After a few days I realized what I meant this topic to be. Instead of rewriting the whole thing, I'm using the magic of the edit button

So I was confused. It is a 3-3-5 on 1st down which is odd. Why? because a 3-3-5 is a substitution or nickel defense. 

 

However,

Modern spread offense has forced defenders to be smaller and quicker. This has created the ROVER or SNIPER position. It replaces the WLB as a starting position for Freeman.

Freeman takes it farther then Lee and Elko. Lee Elko used a 4-2-5 Freeman uses more 3 down lineman 3 backers  and 5 Dbs.

Thank you to all who post on this topic and sorry about my initial confusing presentation.

@ndfanatic78what do you see in the picture?

Is this a simply a "nickel" or "dime" package (I honesty do not know)? Does it matter whether or not the middle layer are LBs or DBs. It looks as there might be at least 3 LBs based on player size (top player on the 45 yard line looks LB to me, bottom two on 45 look DB).

 

here's more

3 down

3 in the gaps(1 covering TE)

2 in space

3 deep

 

 

1 hour ago, jbrown_9999 said:

Is this a simply a "nickel" or "dime" package (I honesty do not know)? Does it matter whether or not the middle layer are LBs or DBs. It looks as there might be at least 3 LBs based on player size (top player on the 45 yard line looks LB to me, bottom two on 45 look DB).

except he uses it much the game. So because of the spread nickel and dime defenses are shifting the profile of linebackers. Outside linebackers are looking more and more like safeties, its wild. 

8 hours ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

@ndfanatic78what do you see in the picture?

I see a 3-4 with the safeties shifted to the WR stack side.

6 hours ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

 

here's more

3 down

3 in the gaps(1 covering TE)

2 in space

3 deep

 

 

Here I see also see a 3-4. 1 corner playing bump and run, 1 corner playing off and 2 standard safeties playing deep

1 hour ago, ndfanatic78 said:

Here I see also see a 3-4. 1 corner playing bump and run, 1 corner playing off and 2 standard safeties playing deep

Turns out its a 3-3-5. Here's an article.. https://notredame.rivals.com/news/notre-dame-dc-marcus-freeman-on-his-defensive-recruiting-philosophies-1 and the quote 

Quote

Quote

“It's just funny how it evolved. I don't even know how we got to the name dollar,” Freeman said. “We renamed what used to be a Sam linebacker. For recruiting, we went to change the name to a sniper, because we thought it would be more attractive for the kids to come play sniper. Then all of a sudden, we evolved and we said, 'let's call this 3-3-5 a dollar package.' Then we changed the name to a dollar.

“Us coaches sometimes get really creative. I don't know exactly what it all meant. But it is a Dollar Package, and our players were able to do a good job within the scheme.”

 

 

2 hours ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

Turns out its a 3-3-5. Here's an article.. https://notredame.rivals.com/news/notre-dame-dc-marcus-freeman-on-his-defensive-recruiting-philosophies-1 and the quote 

 

So is the only difference the athletic ability and size of the player? Wouldn’t it just be a 3-4 with an undersized lb and they are calling him a db. Same formation. Same basic play call just smaller quicker player. A rose by any other name is still a rose right? Not arguing just not picking. ??

Edited July 15, 20213 yr by ndfanatic78

20 minutes ago, ndfanatic78 said:

So is the only difference the athletic ability and size of the player? Wouldn’t it just be a 3-4 with an undersized lb and they are calling him a db. Same formation. Same basic play call just smaller quicker player. A rose by any other name is still a rose right? Not arguing just not picking. ??

The trade-off modern teams is we are  going give up 15 pounds and tackling ability in the run game to maybe intercept a deep pass in the middle/ or get a sack fumble on a speed blitz.

This is common place on 3rd down as @jbrown_9999referred too the 3-3-5 nickel has been a 3rd down substitution for years. But we are now seeing it as a base defense, on 1st and 2nd down, where running games are used. So you might see the end of the outside linebacker, like the end of the fullback. Interesting to football nerds like me is all.

9 hours ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

The trade-off modern teams is we are  going give up 15 pounds and tackling ability in the run game to maybe intercept a deep pass in the middle/ or get a sack fumble on a speed blitz.

This is common place on 3rd down as @jbrown_9999referred too the 3-3-5 nickel has been a 3rd down substitution for years. But we are now seeing it as a base defense, on 1st and 2nd down, where running games are used. So you might see the end of the outside linebacker, like the end of the fullback. Interesting to football nerds like me is all.

Definitely a good discussion. The nickel and dime formations I’m used to substituted DBs for LBs but they also were placed deeper in the secondary rather than in typical LB position and playing closer to the line. That’s why I still would call the formation a 3-4 because you still have 3 down lineman and 4 up around the line of scrimmage and 4 playing coverage. I know it’s all semantics and coaches can name a formation what ever they want.

3 hours ago, ndfanatic78 said:

Definitely a good discussion. The nickel and dime formations I’m used to substituted DBs for LBs but they also were placed deeper in the secondary rather than in typical LB position and playing closer to the line. That’s why I still would call the formation a 3-4 because you still have 3 down lineman and 4 up around the line of scrimmage and 4 playing coverage. I know it’s all semantics and coaches can name a formation what ever they want.

Good call! I need to look at the depth of the DB! I'm in a wheelchair so I never played football. A physical therapist showed me how to draw plays in exchange for finishing a workout and he sent them to Holtz and Holtz sent me back a signed football and I was hooked. Then I played Madden, got hooked more. 

 

Thanks for participating and telling me more about what playing football is actually like,

Agreed, this is a great topic. I struggled with the initial question (had to count up the positions like 5 times) and couldn't realize why. After reading the comments, I realized it's because, in my haste, I was conflating 3-5-3 with 3-3-5.

I don't see this as simply a 3-4 with a secondary player pushed up. But, I suppose your interpretation will depend on what you consider JOK. Clearly, the NFL is still trying to figure out what to call a "heavy safety" that plays up against the line. In college, I suppose it's easy enough to call him an LB but the fact is that his size and, more importantly, his responsibilities are a lot different than a traditional LB's, even WLB's in a 3-4. 

I think this is where you continue to see the EA-Gaming happening at the collegiate level out-pacing pro ball - these 3-5-3'ish, defenses take what have been unicorn novelties in the NFL (e.g., Belicheck's SB Run-n-Gun D scheme) and make them a go-to defense. Frankly, it's been long overdue given the prevalence of spread-option/wildcat offenses the past 10-20 years. Those offenses change the offense to the point to where traditional run defenses are just not applicable, IMHO.

3 hours ago, soulpatch said:

Agreed, this is a great topic. I struggled with the initial question (had to count up the positions like 5 times) and couldn't realize why. After reading the comments, I realized it's because, in my haste, I was conflating 3-5-3 with 3-3-5.

I don't see this as simply a 3-4 with a secondary player pushed up. But, I suppose your interpretation will depend on what you consider JOK. Clearly, the NFL is still trying to figure out what to call a "heavy safety" that plays up against the line. In college, I suppose it's easy enough to call him an LB but the fact is that his size and, more importantly, his responsibilities are a lot different than a traditional LB's, even WLB's in a 3-4. 

I think this is where you continue to see the EA-Gaming happening at the collegiate level out-pacing pro ball - these 3-5-3'ish, defenses take what have been unicorn novelties in the NFL (e.g., Belicheck's SB Run-n-Gun D scheme) and make them a go-to defense. Frankly, it's been long overdue given the prevalence of spread-option/wildcat offenses the past 10-20 years. Those offenses change the offense to the point to where traditional run defenses are just not applicable, IMHO.

yeah, in the option this guy can run the alley(covering the pitch). In coverage he can cover a middle field route by a slot or a TE and in the blitz he's alot quicker then a tackle. there are many for a Coordinator to leverage. 

 

Hey all, if you are wondering what happened my opening post was a mess, so I eliminated the poll question and rewrote the opening post, so more people might see what I think is a fun discussion.

5 hours ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

Good call! I need to look at the depth of the DB! I'm in a wheelchair so I never played football. A physical therapist showed me how to draw plays in exchange for finishing a workout and he sent them to Holtz and Holtz sent me back a signed football and I was hooked. Then I played Madden, got hooked more. 

 

Thanks for participating and telling me more about what playing football is actually like,

I never played on a team either friend. Just watched a shite ton of ND games, played back yard, and good ole EA sports NCAA football. So I claim no authority just honest discussion on observations. Also you have taught me a ton from your break down of formations. So much respect.

Here's a very good article.

https://www.si.com/college/notredame/film-room/notre-dame-football-film-room-marcus-freeman-base-defense

 

So Freeman has

3-3-5

a 3-2 box

4-2-5

and even a 4-3 over that he has shown depending how many tight ends are in the game,

It will be interesting to see if Freeman will change how much he plays 3 DL vs 4 DL due to ND's elevated talent. Again, with players being more hybrid/tweeners at certain positions given the need to cover more space some of this is merely semantics/evolving terminology.  If an edge defender stands up and sometimes drops into coverage, is he a DL or LB?

1 hour ago, jbrown_9999 said:

It will be interesting to see if Freeman will change how much he plays 3 DL vs 4 DL due to ND's elevated talent. Again, with players being more hybrid/tweeners at certain positions given the need to cover more space some of this is merely semantics/evolving terminology.  If an edge defender stands up and sometimes drops into coverage, is he a DL or LB?

He very well could. Though I just think he has a natural tendency toward "front reduction" like Dave Aranda does. Before head coaching Baylor, Aranda coached at LSU and Wisconsin, LSU won the National Championship, where you are right Aranda used more defensive lineman. However, at Wisconsin he used more 2 or 3 DL, multiple linebackers and multiple safeties. I compare Aranda to Freeman because of the creative schemes and how much LSU wanted them. 

Freeman recruited 4 linebackers this cycle, 2 guys who can hang inside, 2 guys that will likely be outside, So that makes me think in the future he wants to be able to put quite a few linebackers out there, I might be totally off-base and I think Elston has our D-Line coached up so well, that this  year you'd see a 4-2-5 anyway because of how the roster is made up.

Another factor is will Freeman get a head coaching job  before we see what he has in mind? This coming year he  has alot of pieces returning like MTA and Hinish, he  will keep them productive. Its like he will end up coaching Lea's guys, I wonder if we'll see him coach his own recruits? 

Defenses are flexible. You'll see 3 down and 4 down I'm sure. 

My guess is a 3-3-5 is similar to a 4-2-5 except for the framework with what you build out your defensive line. There's obviously nuance to what the backers and corners/safeties are responsible for.

With a 3 man front, you need a war-daddy Nose man with 2 more guys who can 2 gap so that your backers can fit the run or bring the pressure(blitz) without getting blocked.

With a 4 man front you need a flexible DL who can eat up the double team while your other 3 down defeat the one on one to get pressure and your backers are responsible for pass coverage and run defense. 

You'll need different body types for a 3 down and 4 down. You can't reliably put a 3 down backer on the line to put his hand in the dirt if he's a 240 WLB in a 3 down scheme to play a 4 down scheme. And you cant put a pass rushing 4 down lineman in the backfield and expect him to drop coverage as effectively.