major for us in D recruitng.

I just think that this board specifically isn't able to critically examine the job that CW has done. I won't argue that his first 18 months of the job he exceeded expectations, however that past year or so has been just so-so in terms of what we should expect from the Notre Dame head coach. Additionally, he's continued to do a good job on the offensive side of the ball, but defenses win championships and as it stands now our defensive front seven recruiting has been subpar.

 

In terms of guys I would rather have than Charlie, at this point no one. However, I do think that those in power should have a few names on the "watch list" who might be available after the 2008 season. Charlie's gotten us into a much better position than we were in after Willingham was fired. In coaching sometimes the guy who turns a program around is not always the same as the guy who wins big.

A well thought and equally felt post 'bluester'. I will not question your stance, because we both want the same thing...the Fighting Irish Of Notre Dame back on top. But IMO, Coach Weis has delivered, but thus far only on the offensive side of the ball. Is it fair to hold Coach Weis totally accountable for Minters ways? To a degree sure...I mean, he is the head coach. But in the end he did correct this problem in only his second year. And how could he have known that an early commit such as Justin would just up and go? Did any of us?

 

Yes I am a 'Homer'...I will always see the positive to even the negatives. I can't help it...I am a fan. Maybe I am blind, or just maybe I feel I have nothing, if not faith?

So again, I honestly appreciated your passion 'bluester'. Then again, I will always attempt to see the good in all things Irish!

Sure Coach Weiss has delivered...I just have some questions for him...and since I'm never going to get the chance to sit down in the living room and chat it out...I will just wait and let the Irish football team answer them on the field.

G O I R I S H!

I just think that this board specifically isn't able to critically examine the job that CW has done. I won't argue that his first 18 months of the job he exceeded expectations, however that past year or so has been just so-so in terms of what we should expect from the Notre Dame head coach. Additionally, he's continued to do a good job on the offensive side of the ball, but defenses win championships and as it stands now our defensive front seven recruiting has been subpar.

 

In terms of guys I would rather have than Charlie, at this point no one. However, I do think that those in power should have a few names on the "watch list" who might be available after the 2008 season. Charlie's gotten us into a much better position than we were in after Willingham was fired. In coaching sometimes the guy who turns a program around is not always the same as the guy who wins big.

 

Bluester, by my count Charlie has been the coach for just over 23 months...somehow, the months are not adding up here. But assuming that you think that his underachieving began this past season...I don't know. No one thought we'd be anywhere near a BCS bowl. We've had two. Defensive recruiting hasn't panned out for sure. The offense should be among the best we've ever seen at ND, if not the best. Offensive firepower can go a long, long way.

 

Like you, I'd love to see some top-notch defensive recruits commit early and often for 2008. But I think any talk of Weis being dismissed is incredibly premature. He's bought himself time and a lot of good will with his start here. He's lost almost exclusively to the current top 5 programs in the country, with the exception of MSU, and hopefully that curse has now been broken. If your standard is that ND should always be in the top 5, then you're in for a lot of heartbreak, no matter who the coach is.

Sorry, I didn't check my facts, he was named early December of 2004, he's been coach for a grand total of 25 months and 13 days.

 

And I don't take BCS appearances as a sign that we're an elite team. Sorry. Louisville and Wake Forest were both in the BCS this year, they're not elite as far as I'm concerned. I've come up with 3 reasons why teams end up in the BCS: 1) They deserve it, 2) They are conference champs, 3) They bring in tons of $. I think each time we've made it's been for reason #3.

 

So instead of using the BCS as a measuring stick (considering that even Bob Davie made it to a BCS game), I would instead focus on the actual in game performance. In my opinion in Charlie's second year we didn't have any great games nor did we beat any great teams. In order to be a great team you have to do both.

 

Anyways, the mistakes us fans have made in the past are that we've had too much faith in coaching staffs, without being able to critically appraise their strengths and weaknesses. I think most people on this board specialize on focusing on Charlie's strengths, so I'm here to keep everyone grounded.

I think Weis, objectively, has done a great job getting ND back on the track towards elite status.

 

On the offensive recruiting, Weis has done an exceptional job. On defensive recruiting, he's had some bad luck and has not had a plan "B". He can be faulted for raising the expectations very high.. and not meeting them.

 

We lost out on Butch Lewis because McCoy backed out on us, apparently... Weis should have taken Butch early for security.

 

We lost out on Martin, Donald, Tez and now.. Trattou. For LBs, we're doing okay.. we did get Nagel and Paskorz... I had the impression that Colasanti and Dailey were on par with Nagel and Paskorz... we were looking to fill the last LB slot with a higher calibre player in Donald.. and we never had a chance with Gallippo. So, we missed on Donald.

 

Martin, Tez are DE/OLB hybrids... and Trattou is a traditional DE. We couldn't close on the first two. Why? Minter.. of Cinncinnati fame... couldn't close Martin. Why? because he was a lacklustre recruiter, and his on-field product was poor.

 

Fortunately we did get Neal.. who is also a DE/OLB hybrid. We also have Morrice Richardson (OLB/DE).

 

Trattou.. I am afraid got spooked by CB (my pet theory).. he's been convinced that he has no future in a 3-4 (my urban pet theory)... should it ever materialize. .. or he had a real blast a FLA and decided he wasn't an ND guy... whatever. My gut says that his family would rather he go to ND, but it's ultimately Justin's call... you just don't decide to troop the whole family out to ND on an unofficial if you don't have a preference.

 

Also, this supposed aversion to the 3-4 is ridiculous... we'd use it if we had the personnel.. which we don't... and even if we did.. it's one of the more successful schemes in the NFL...so I'd want to play/know it.

 

So, what has caused our dearth at D recruiting, especially DL & LB... well, Minter was the LB coach... Oliver is DL coach... think that has something to do with it? I do.. we have simply not developed the D recruits up and past potential as we have done on offense (my rationalization).

 

 

Who knows what is going on in these kids minds... but IMO, it would appear that kids like Trattou & Blackwell would rather go to programs that are over-deep at position in the belief they'll be better trained, than get early play time... which runs counter to most the kids on O -- see Benn.

 

rant = off

Blue definitely makes some good points here. But I agree that it is not panic time just yet. As far as having a list....any good manager (White) ALWAYS has a list. If you don't think he already does then your thinking is a bit naive. What happens if CW dies tomorrow? Point is....there IS a list.

 

That being said he isn't getting fired anytime soon. ND almost always (exception being the Washington golfer) gives the coach at least 5 seasons. That is the end of 2010 I believe. You can bet your happy little backside that this years recruiting will be hot and heavy on the D side of the ball. If the 08 class is impressive and D heavy...then we are no longer having this conversation.

 

How about we give CB a chance. Let the young energetic guy go out and beat the recruiting path. I have a funny feeling about this guy...and in a good way. I think he will make a lot of mistakes this year, but I really have a gut feeling that he is going to make a big name for himeself on the recruiting trail. How would you feel about having a couple 5* and several 4* D comits this time next year. I'd be ecstatic.

We said last year that the 2007 class would focus on defense, emphasizing and focusing on the front seven. Charlie didn't get the job done this year. He did okay with the players he has gotten, but couldn't close the deal with the guys at the top of his list.

Losing Trattou officially means in my mind that we've done nothing impressive since the Clausen commit. Everyone else we've gotten we should have gotten, and there have been a lot more guys we should have gotten that we didn't... As a matter of note TW had 3 four-star front seven players in his first two years (Laws, Abriamiri, and Vernaglia).

Blue I agree that CW hasn't quite filled our needs on D, no disputing that.

 

Idk how you can possibly say that everyone we got we should've gotten....consider Gary Gray, Armando Allen, and Ian Williams before you make that statement again.

 

Also, you're right TW did get those 4 star guys, and to be honest their carreers at ND were disappointing considering all of the talent that they had....none of them got to the QB. I'm not placing all the blame on them either, a lot of it had to do with the coaching. IMO with Brown as DC the guys we have will be put in position to make plays and we will see a HUGE change in defensive recruiting in the 08 class.

I am getting sick of everyone being too much of homer to question this guy. Losing Trattou officially means in my mind that we've done nothing impressive since the Clausen commit. Everyone else we've gotten we should have gotten, and there have been a lot more guys we should have gotten that we didn't. At this point, this class has failed to live up to expectations. I thought the one way to salvage this class was to add one or two unexpected defensive players. Nobody amazing, but solid guys who'll have a chance to play in 2 years or so. As it is we lost our crown jewel of the defensive class. Officially, I am about as close to going off the reservation as possible.

 

I really think that the administration is more to blame than the coachin staff. Urban chose not to be hamstrung by ND's archaic admissions program for athletes. Who gives a DAMN if the guy got a 15 or a 21 on his ACT. Fill our team with talent. ND is the biggest moneymaking program in college football. This will not continue without a National Championship! Hate to say it boys but Admissions screwed us on Benn! Tony Rice was a prop 48 and he won the NC for us! C'mon! Give me a break. ND would be a great influence on guys like Noel Devine. Ask yourself. Would Noel be better off spending 2-3 years at ND or 2-3 years somewhere else? The church wants me to donate to charity but ADMIN isn't willing to take a chance on a kid? Hypocritical if you ask me!!!! Football has NOTHING to do with school! It is a business! There, I said it!

This debate has been going on a long time. It's seems like Charlie has made an inroad in admissions with the EE, but its going to be a very tough fight.

This is only CW 2nd real class. His first class he was planning to win the Superbowl. This recruiting class we be in the top 10 agian, We must give him some time to get the players HE wants. Don't forget he has been playing with players he did not recuit. Things start to change this year with the soph. starting to have some playing time. He will get the defensive players he wants in the future. Lets face the truth, there was alot wrong with this program from recruiting to coaching and 2 recruiting classes are not going to fix the problems just like that. He will get it done but we must let him get it done.

The excuses that I am hearing make me laugh! Haw haw! Now, I see why the pro teams don't want coaches having control over personnel issues! Think about this, If a school were to pay professional recruiters and utilize Sagarin's player analysis program for recruiting HS players based off of facts instead of stars, could you imagine the effects that a program and player personnel director could have on a coaches' success? Sagarin and a stat teacher at Indiana University already sell a NBA version of this to the Mavericks. It also tracks what offensive and defensive player sets makes the team the most competitive. How much you want to bet that Belichek starts using this for the Patriots! The A's use Homerun? For their baseball team! Really makes sense! I get paid to solve problems! Who has my check?

Wow - some prima donna decides to decommit and some in ND Nation are ready to throw CW to the wolves.

 

Now I agree that our D has basically been more "Nasty" the past 2 years to watch than to play against, however, CW fired the guy who was running that "Nasty" D. If CW didn't make a change then I think everyone would be justified in throwing him to the wolves, however, he hired someone who hopefully will put the Nasty back in ND.

 

Secondly, look at the recruits CW has/is bringing in. They don't compare top to bottom to any classes we have had since Holtz was there. Sure there is a lack of defensive recruiting and perhaps the firing of Minter was in direct response to the lack of performance on the field as well as his inability to get recruits to come to ND.

 

Face it - CW is not going anywhere and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Good post Double_Domer In a way it has to be fans responsibility. I seem to remember a huge majority wanting to can Minter. I can't recall many posts if any, on what it might do to our D recruiting.

Thanks Sir John.

 

By the way, CW didn't call me to discuss the firing of Minter, but I would have said "Damn the recruits, full speed ahead!"

You have to question the backup plans because its 2 years in a row Weis has been jilted at the alter by top defensive players, Trattou not included. The numbers are pretty paltry and thats why everyone gives Ty such a hard time. I do have the incredible confidence in Brown's recruiting abilty though. I honestly believe he could have counter acted everything Zook said and reeled Wilson in. He was born to play OLB in a 3-4 and will play in on Sundays if he progresses

I totally agree with what Chiro said ealier in regards to the administration being the problem and not the coaches!

 

Let's face the facts--unless we can get the elite players year in and year out, we will not be an elite team competing for NC's year in and year out. ND simply can't go after most of the elite defensive players in the country because of the strict admissions standards. It doesn't matter who is coaching the team--If you can't even recruit most of the top defensive players then you can't compete with the other elite football programs who can.

 

IMO ND needs to relax the admissions standards a little bit in order to bring in some of the top D kids. The administration needs to make a choice and say we want to be an elite football program OR we want to be an elite academic institution. In today's CFB landscape, you simply can't be both. Name me another ELITE academic school that has won a NC in the last 30 years other than ND back in '88. It simply can't happen anymore. You might get lucky and have a great year once every ten years or so, but you can't compete for NC's year in and year out if you can only seriously recruit 20-30% of the nations top HS players every year because of the admissions standars.

 

Until this issue is addressed, I think ND needs to lower their expectations of being an elite football program and be happy with 9-3 seasons.

 

I personally don't want to lower expectations and I want to compete for NC's year in and year out, but if the administration continues to hamstring our coaching staff we simply won't be able to.

 

Go Irish!