ndomer4 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) I’m curious to know what schools you guys would rank ahead of ND in this day and age. This might actually change with the fair pay to play act or whatever it’s called, but as of now I see numerous jobs more attractive than ND. Better/tier 1 USC Bama LSU Auburn Clemson Oregon Oklahoma Ohio State Texas Florida State Florida Georgia Similar/tier 2 ND Michigan Penn State Tennessee Texas A&M To add my reasoning, all teams above ND have more recently won a title or have been able to show they are very capable of winning one. None have restrictions, all basically have better weather and I’m sure you get paid more at all the other schools. We have some obvious advantages with exposure, academic prestige, brand and a few others. Facilities and such at all these schools are probably a wash. If Meyer was choosing I think he’d pick any school in tier 1 simply because his path to a title is easier and more realistic. Edited November 4, 2019 by ndomer4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrown_9999 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 I see things like this: Better/tier 1 USC Bama LSU Clemson Oklahoma Ohio State Texas Florida Georgia Similar/tier 2 ND Auburn Michigan Florida State Texas A&M Tier 3 Oregon Tennessee Penn State Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawaiiirish Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 I think this program at present is clearly a top ten job, Its not just about are we a top ten team.....we have a very high profile, we get enormous exposure, we have a stellar reputation , although we have recruiting barriers we also have some clear recruiting advantages as well. I think when you balance everything about this program against others both tangibles and intangibles then... As a coaching job we are still a top ten destination IMHO aloha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golson5 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 I see things like this: Better/tier 1 USC Bama LSU Clemson Oklahoma Ohio State Texas Florida Georgia Similar/tier 2 ND Auburn Michigan Florida State Texas A&M Tier 3 Oregon Tennessee Penn State I agree with this mostly. Id remove Tennessee from tier 3. I dont think that is a good job and that program is done. Id move PSU up to tier 2. Id put Miami in there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gloves Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 Oregon is definitely a tier 1 job. With all the money Nike puts in that school they can compete with anyone. Plus their facilities are unreal. Any coach would want that job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrown_9999 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 Oregon is definitely a tier 1 job. With all the money Nike puts in that school they can compete with anyone. Plus their facilities are unreal. Any coach would want that job. That Nike money has not resulted in Oregon becoming a true Tier I football school. A Tier I school would recruit in top 10 more than just once in 14 years. Recruiting 247 ranking by year for Oregon: 2008 34 2009 30 2010 12 2011 12 2012 14 2013 19 2014 21 2015 16 2016 27 2017 19 2018 13 2019 7 2020 15 2021 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELDER06 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 It’s a top 10 job if you want to get paid. ND can outspend anyone aside from Texas (oil $) and Oregon (Nike). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELDER06 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 I agree with this mostly. Id remove Tennessee from tier 3. I dont think that is a good job and that program is done. Id move PSU up to tier 2. Id put Miami in there I wouldn’t put Miami there. They don’t have the infrastructure or $. No doubt the recruiting area is excellent, but I’m not sure the U has the same impact on kids that it did 20 yrs ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndomer4 Posted November 4, 2019 Author Share Posted November 4, 2019 I should have been more specific, think of yourself as a coach ranking these jobs if your only goal is winning a national title. Meyer chose Florida over us and I think he would choose FSU or USC over us if given the options again. So even if me having Auburn or Oregon is debatable, one has won a title recently and both have been competitive in title games recently. Our title game showing hurt us more than anything. We have also never won or to my knowledge been competitive in a BCS game. You could say this is a product of Kelly but we’ve seen the same result with two other coaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrown_9999 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 It’s a top 10 job if you want to get paid. ND can outspend anyone aside from Texas (oil $) and Oregon (Nike). If coaching monetary compensation is the number one criteria for how a school is ranked then Texas A&M is the number one school for a coach since they have committed the most guaranteed money to their coach. I think that there are more variables involved than just dollars though hence why I think A&M is a Tier II school from a coaching perspective. Also, while ND can pay a coach more than just about anyone, the real question is whether or not they will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishGuy Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 It’s a top 10 job if you want to get paid. ND can outspend anyone aside from Texas (oil $) and Oregon (Nike). ND is not known as a place to get paid. Well, to be fair you said "can" and not "will". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golson5 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 I wouldn’t put Miami there. They don’t have the infrastructure or $. No doubt the recruiting area is excellent, but I’m not sure the U has the same impact on kids that it did 20 yrs ago. Put a big time coach (Meyer) and you got a dynasty. Location recruiting history. That place is a sleeping giant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gloves Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 That Nike money has not resulted in Oregon becoming a true Tier I football school. A Tier I school would recruit in top 10 more than just once in 14 years. Recruiting 247 ranking by year for Oregon: 2008 34 2009 30 2010 12 2011 12 2012 14 2013 19 2014 21 2015 16 2016 27 2017 19 2018 13 2019 7 2020 15 2021 11 I look at it as a whole and not just recruiting. If a good coach goes there will they have all of the resources to compete in every area? Oregon pretty much ticks off every box with the exception of weather. They have deep pockets though and some of the best facilities out there. Cristobal is already making a huge impact on recruiting as well. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if the Ducks make the playoffs this year. They are good. Look how they throttled SC last weekend in LA. We nearly lost to them at home. I think it is definitely a tier one program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessemoore97 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 I should have been more specific, think of yourself as a coach ranking these jobs if your only goal is winning a national title. Meyer chose Florida over us and I think he would choose FSU or USC over us if given the options again. So even if me having Auburn or Oregon is debatable, one has won a title recently and both have been competitive in title games recently. Our title game showing hurt us more than anything. We have also never won or to my knowledge been competitive in a BCS game. You could say this is a product of Kelly but we’ve seen the same result with two other coaches. I absolutely view ND as a tier one destination, and that's not me being a homer either. National exposure every week due to an extensive and large fan base. The upgrades and addition to our facilities are on par with pretty much every other school in the country, and let's face it we also have the ability financially to stay in that arms race too. We took a big leap in those areas under CW and BK. Recruiting can still get 5* players to come here over the other blue bloods, winning consistently has shown that not to mention there are actually recruits and their families who value the academic and cultural offerings ND brings to the table. Football glory, which comes from winning at natty here compared to other places will rocket you to a pantheon of greatness that few schools can could ever provide. Our tradition is arguably unmatched. The position is not for the faint of heart. But I am certain that given the current state of the program there are good coaches who would take up the challenge. Finding them is another story. Last point. I followed the Urban/ND saga all those years ago very closely. There were a multitude of reasons Urban didn't follow his "dream" to coach here. Two of the biggest from my perspective were as follows. The AD at Florida had overseen Urban and worked with him at Utah and had a great relationship with him. Overtures from Florida to Urban had been sent long before ND even considered jumping on the Urban sweepstakes and firing TW in year 3 which was unheard of for ND canning a coach before year 5. It took Jenkins taking over for Monk and others to make that happen. Urban asked for concessions and didn't get what he wanted. This was the make or break portion if there was going to be a deal. ND's recruiting and depth was pitiful because of TW. He had one good class with Quinn et al and some talent from Davie, that CW was able to gather success in 2005 and 06, then the bottom fell out. Without concessions to get immediate studs, perhaps Jucos into the program, success was going to take a lot longer to achieve if it could've been done at all. Florida was still riding high in recruiting under Zook in spite of the results on the field. Honorary mention his wife didn't like SB and Florida was much more attractive to the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndomer4 Posted November 5, 2019 Author Share Posted November 5, 2019 I agree with all your points Jesse, but you note my two major points of contention for ND when ranking the schools. Weather and restrictions, and this is why I think Urban would spurn us again if given the chance. You can’t compare ND to any of the tier one schools I listed and think it’d be easier to win a title at ND. I’m not sure if the dedication in the classroom takes up too much time to master the playbook or train, but we clearly haven’t been able to compete on the biggest stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jessemoore97 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 I agree with all your points Jesse, but you note my two major points of contention for ND when ranking the schools. Weather and restrictions, and this is why I think Urban would spurn us again if given the chance. You can’t compare ND to any of the tier one schools I listed and think it’d be easier to win a title at ND. I’m not sure if the dedication in the classroom takes up too much time to master the playbook or train, but we clearly haven’t been able to compete on the biggest stages. Classroom and the field are similar in that they both require effort by the student athletes, and yes we still adhere to the student part of the equation unlike many other schools. There is absolutely a market for really good and in some cases elite players who will value both aspects that ND offers. It takes effort from the coaches to find the players for one, and it takes winning consistently on the field as the other part. I'm not a fan of saying this per se, but IF we win our remaining games and a bowl we will be 11-2, which by most is considered a successful season without going into the nuances of the season/program like we do. Recruits see a three year run of 10+ wins and in the discussion for playoffs each year and think hey maybe I want to be a winner there plus our placement of NFL talent in recent years. I'm a broken record on what I see, coaching and development is what kills us in big games and holds us back. Heck even in lesser games we too often have issues. I think if Kelly and Saban traded teams we would see Bama decline and ND get better. I just think there is no amount of talent Kelly can get to succeed and ascend to the top of D1. It's him, his hires, the schemes, game day decisions, game planning and prep, etc etc. He has arguably been able to achieve enough to keep his job and improve the program in many ways compared to when he got here. ND on their part also stabilized the program, like it or not, by being able to keep him here. We are in the best place we have been since the mid '90's. That's got to mean something to some good coaches out there. Talents coming in, upgraded facilities and staffing, the programs is the stablest it's been it 20+ years. Not singing his praises at all, but I understand a few things and have to give him some props. He's not going to get us over those final obstacles, but hopefully can leave us in a state where the next guy, whoever and whenever that may be, believes he can finish it and put us back on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VCDomer Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Classroom and the field are similar in that they both require effort by the student athletes, and yes we still adhere to the student part of the equation unlike many other schools. There is absolutely a market for really good and in some cases elite players who will value both aspects that ND offers. It takes effort from the coaches to find the players for one, and it takes winning consistently on the field as the other part. I'm not a fan of saying this per se, but IF we win our remaining games and a bowl we will be 11-2, which by most is considered a successful season without going into the nuances of the season/program like we do. Recruits see a three year run of 10+ wins and in the discussion for playoffs each year and think hey maybe I want to be a winner there plus our placement of NFL talent in recent years. I'm a broken record on what I see, coaching and development is what kills us in big games and holds us back. Heck even in lesser games we too often have issues. I think if Kelly and Saban traded teams we would see Bama decline and ND get better. I just think there is no amount of talent Kelly can get to succeed and ascend to the top of D1. It's him, his hires, the schemes, game day decisions, game planning and prep, etc etc. He has arguably been able to achieve enough to keep his job and improve the program in many ways compared to when he got here. ND on their part also stabilized the program, like it or not, by being able to keep him here. We are in the best place we have been since the mid '90's. That's got to mean something to some good coaches out there. Talents coming in, upgraded facilities and staffing, the programs is the stablest it's been it 20+ years. Not singing his praises at all, but I understand a few things and have to give him some props. He's not going to get us over those final obstacles, but hopefully can leave us in a state where the next guy, whoever and whenever that may be, believes he can finish it and put us back on top. Right on. This is where I see it. He has hit his ceiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corysold Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Classroom and the field are similar in that they both require effort by the student athletes, and yes we still adhere to the student part of the equation unlike many other schools. There is absolutely a market for really good and in some cases elite players who will value both aspects that ND offers. It takes effort from the coaches to find the players for one, and it takes winning consistently on the field as the other part. I'm not a fan of saying this per se, but IF we win our remaining games and a bowl we will be 11-2, which by most is considered a successful season without going into the nuances of the season/program like we do. Recruits see a three year run of 10+ wins and in the discussion for playoffs each year and think hey maybe I want to be a winner there plus our placement of NFL talent in recent years. I'm a broken record on what I see, coaching and development is what kills us in big games and holds us back. Heck even in lesser games we too often have issues. I think if Kelly and Saban traded teams we would see Bama decline and ND get better. I just think there is no amount of talent Kelly can get to succeed and ascend to the top of D1. It's him, his hires, the schemes, game day decisions, game planning and prep, etc etc. He has arguably been able to achieve enough to keep his job and improve the program in many ways compared to when he got here. ND on their part also stabilized the program, like it or not, by being able to keep him here. We are in the best place we have been since the mid '90's. That's got to mean something to some good coaches out there. Talents coming in, upgraded facilities and staffing, the programs is the stablest it's been it 20+ years. Not singing his praises at all, but I understand a few things and have to give him some props. He's not going to get us over those final obstacles, but hopefully can leave us in a state where the next guy, whoever and whenever that may be, believes he can finish it and put us back on top. Great post. Kelly isn't a bad coach, he just isn't a great coach. As a late 30s Chicagoite, it's Doug Collins and Phil Jackson. Doug Collin was pretty good with the Bulls and Jordan. But he couldn't win big. Phil Jackson won 6 titles. Some coaches are really good. Some are great. ND has a really good one. They need a great none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcubby Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 BK is really good. Not sure who is great wants to come to South Bend. Getting guys in is huge and I don’t want to lessen that. But that hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golson5 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Great post. Kelly isn't a bad coach, he just isn't a great coach. As a late 30s Chicagoite, it's Doug Collins and Phil Jackson. Doug Collin was pretty good with the Bulls and Jordan. But he couldn't win big. Phil Jackson won 6 titles. Some coaches are really good. Some are great. ND has a really good one. They need a great none. I think that had more to do with Pippen developing and improving his game. While Jordan got more mature and into his physical prime. Coupled with Boston Detroit LA getting older. But I get your point lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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