Moving this discussion from the 2023 recruiting thread.

My question was why does ND seem to be behind other top programs in terms of the QB position. Is the offensive scheme, QB development, or lack of WRs which is preventing ND from recruiting/developing championship level QBs? I was challenged that there did not seem to be a trend of other top programs having top QBs. In looking at the numbers, since 2017 Clemson, Alabama, Oklahoma, and Ohio St all recently have had two first round picks at QB. It does appear that there is indeed a trend and one for which ND has fallen behind.

Alabama

Drafted
2014 - A.J. McCarron (5th Round) 
2020 - Tua Tagovailoa (1st Round)
2021 - Mac Jones (1st Round)

Recruited
2017 - 5* #32
2018 - 3* 
2019 - 4* #180; 4* #321
2020 - 5* #2
2021 - 4* #81
2022 - 5* #25

Oklahoma

Drafted
2013 - Landry Jones (4th Round)
2018 -     Baker Mayfield (1st Round #1)
2019 -     Kyler Murray (1st Round #1)
2020 - Jalen Hurts (2nd Round)

Recruited
2017 - 4* #172
2018 - 4* #249
2019 - 5* #4
2020 - 3* #448
2021 - 5* #6
2022 - 

Clemson

Drafted
2014 - Tajh Boyd (6th Round)
2017 - Deshaun Watson (1st Round)
2021 - Trevor Lawrence (1st Round #1)

Recruited
2017 - 5* #30
2018 - 5* #1
2019 - 4* #216
2020 - 5* #10
2021 - 3* #385
2022 - 4* #65

Ohio St

Drafted
2016 - Cardale Jones (4th Round)
2019 - Dwayne Haskins (1st Round)
2021 - Justin Fields (1st Round)

Recruited
2017 - 4* #56
2018 - 4* #331
2019 - Justin Fields Transfer (5* #2)
2020 - 4* #42; 4* #334
2021 - 5* #27
2022 - 5* #1

Notre Dame

Drafted
2017 - DeShone Kizer (2nd Round)
2021 - Ian Book (4th Round)

Recruited
2016 - 3* #517
2017 - 4* #246 (Avery Davis)
2018 - 4* #83 (left for BC)
2019 - 3* #521
2020 - 4* #225
2021 - 4* #70; 3*
2022 - 4* #223
 

Thanks jbrown it’s nice to be able to see all the data like that. I don’t think you would get many people to disagree that ND has been behind those other top schools listed recruiting QBs. Where we will disagree is why. Also as we would probably agree the Recruiter ( ie.QB,OC,Head coaches) plays a most significant role. But I think ND’s “problem” goes beyond that. Sure a Freeman type recruiter would help. I think ND does a poor job identifying QBs and offering / building relationships early. ND offense scheme can be very boring.  ND is all about team/school maybe some focused PR on the QB. ND has been winning and that is going to help too.  I bet ND coaches/ administration have already had the same discussion on QB recruiting.

And I think if they give Tyler Buchner some serious playing time, it will show that Kelly is willing to take a chance on you early. That Kelly isn’t going to play based on seniority like some kind of union.

Edited July 13, 20213 yr by ND_JACK

Trying to move discussion about recruiting QBs to this thread

On 7/13/2021 at 11:26 AM, ND_JACK said:

Thanks jbrown it’s nice to be able to see all the data like that. I don’t think you would get many people to disagree that ND has been behind those other top schools listed recruiting QBs. Where we will disagree is why. Also as we would probably agree the Recruiter ( ie.QB,OC,Head coaches) plays a most significant role. But I think ND’s “problem” goes beyond that. Sure a Freeman type recruiter would help. I think ND does a poor job identifying QBs and offering / building relationships early. ND offense scheme can be very boring.  ND is all about team/school maybe some focused PR on the QB. ND has been winning and that is going to help too.  I bet ND coaches/ administration have already had the same discussion on QB recruiting.

And I think if they give Tyler Buchner some serious playing time, it will show that Kelly is willing to take a chance on you early. That Kelly isn’t going to play based on seniority like some kind of union.

Is it the chicken or the egg?

Do you need a 5* QB to have an explosive offense or do you need an explosive offense to attract 5* QBs?

Rees should be on notice.  IMO, Kelly should give him another year and reevaluate.  I would not have opened up the offense last year for more passing with the WRs they had.  In the short term, I absolutely think Kelly should recognize that ND hasn't recruited QBs well outside of Buchner and take the lead on the recruiting trail.  QBs like Buchner or better should be the standard every year.  

BTW, Oklahoma just received commitment from Malachi Nelson, #2 QB and #5 overall rated player for 2023.

Quote

Now with Nelson on board, he is the third top-30 quarterback to commit to Oklahoma over five recruiting classes.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/31840371/oklahoma-football-strengthens-impressive-2023-recruiting-class-junior-300-qb-malachi-nelson

ND just hasn't had one work out recently is my thought. Phil and Buchner are/were the guys. ND needs to shoot higher with the in between classes, absolutely no doubt there. Phil breaking out with Buchner in the wings likely makes this convo fairly quiet. Phil was beat down so badly by Chip Long he was thinking about switching to TE. Pyne is a 5* QB with regard to football IQ and savy but a 3* body. I thought Clark was a nice pickup with potential but injuries have derailed that. ND needs a few electric WRs too, which will help the cause. All of those teams above have managed to find some flash and electricity with their offense at QB and WR at the same time. Then it has rolled from there. 

10 hours ago, Big23Head said:

ND just hasn't had one work out recently is my thought. Phil and Buchner are/were the guys. ND needs to shoot higher with the in between classes, absolutely no doubt there. Phil breaking out with Buchner in the wings likely makes this convo fairly quiet. Phil was beat down so badly by Chip Long he was thinking about switching to TE. Pyne is a 5* QB with regard to football IQ and savy but a 3* body. I thought Clark was a nice pickup with potential but injuries have derailed that. ND needs a few electric WRs too, which will help the cause. All of those teams above have managed to find some flash and electricity with their offense at QB and WR at the same time. Then it has rolled from there. 

 

chip long and mike sanford were QB killers 

10 hours ago, Big23Head said:

ND just hasn't had one work out recently is my thought. Phil and Buchner are/were the guys. ND needs to shoot higher with the in between classes, absolutely no doubt there. Phil breaking out with Buchner in the wings likely makes this convo fairly quiet. Phil was beat down so badly by Chip Long he was thinking about switching to TE. Pyne is a 5* QB with regard to football IQ and savy but a 3* body. I thought Clark was a nice pickup with potential but injuries have derailed that. ND needs a few electric WRs too, which will help the cause. All of those teams above have managed to find some flash and electricity with their offense at QB and WR at the same time. Then it has rolled from there. 

 

10 hours ago, Big23Head said:

ND just hasn't had one work out recently is my thought. Phil and Buchner are/were the guys. ND needs to shoot higher with the in between classes, absolutely no doubt there. Phil breaking out with Buchner in the wings likely makes this convo fairly quiet. Phil was beat down so badly by Chip Long he was thinking about switching to TE. Pyne is a 5* QB with regard to football IQ and savy but a 3* body. I thought Clark was a nice pickup with potential but injuries have derailed that. ND needs a few electric WRs too, which will help the cause. All of those teams above have managed to find some flash and electricity with their offense at QB and WR at the same time. Then it has rolled from there. 

In 11 years, Kelly has only had two QBs get drafted. I guess there is progress in that they have been two out of his last three.  

38 minutes ago, Jburkdd12 said:

chip long and mike sanford were QB killers 

Hopefully Rees will be the exception to the less then stellar set of OC's which Kelly has hired.

Charley Molnar (Current QB coach at Idaho)

Chuck Martin (Current HC at Miami OH but had never coached offense before)

Mike Denbrock (Current OC at Cincinnati)

Mike Sanford, Jr. (Current OC at Minnesota)

Chip Long (Current OC at Tulane)

Tommy Rees (First time OC at ND)

1 minute ago, jbrown_9999 said:

Hopefully Rees will be the exception to the less then stellar set of OC's which Kelly has hired.

Charley Molnar (Current QB coach at Idaho)

Chuck Martin (Current HC at Miami OH but had never coached offense before)

Mike Denbrock (Current OC at Cincinnati)

Mike Sanford, Jr. (Current OC at Minnesota)

Chip Long (Current OC at Tulane)

Tommy Rees (First time OC at ND)

Man I hope so... This year will be interesting as I think they will be way better on offense with Coan than Book. 

On 7/20/2021 at 12:31 PM, jbrown_9999 said:

 

In 11 years, Kelly has only had two QBs get drafted. I guess there is progress in that they have been two out of his last three.  

While I get using draft capital as a measure, I think it's pretty flimsy. Of all the QB's drafted at the other schools you've mentioned, only three of them have made a meaningful impact (if you consider Baker and Kyler as making an impact, which is arguably a stretch).

That's not to say there are valid arguments to be made about those programs and the impact their QB's have made on the field, I just think drawing from their actual collegiate production would be a more direct path to supporting the argument.

4 hours ago, soulpatch said:

While I get using draft capital as a measure, I think it's pretty flimsy. Of all the QB's drafted at the other schools you've mentioned, only three of them have made a meaningful impact (if you consider Baker and Kyler as making an impact, which is arguably a stretch).

That's not to say there are valid arguments to be made about those programs and the impact their QB's have made on the field, I just think drawing from their actual collegiate production would be a more direct path to supporting the argument.

If one is looking to recruit 5* prospects, then draft results matter since elite recruits want to go to a school which will help them get drafted in early rounds. NIL opportunities may start to come into play as well.

From that perspective, then Baker Mayfield looks good.

In addition, if you are discounting draft results as a measure of a program's QB development, then what else does Kelly have to offer as an inducement for QB recruits after 11 years at ND? Kizer's 18 games in the NFL?

Edited July 21, 20213 yr by jbrown_9999