I've learned recently that ND players of the 1940's and Early 1950's had an Edge to them because Frank Leahy had that edge to him. From being unafraid to start spring practice when he wanted too, or directing his team at practice when he wanted to, to being hard on Coach Brennan who was the coach after him. Leahy seems like that guy who got an edge and was that competitor.

 

Current comparisons might be Bill Belichick, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer.

 

Leahy seemed to be willing to do whatever it took to win. It seems to be hard to on one hand maintain that Disney wholesomeness and that Edgy win at all cost mentality.

 

Belichick hasn't. At times dismissive with the media, all sorts of competitive edge scandals involving video and deflated footballs. Yet winning makes New England not quick to want a coach who is different.

 

Meyer recently wanted to find out who was the Cameraman who bumped into JT Barrett, in a very edgy sort of way.

 

Saban has had several press conferences that made Youtube for his interactions with the media. He signs the maximium number of recruits virtually every year and yet 100 become 85 before anyone gets in trouble every year..

 

How does ND return to that edgy tough team it was before there was a 24 hr. news cycle?

 

Here's a video about Leahy getting his team the shade during a very hot day in texas.

 

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This video was just to much fun not to share as well.

 

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Edited December 1, 20177 yr by FaithInIrishForever

Kinda hard to compare because you're talking different eras and coaches. I will say that the current team often does not play with an edge when it counts.

 

I don't know. This team has come out with a good bit of energy and determination when the chips were down, it just seems to be a team that struggles to maintain momentum. Sometimes it seems like they start to coast a bit in the second half when they have a lead.

The University, coaches and players weren't soft during the Leahy and Rock eras like they are now.

The University, coaches and players weren't soft during the Leahy and Rock eras like they are now.

 

Will you explain what you mean by this?

The University, coaches and players weren't soft during the Leahy and Rock eras like they are now.

 

Yes, HJ please enlighten us on your personal experience during these times...

The team isn't soft. It takes a high degree of mental and physical toughness to endure the workload at ND and play high level football. It is the wrong word to use.

 

However, there is an emotion issue. Kelly intentionally neuters his teams emotions. He preaches a business-like approach, and treating every game the same way. I suspect he does it to keep them from having emotional swings which could be detrimental to an already stressed individual.

 

It is probably a good approach against lesser teams, when you know the guys won't get fired up for it. Holtz always said you can only really get a team fired up a few times a year and the rest of the time you need to just be business-like and get a win.

 

However, there are times when you need to ride emotion. Miami kicked ND's tail because of emotion (was Richt telling his guys this was just another game?). ND folded in Palo Alto because of emotion. Big games are obviously big games, and you are lying to your guys telling them playing Temple is the same thing as playing Miami.

 

Sometimes you need to get the guys jacked up. It is a mistake to remove the human element of competition.

Will you explain what you mean by this?

 

Yes, HJ please enlighten us on your personal experience during these times...

 

I'll explain it to you. And since you're from Cincinnati, you may enjoy it.

 

My Dad played for Cincinnati Xavier. He was recruited by Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame-all the Midwetern universities- as an offensive guard. Football recruiting was regional back then. He decided to go to Notre Dame. By his junior year, he started getting playing time at left guard. During preseason practice of his senior year- practices started in July- he hurt his knee during a live pass blocking drill. The doctor put a cast on his leg. While walking to the South Dining Hall the next day, coach Leahy saw my dad walking in his cast. Leahy walked up to him and said, "...those doctors will put a cast on a wart. You take off that cast, come to practice and I'll tell you if you're injured". So, my dad went back to his dorm room and cut off the cast. He was in pain, and went down a few times during the season, but he played the entire year. He had surgery for torn ligaments in the spring.

 

I think the main difference today are (a) advances in surgical procedures and (b) medical redshirts and the NFL. Today, elite players who had the injury my dad had would get scoped, sit out a year and return. Back then, you had 4 years and players did anything they could to stay on the field. My dad's best friend on the team-who went to Cincinnati Purcell- got 44 stiches at the half of the USC game and played the second half. The other thing to consider was how deeply talented those Leahy teams were. The players knew if they went down with an injury they could get replaced very quickly.

 

I've been watching ND football a long time. I don't think Kelly's teams are particularly tough compared to Ara's and Holtz's. There's more, "I'm hurting, get me out of here" body lanquage in Kelly's team imo. I think it's fairer to compare Ara and Lou than it is Leahy when assesing pain thresholds. Also, Kelly doesn't have near the depth that Ara, Lou and Leahy had. So, the fear of getting permanently replaced is not as strong for a guy who is hurting.

Edited December 1, 20177 yr by Frankus

I'll explain it to you. And since you're from Cincinnati, you may enjoy it.

 

My Dad played for Cincinnati Xavier. He was recruited by Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame-all the Midwetern universities- as an offensive guard. Football recruiting was regional back then. He decided to go to Notre Dame. By his junior year, he started getting playing time at left guard. During preseason practice of his senior year- practices started in July- he hurt his knee during a live pass blocking drill. The doctor put a cast on his leg. While walking to the South Dining Hall the next day, coach Leahy saw my dad walking in his cast. Leahy walked up to him and said, "...those doctors will put a cast on a wart. You take off that cast, come to practice and I'll tell you if you're injured". So, my dad went back to his dorm room and cut off the cast. He was in pain, and went down a few times during the season, but he played the entire year. He had surgery for torn ligaments in the spring.

 

I think the main difference today are (a) advances in surgical procedures and (b) medical redshirts and the NFL. Today, elite players who had the injury my dad had would get scoped, sit out a year and return. Back then, you had 4 years and players did anything they could to stay on the field. My dad's best friend on the team-who went to Cincinnati Purcell- got 44 stiches at the half of the USC game and played the second half. The other thing to consider was how deeply talented those Leahy teams were. The players knew if they went down with an injury they could get replaced very quickly.

 

I've been watching ND football a long time. I don't think Kelly's teams are particularly tough compared to Ara's and Holtz's. There's more, "I'm hurting, get me out of here" body lanquage in Kelly's team imo. I think it's fairer to compare Ara and Lou than it is Leahy when assesing pain thresholds. Also, Kelly doesn't have near the depth that Ara, Lou and Leahy had. So, the fear of getting permanently replaced is not as strong for a guy who is hurting.

 

But what you're describing isn't a Notre dame issue as much as a bigger picture societal issue. Kids everywhere are like that these days. Not to mention that people are smarter, look at the cte development. You could argue people were tougher back then or you could argue they were dumb as $hit

Not to mention that people are smarter, look at the cte development. You could argue people were tougher back then or you could argue they were dumb as $hit

 

CTE wasn't an issue back then. Tackling was done with the shoulder, not the head.

CTE wasn't an issue back then. Tackling was done with the shoulder, not the head.

 

Players from that era have been diagnosed with CTE.

 

"Most of the participants with CTE played football during the 1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s, McKee said, with the rest having played in the 2000s and 2010s"

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/25/health/cte-nfl-players-brains-study/index.html

Edited December 1, 20177 yr by corysold

CTE wasn't an issue back then. Tackling was done with the shoulder, not the head.

 

Actually it was an enormous issue back then it's just that No one knew what it was. The majority of the players being diagnosed with it today are from that era.

I've learned recently that ND players of the 1940's and Early 1950's had an Edge to them because Frank Leahy had that edge to him. From being unafraid to start spring practice when he wanted too, or directing his team at practice when he wanted to, to being hard on Coach Brennan who was the coach after him. Leahy seems like that guy who got an edge and was that competitor.

 

Current comparisons might be Bill Belichick, Nick Saban, Urban Meyer.

 

Leahy seemed to be willing to do whatever it took to win. It seems to be hard to on one hand maintain that Disney wholesomeness and that Edgy win at all cost mentality.

 

Belichick hasn't. At times dismissive with the media, all sorts of competitive edge scandals involving video and deflated footballs. Yet winning makes New England not quick to want a coach who is different.

 

Meyer recently wanted to find out who was the Cameraman who bumped into JT Barrett, in a very edgy sort of way.

 

Saban has had several press conferences that made Youtube for his interactions with the media. He signs the maximium number of recruits virtually every year and yet 100 become 85 before anyone gets in trouble every year..

 

How does ND return to that edgy tough team it was before there was a 24 hr. news cycle?

 

Here's a video about Leahy getting his team the shade during a very hot day in texas.

 

 

This video was just to much fun not to share as well.

 

 

Thanks for sharing those. I like the fact that Leahy had a sense of humor. He was animated, that connects with the players. Like Lou. I don't think we have had a coach since then who wasn't an arrogant ***. Seems like getting the ND job that has been held by so many great coaches gives unproven mediocre coaches the idea that they are already great. The greatest ND coaches of all time aren't remember because they were Saban before they got there, they are remembered because they became great at ND.

 

Seems like ND is the brass ring but once these guys get it they don't want to do the work anymore.

This took an unexpected turn. I was talking about edge in terms of being competitive. In the Book I'm reading "Many Autumn's AGO"

 

Leahy was probably watching(and coaching) summer practices, starting Spring Ball before he was supposed to, maybe even sending people to scout other teams .

 

Also there were many offers for him to Coach in the developing Professional League at that time. There were many who thought Leahy would be a pro coach after returning from World War II but he got an extension from ND.

 

From Coaching Clevland which I assume became the Browns to possibly taking over for George Halas who ran the Bears and also ran the T formation.

 

 

Interesting stuff. But his sending people to opposition practices and bending other rules got me thinking of Belichick and spy gate.

 

Leahy earned the nickname "The Master" from some for his ways to win and find competitive advantages or edges.

This took an unexpected turn. I was talking about edge in terms of being competitive. In the Book I'm reading "Many Autumn's AGO"

 

Leahy was probably watching(and coaching) summer practices, starting Spring Ball before he was supposed to, maybe even sending people to scout other teams .

 

Also there were many offers for him to Coach in the developing Professional League at that time. There were many who thought Leahy would be a pro coach after returning from World War II but he got an extension from ND.

 

From Coaching Clevland which I assume became the Browns to possibly taking over for George Halas who ran the Bears and also ran the T formation.

 

 

Interesting stuff. But his sending people to opposition practices and bending other rules got me thinking of Belichick and spy gate.

 

Leahy earned the nickname "The Master" from some for his ways to win and find competitive advantages or edges.

 

He learned from the master too, Rockne. There was a time that ND was totally innovative in its approach to football. They are hugely responsible for why we are who we are.

 

The culture at ND has changed. No matter the coach, if the PTB shackle you because something wrackles their nose, you're screwed. ND made the decision that no coach is going to be the most powerful person in the university IMO. But I feel history tells a different story when you look at other giants who walked the grounds during the times of great coaches, men like Father Hesburg and Moose Krause especially. To me it seems like there are too many betas walking around afraid to be exceptional like the aforementioned were in addition to having other like minded innovators and powerful men sharing the same small space in relative harmony. I really believe this was a factor in denying Saban and Meyer in past searches.

Edited December 1, 20177 yr by jessemoore97

Will you explain what you mean by this?

 

The culture, the mission, the makeup of the people there are entirely different.

 

What was once a tough, blue collar, catholic Midwestern university with a dominant football program, became an elitist, soft, white collar, ivy league west, whose administration and faculty are embarrassed by the football program when they talk to their fellow academia at cocktail parties.

He learned from the master too, Rockne. There was a time that ND was totally innovative in its approach to football. They are hugely responsible for why we are who we are.

 

The culture at ND has changed. No matter the coach, if the PTB shackle you because something wrackles their nose, you're screwed. ND made the decision that no coach is going to be the most powerful person in the university IMO. But I feel history tells a different story when you look at other giants who walked the grounds during the times of great coaches, men like Father Hesburg and Moose Krause especially. To me it seems like there are too many betas walking around afraid to be exceptional like the aforementioned were in addition to having other like minded innovators and powerful men sharing the same small space in relative harmony. I really believe this was a factor in denying Saban and Meyer in past searches.

 

Speaking of culture, we used to have players who said that their dream was to sack a qb so hard that he ripped his head off. Now we have players who meekly stand by and allow their qb to get pulverized 5 yards out of bounds by their arch rival and do absolutely nothing about it.

 

We've gone from coaches that used to pull players off of the field by their face mask to coaches who are told not to yell because it looks bad and practices yoga.

Edited December 1, 20177 yr by Handsome Jack

We also had a Physical Education degree back then as well. But we can't have degrees that might appeal to athletes, can we? I guess that's a joke degree, which should make PE teachers and high school football coaches feel good.

We also had a Physical Education degree back then as well. But we can't have degrees that might appeal to athletes, can we? I guess that's a joke degree, which should make PE teachers and high school football coaches feel good.

 

A ton of football players take much easier majors than everyone else - like Sociology and Film, Television, and Theater. Not to mention, each player has his hand held by various academic advisors and student tutors from the time he steps on campus until the time he leaves. Not knocking the process - obviously not every football player will have the background or mindset to succeed at ND - but the argument that school is too hard is so played out. Any football player who fails academically has only himself to blame - there is so much help out there for each one. There are plenty of easier paths for players to choose from, but a good portion actually want to take advantage of getting a great education - why fault them for that?

 

The thing I have a major issue with is forcing football players to graduate in 3.5 years. Many football players are behind the academic 8 ball from the start, so why force them to take on more in an effort to graduate early? Few "regular" ND students could take on that work load, so why do that to someone who already puts in a ton of hours for football. ND should let football players take 12 credit hours in the fall and take more credit hours over the summer to make up for it.

 

Notre Dame is a Top 20 university according to U.S. News. I'll never understand why people bash the University for aspiring to be in the same category as an Ivy League school. People act like the values are completely different now than what they were half a century ago, but that's just not true. Wanting to be considered an elite academic institution does not mean that the University has lost all of its Catholic values.

Players from that era have been diagnosed with CTE.

 

"Most of the participants with CTE played football during the 1950s, '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s, McKee said, with the rest having played in the 2000s and 2010s"

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/25/health/cte-nfl-players-brains-study/index.html

 

My Dad grauated in 1949, before face masks. It was the advent of the face mask that started the trend of people using the helmet as a weapon.

We've gone from coaches that used to pull players off of the field by their face mask to coaches who are told not to yell because it looks bad and practices yoga.

 

Societal culture has changed and football reflects that.

In the social media age no university wants to be associated with a video of a coach grabbbing a player by the face mask, dragging him to the bench, and yelling at him. Factor in potential racial differences between coach and player and watch that video go viral.

Video has contributed a lot to the change in coaching behavior across the board I think.

I wonder how cell phones are managed during team meetings during the week. I suspect there is a bit more yelling during team/position group meetings during the week but we just don't see it.

Having said that, Holtz sure had that fire and it was fun to watch. Society will just not return to those days.