Question for those more technique-savvy than I. I don’t hear much about zone blocking by the o-line this year. My understanding is that zone blocking is reactionary; a lineman is responsible for an area he occupies or is going to and reacts to anyone entering his area. Seems to me that you have to have a very cohesive unit to use that scheme effectively. If not, there are gaps in the zone that defenders can exploit. O-line cohesion is difficult to sustain in college football with the frequent changes in personnel. Seems ND may have changed its blocking scheme to use the advantage of size and strength that it has. But I don’t know. Any insights from those of you that really know/played the game?

Question for those more technique-savvy than I. I don’t hear much about zone blocking by the o-line this year. My understanding is that zone blocking is reactionary; a lineman is responsible for an area he occupies or is going to and reacts to anyone entering his area. Seems to me that you have to have a very cohesive unit to use that scheme effectively. If not, there are gaps in the zone that defenders can exploit. O-line cohesion is difficult to sustain in college football with the frequent changes in personnel. Seems ND may have changed its blocking scheme to use the advantage of size and strength that it has. But I don’t know. Any insights from those of you that really know/played the game?

 

It's not reactionary. When it comes to outside zone, linemen are supposed to imagine a railroad track on their assignment and follow it regardless of who is in or comes in their assignment. Lanes developed with the flow of defenders moving laterally and the linemen, tight ends engaging them as they pass through. The backs no where the blockers are going. I don't know much about inside zone.

Zone is a playside step and combo blocks inside or outside or stretch.

 

Its still as physical as man.

 

Here's inside zone

 

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inside zone and outside zone and then you have pin an pull which looks more like power.. Inside zone is much improved this year.. When you see 2 lineman double team and then one makes it to the 2nd level you can safely assume it's an inside zone..

 

just a quick tip for the naked eye..

 

We've always been able to run pin and pull well, but the guys have struggled with the inside zone for the last 5 years.

 

I find it hard to believe they finally got it from Hiestand and that Long is to be attributed to the recent success.

inside zone and outside zone and then you have pin an pull which looks more like power.. Inside zone is much improved this year.. When you see 2 lineman double team and then one makes it to the 2nd level you can safely assume it's an inside zone..

 

just a quick tip for the naked eye..

 

We've always been able to run pin and pull well, but the guys have struggled with the inside zone for the last 5 years.

 

I find it hard to believe they finally got it from Hiestand and that Long is to be attributed to the recent success.

 

Biggest factor inside zone is Mustipher's improvement. They can now run center Gaurd Combo's effectively.

 

I will always be a players not plays guy, but Mustipher allows the inside cutback you see alot. because he allows Nelson to get to the next level with a movement block.

Biggest factor inside zone is Mustipher's improvement. They can now run center Gaurd Combo's effectively.

 

I will always be a players not plays guy, but Mustipher allows the inside cutback you see alot. because he allows Nelson to get to the next level with a movement block.

 

I remember watching these guys bending at the hips after they disengaged the DL and completely whiff on the backer.. It was almost as if they didn't know who to hit or how to get in position to hit them. It was pathetic.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we replace ol Hiestand, because there is absolutely no way this turnaround can be attributed to him.

 

I don't really know the main/obvious difference between a typical power play versus a pin and pull, but it looks like our pin in pull looks more like a down block versus a "reach" block usually seen with a pull zone play.

I remember watching these guys bending at the hips after they disengaged the DL and completely whiff on the backer.. It was almost as if they didn't know who to hit or how to get in position to hit them. It was pathetic.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we replace ol Hiestand, because there is absolutely no way this turnaround can be attributed to him.

 

I don't really know the main/obvious difference between a typical power play versus a pin and pull, but it looks like our pin in pull looks more like a down block versus a "reach" block usually seen with a pull zone play.

 

 

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I stand corrected. these are probably power runs with the lead coming in the backfield. Corysold corrected me below.

Edited October 31, 20177 yr by FaithInIrishForever

I could be wrong, but I don't think the OL has pulled this much since '12.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the OL has pulled this much since '12.

 

I don't remember this much pulling since '11 for sure. I don't really remember that much pulling runs in '12.

 

What's crazy and borderline mind blowing is the effectiveness of our inside/outside/pin - pull/ and power..

 

It's really tough to get good at zone blocking let alone being really effective at all of them. Their versatility makes it nearly impossible to scheme against.

 

NC State's coach said he had a couple calls in where they were trying to fit with their safety in the hole.. I don't know a lot about football but when you're requiring your safety to fit runs in the hole, you're in bad shape schematically.

I don't remember this much pulling since '11 for sure. I don't really remember that much pulling runs in '12.

 

What's crazy and borderline mind blowing is the effectiveness of our inside/outside/pin - pull/ and power..

 

It's really tough to get good at zone blocking let alone being really effective at all of them. Their versatility makes it nearly impossible to scheme against.

 

NC State's coach said he had a couple calls in where they were trying to fit with their safety in the hole.. I don't know a lot about football but when you're requiring your safety to fit runs in the hole, you're in bad shape schematically.

 

I remember Golic pulling on a lot of runs in '12. This OL is allowed to fire out at the snap of the ball, which is huge for the running game and inspires confidence in them to drive defenders downfield, and good golly we have. I hated the past few seasons or most of BK tenure in which our run blocking and pass blocking looked identical with our lineman playing on their heels instead of drive blocking defenders out of plays. It's a world of difference. Honestly I never truly believed it was the fault of Hiestad not teaching them how to block, it was more the soft offensive schemes we ran that didn't make a dominating OL a priority. We placed more emphasis on pass protect than run blocks.

I'm not sure how the Oline makes blocking calls. But, when I played in college we could make our own calls based on how the D was lined up, how they were shading, blitzing etc... If I was dominating my guy, I'd call just man and let the center go get the linebacker right away or vise versa. If it was 3rd and short you call power and just drive the DTs back. Other team has a good DT, call combo block or based on play also. The inside and outside zone depends on the play call and how you want to get to second level. My guess is these guys are mentally getting it and acting as a unit, and seem physically much better then last year.

I always assume pin and pull involves multiple OL pulling while power involved a lead blocker, like an H-back (the TE's in ND's scheme) or FB. Similar looking, just different in who is leading the RB into the hole. Maybe different teams run them different ways, not sure.

 

Adams also seems like a better zone runner. One step, hit the hole and explode through. Dexter/Deon seems like a better power guys, jump cut in the hole, get small and squirt through to the second level.

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To me these are both Guard pull, "pin and pull" runs. There is a version they run called "tackle pull" that as you might expect hits the wide side wider

 

I think this might be a "power run". You get down blocks away from the playside to create a wall, one OL pulling to lead and kick out the outside defender and a second lead blocker out the backfield leading the RB.

 

I always thought pin and pull is similar, but instead of a lead blocker out of the backfield, you get a second OL pulling to create the same effect. Down blocks, a kickout from an OL and a second OL leading into the hole.

 

In the end they are pretty similar, just a difference of where the lead blocker comes from. Again though, different teams might call similar plays different things and I could be way off.

Edited October 31, 20177 yr by corysold

I think this might be a "power run". You get down blocks away from the playside to create a wall, one OL pulling to lead and kick out the outside defender and a second lead blocker out the backfield leading the RB.

 

I always thought pin and pull is similar, but instead of a lead blocker out of the backfield, you get a second OL pulling to create the same effect. Down blocks, a kickout from an OL and a second OL leading into the hole.

 

In the end they are pretty similar, just a difference of where the lead blocker comes from. Again though, different teams might call similar plays different things and I could be way off.

 

I think, on further examination, you are correct. My mistake came in not remembering the source quote correctly

 

Here's the quote from the presser:

 

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So he differentiates pin and pull from Guard pull and Tackle pull.

 

So its likely that he subs the words Guard pull for power, and tackle pull for an outside version.

 

As you said the two concepts wind up with a similar end result a bunch of blockers paving the point of attack.

 

I should have looked at plays and diagrams more than focusing on his words as he doesn't call anything the same as many football people do.

 

Thanks

I think, on further examination, you are correct. My mistake came in not remembering the source quote correctly

 

So he differentiates pin and pull from Guard pull and Tackle pull.

 

So its likely that he subs the words Guard pull for power, and tackle pull for an outside version.

 

As you said the two concepts wind up with a similar end result a bunch of blockers paving the point of attack.

 

I should have looked at plays and diagrams more than focusing on his words as he doesn't call anything the same as many football people do.

 

Thanks

 

Yeah, a lot of it could just be a vernacular issue. I've just always used "power" as having a lead block from the backfield. But there are a ton of different ways to get there and all have different names. He uses "pin and pull", "guard pull", "tackle pull" and "power". So there is some other variation he is using for guard pull and tackle pull, but I'd guess they fall under the "power concept" in some regard. But without seeing the play sheets, who knows.

Question for those more technique-savvy than I. I don’t hear much about zone blocking by the o-line this year. My understanding is that zone blocking is reactionary; a lineman is responsible for an area he occupies or is going to and reacts to anyone entering his area. Seems to me that you have to have a very cohesive unit to use that scheme effectively. If not, there are gaps in the zone that defenders can exploit. O-line cohesion is difficult to sustain in college football with the frequent changes in personnel. Seems ND may have changed its blocking scheme to use the advantage of size and strength that it has. But I don’t know. Any insights from those of you that really know/played the game?

 

Cohesion is important, but so is winning at the point of attack and dealing with a safety in the box. One of the reasons Georgia stopped us is that their linemen got penetration by overpowereing our linemen, which made it easier for their excellent linebackers to clean up. Sometimes they overpowered us man up, sometimes by stunting. You can run all kinds of plays with different linemen actions, but if you're getting overpowered, it doesn't matter. And slow developing plays where we ask guards to combo block and then block the weakside linebacker like Georgia's will not work. They already bring a safety up into the box on the strong side who is deep enough to cover the read option if Wimbush keeps. So, when Wimbush hands off, the safety and the weak side linebacker pinch the gap.

 

It would be cool to have a playoff matchup to see what we do different. Could we now physically match them at the point of attack? Would we go to an I power scheme with a TE as the fullback and go right at them with faster developing runs? Instead of running the read option all the time, would we simply have Adams as a lead blocker and run sweeps with Wimbush. Maybe we'll see.

 

Check out this play and imagine if Adams took off at the snap and blocked the safety, with Wimbush running behind him and Claypool in the slot blocking the guy in front of him. I could show other plays where we got overpowered, but on this play we did a decent job-except Bars never being able to block their fast linebacker- and still got stuffed.

 

 

To give you a sense of how powerful Georgia's tackles are, check this out. The penetration Bars has trouble handling is the kind of things that destroys pulling plays. When a DT can get that much penetration there is no "pin", and the pulling lineman gets roadblocked and the play dies. This happens to be a pass play, but they did it in run plays as well. This was all I could find to show how powerful their DT's are.

 

Edited October 31, 20177 yr by Frankus

Yeah, a lot of it could just be a vernacular issue. I've just always used "power" as having a lead block from the backfield. But there are a ton of different ways to get there and all have different names. He uses "pin and pull", "guard pull", "tackle pull" and "power". So there is some other variation he is using for guard pull and tackle pull, but I'd guess they fall under the "power concept" in some regard. But without seeing the play sheets, who knows.

 

In my mind, I'm just going to call it the "Pull Series" of plays. I think that's what they have in common.

 

I think as you suggest we'll keep pin and pull for more of a spread concept. Spread defined as the absence of multiple attached tight ends or a 2 back set. Pin the pursuit behind the play. pull the lead thru the hole.

 

Anything with a lead or multiple tight ends I'll call power though I know its not right because Joe Moore ran zone for Lou Holtz with 2 backs.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aIsrCokUthc/Vhao3yGGQnI/AAAAAAAACiU/d8AIlvZXo88/s1600/Slide2.JPG

 

so Normally its a center and a tackle, spread set 1 TE(Y)

 

Guard pull is the Guard replacing the Center

 

Not 100 percent on tackle pull yet.