Doug Gottlieb Article Pertaining to paying Athletes

[piratey]

http://www.cbssports.com/general/writer/doug-gottlieb/23563181/on-manziel-time-magazine-and-entitlement-among-college-players

 

Fantastic read.

[BlackIrish42]

From a guy who makes his living in the continued exploitation of college athletes. Pardon me for my cynicism...

 

I went to D2 school and playing football was a FULL-TIME JOB at that level. WTF do you think it is at D1? Much less high D1!

 

They are recruited to win games and make money for everyone except themselves.

Edited September 10, 2013 by BlackIrish42

[stdntDrvr]

From a guy who makes his living in the continued exploitation of college athletes. Pardon me for my cynicism...

 

I went to D2school and playing football was a FULL-TIME JOB at that level. WTF do you think it is at D1? Much less high D1!

 

They are recruited to win games and make money for everyone except themselves.

 

and they get a full ride to school. D1 atheletes sign a LOI knowing that they get a free education, free room and board, etc...I would take that deal in a second. Sure, the school makes money off them...but in the real world, isn't that the case everywhere? The only difference is their payment is in education/housing/food/etc.

[Franco]

I like his point about the cost of admission to actually get into an elite university such as Notre Dame, UCLA, Stanford, or Cal

 

So many students would kill for a chance to go to Berkeley or Stanford

 

Heck, even though Harvard doesn't give scholarships, I believe they still lower admission requirements for their athletes

[NDhoosier]

From a guy who makes his living in the continued exploitation of college athletes. Pardon me for my cynicism...

 

I went to D2 school and playing football was a FULL-TIME JOB at that level. WTF do you think it is at D1? Much less high D1!

 

They are recruited to win games and make money for everyone except themselves.

 

its not feasible, get over it. especially at a D2 school, they cannot afford to pay players. Seriously, there is so much wrong with paying STUDENT ATHLETES, you get a free ride for a college education, be grateful for what you get. Some of us athletes only get half scholarships because we dont play football or basketball.

[piratey]

From a guy who makes his living in the continued exploitation of college athletes. Pardon me for my cynicism...

 

I went to D2 school and playing football was a FULL-TIME JOB at that level. WTF do you think it is at D1? Much less high D1!

 

They are recruited to win games and make money for everyone except themselves.

 

It doesn't seem like you read the article? Gottlieb was a legit D1 basketball player, was a 9apg point guard on a elite eight Okie State team, his take on the matter carries weight.

 

Read the article.

[NDfan1224]

D1 athletes that receive full scholarships usually still have to pay money to attend that college. The NCAA has plenty of limitations for those receiving scholarships. So those on full scholarship still may end up paying thousands of dollars to attend school. Once accepting a sports scholarship players usually cannot except any other types of scholarships because it would set teams over the NCAA scholarship limit. Also be reminded that not all athletes get full scholarships, in fact most do not. When you talk about playing D1 sports it is a constant grind. Athletes have workouts (at ridiculous hours), practice, class, team meetings, study hall, all on a daily basis. Not to mention just about all colleges send there athletes out and perform volunteer work, make appearances at school functions (they get everything they can out of these students). Athletes might be on scholarship but there are NCAA rules stating athletes cannot receive any benefits other than what you receive from the athletic department. Athletes are also required to do everything a normal student is, so if a student needs to have one 3 month internship to graduate from that program the student athlete needs that internship as well. Athletes do not receive all that much people argue free tutors are available to them most college offer free tutoring to all students anyways. Another problem is most student athletes aren't rich when holidays and breaks come around how do the athletes get home? The school doesn't pay their plane tickets to see their family. Student athletes cant work because of the highly demanding schedule they have to follow because they accepted a scholarship which basically entitles you to show up. With as much money athletics brings to schools would it really hurt to throw the kids just a little more money.

[piratey]

D1 athletes that receive full scholarships usually still have to pay money to attend that college. The NCAA has plenty of limitations for those receiving scholarships. So those on full scholarship still may end up paying thousands of dollars to attend school. Once accepting a sports scholarship players usually cannot except any other types of scholarships because it would set teams over the NCAA scholarship limit. Also be reminded that not all athletes get full scholarships, in fact most do not. When you talk about playing D1 sports it is a constant grind. Athletes have workouts (at ridiculous hours), practice, class, team meetings, study hall, all on a daily basis. Not to mention just about all colleges send there athletes out and perform volunteer work, make appearances at school functions (they get everything they can out of these students). Athletes might be on scholarship but there are NCAA rules stating athletes cannot receive any benefits other than what you receive from the athletic department. Athletes are also required to do everything a normal student is, so if a student needs to have one 3 month internship to graduate from that program the student athlete needs that internship as well. Athletes do not receive all that much people argue free tutors are available to them most college offer free tutoring to all students anyways. Another problem is most student athletes aren't rich when holidays and breaks come around how do the athletes get home? The school doesn't pay their plane tickets to see their family. Student athletes cant work because of the highly demanding schedule they have to follow because they accepted a scholarship which basically entitles you to show up. With as much money athletics brings to schools would it really hurt to throw the kids just a little more money.

 

...Once again. Actually read the article?

 

Fine, since people seem incapable of clicking a link and reading. Let me quote:

 

How many scholarships are given to athletes who never would have received the chance to go to college, much less to have free everything while there? While there are some tangibles within the business of college sports we can put a dollar value on, there is no calculation on simply getting into college. I invite writers and fans to read, ask around and research how difficult admissions standards are for mid- to high-level universities, private schools and also high-level public schools, especially when those students come from out of state.

 

Once you're there, your scholarship is a contract that binds you to your school. One side of the deal is this: we pick up everything. All you have to do is show up, keep your grades at a marginal level, and you can be part of the most exclusive club on campus. You will be trained in both your sport and your post-athletics career path. If you begin grad school while you are eligible, guess who picks up the tab? Not you. Many scholarship football players are on campus for five years, during which time they receive free tutoring, the best counseling, priority enrollment into certain classes, new textbooks, the best dorms and meals, in addition to the training, coaching, and essentially work experience you can gain in your sport. Additionally, the NCAA essentially allows student-athletes who leave to return and get their degree on a full grant-in-aid at any time. Does this sound like a good deal so far?

 

Terms are thrown around like 'exploitation' and 'indentured servitude,' neither of which reflect the reality of what takes place, which is the marketing of a young men's athletic skills in exchange for training, promotion, competition and evaluation in their chosen sport, in addition to the best education the athlete chooses to receive from a university. You want exploitation? Try high-achieving students who earned their way into school, perform at high levels academically, graduate and achieve in the workforce, then are asked to join the alumni association and donate money in addition to whatever student loans they're attempting to repay. In this way, schools exploit all their students. If anything, athletes get off easy, as athletes can exploit (the action of benefitting from resources) schools, more often than vice versa.

[Rockets Revenge]

D1 athletes that receive full scholarships usually still have to pay money to attend that college. The NCAA has plenty of limitations for those receiving scholarships. So those on full scholarship still may end up paying thousands of dollars to attend school.

 

IN MBB & FB all scholarships are FULL scholarships. The athletes do not have to pay money to attend that college. For most schools those are the only revenue generating sports. Those are the athletes people are complaining are being exploited. The revenue generated from those sports has to fund all the other non-revenue generating sports in the athletic department...including all the additional women's sports required by Title IX.

[IrishPolock]

When you talk about playing D1 sports it is a constant grind. Athletes have workouts (at ridiculous hours), practice, class, team meetings, study hall, all on a daily basis. Not to mention just about all colleges send there athletes out and perform volunteer work, make appearances at school functions (they get everything they can out of

 

And? As a full time student at NCSU, working full time, participating in Beta Alpha Psi, I can assure you... my savings account wasn't growing after I was eating cheap food and paying rent.

 

Athletes do not receive all that much people argue free tutors are available to them most college offer free tutoring to all students anyways.

 

I know NCSU had a great tutoring program for all of their athletes... much better than what I had access to.

 

Another problem is most student athletes aren't rich when holidays and breaks come around how do the athletes get home? The school doesn't pay their plane tickets to see their family.

 

Stay close to home and don't move out of state... most students aren't rich period.

 

 

Student athletes cant work because of the highly demanding schedule they have to follow because they accepted a scholarship which basically entitles you to show up. With as much money athletics brings to schools would it really hurt to throw the kids just a little more money.

 

Then you have to throw all of the kids "a little more money"... but sure they can work... and pay their tuition just like I did while working...

[1qa]

The schollie system can and should be improved... but overall, it is a great deal as most have no future in professional sports.

 

IMO, the system pays lip service to the notion of the student-athlete... that's the problem. They say it's about "educational opportunity" when it is really about money.

 

So, the system takes advantage of many on two levels... one, truly talented and exceptional players are exploited for money (and it is different than the real world because if you are truly talented and exceptional, you'll leave your company for more, or strike it on your own), and two, many of those talented and exceptional athletes are barely students.

 

The notion that colleges should be true to "amateurism" is a lie. Pro-athletes compete in the Olympics! Players should be able to take advantage of their celebrity as a schollie athlete IF they also are students in good standing... which leads me to how schollies are administered.

 

Schools are not accountable if the schollie players don't graduate. The penalties are inconsequential.

 

The current constraint is that the student has 5 years to play 4. Why not also add,

 

1. The student is guaranteed 4 continuous years of scholarship, but if they flunk out or miss a year, the school doesn't get to reward that "unused" year to someone else.

 

2. How about "medical" conditions should be cleared by a medical staffer randomly picked and accountable to the NCAA, instead of the school

 

3. How about an academic compliance office that is run by the NCAA instead of the school.. the school just has to pay for the compliance officer. The officers could be regional, and cover more than one school.

 

4. If the student leaves and doesn't get a degree within five years (anywhere), any school the student attended would lose a 4-year schollie, at the beginning of a 5 year cycle.

 

Schools need to be accountable for helping its kids graduate and promoting scholarship.

 

Lastly, I think the NFL should be paying a heck of a lot to the colleges for developing and conditioning their draft stock... how about "Hey NFL... endow 128, 4-year scholarships... any D1 school with a GSR over X... gets a scholarship... then the schools with the highest GSR over a 5 year period get the remaining. Win-Win?

[IrishPolock]

and it is different than the real world because if you are truly talented and exceptional, you'll leave your company for more

 

NFL

 

The notion that colleges should be true to "amateurism" is a lie. Pro-athletes compete in the Olympics! Players should be able to take advantage of their celebrity as a schollie athlete IF they also are students in good standing...

 

What happens when one autograph dealer offers to pay more as long as a kid goes to Screw U

 

 

1. The student is guaranteed 4 continuous years of scholarship, but if they flunk out or miss a year, the school doesn't get to reward that "unused" year to someone else.

 

Miss a year how? I do like this idea.

 

2. How about "medical" conditions should be cleared by a medical staffer randomly picked and accountable to the NCAA, instead of the school

 

Agreed

 

3. How about an academic compliance office that is run by the NCAA instead of the school.. the school just has to pay for the compliance officer. The officers could be regional, and cover more than one school.

 

Agreed

 

 

4. If the student leaves and doesn't get a degree within five years (anywhere), any school the student attended would lose a 4-year schollie, at the beginning of a 5 year cycle.

 

 

Makes sense... but money can change the best people... a kid that got drafted could absolutely plan to go back and finish their degree, but should the school really get punished if that individual decides not to once they are out of the schools control?

[Rockets Revenge]

So, the system takes advantage of many on two levels... one, truly talented and exceptional players are exploited for money (and it is different than the real world because if you are truly talented and exceptional, you'll leave your company for more, or strike it on your own),

 

They can leave early for the NFL or NBA. The NFL even offers a FREE evaluation of their projected draft position if they are thinking of coming out early!!

 

Do you think a truly talented and exceptional medical school major can leave after 3 years and get a job as a Dr at a hospital? Or start a practice of their own? How about an engineer? Lawyer?

 

The notion that colleges should be true to "amateurism" is a lie. Pro-athletes compete in the Olympics!

 

We are talking about college athletics here, not the Olympics. Apples to Oranges. 2 different governing bodies. The NCAA is not the IOC. They each set their own bylaws. I'm sure all olympic athletes would like to have free training, use of facilities, room and board, etc.

 

Players should be able to take advantage of their celebrity as a schollie athlete

 

You think maybe this new found celebrity came from the free marketing and television exposure they received from their College's television contracts? If not, then why didn't they just sell their own likeness and memorabilia in HS?

 

Schools are not accountable if the schollie players don't graduate. The penalties are inconsequential.

 

Shouldn't the student-athlete be equally accountable? Who is accountable when a student (non-athlete) doesn't graduate?

 

1. The student is guaranteed 4 continuous years of scholarship, but if they flunk out or miss a year, the school doesn't get to reward that "unused" year to someone else.

 

This is a 2-way street. Is the student-athlete going to guarantee to stay at the school for 4 continuous years? And do all required coursework as assigned? Be on time for every class? This would also eliminate players leaving early for the NFL or NBA.

 

2. How about "medical" conditions should be cleared by a medical staffer randomly picked and accountable to the NCAA, instead of the school

 

3. How about an academic compliance office that is run by the NCAA instead of the school.. the school just has to pay for the compliance officer. The officers could be regional, and cover more than one school.

 

The NCAA doesn't have the resources to manage and cover everything it is responsible for now. You want to add responsibility for medical and compliance departments at 250 D-1 universities on top of that? Those departments would be even more screwed up than the US Govt managed Unemployment, Social Security, and Obama-care programs.

 

4. If the student leaves and doesn't get a degree within five years (anywhere), any school the student attended would lose a 4-year schollie, at the beginning of a 5 year cycle.

 

What if the student-athlete has no desire to get a degree? What if they make no effort? Penalize the school? Should we also eliminate academic scholarships based on the number of student (non-athlete) dropouts?

 

Lastly, I think the NFL should be paying a heck of a lot to the colleges for developing and conditioning their draft stock... how about "Hey NFL... endow 128, 4-year scholarships... any D1 school with a GSR over X... gets a scholarship... then the schools with the highest GSR over a 5 year period get the remaining. Win-Win?

 

Why the hell would the NFL do that?? If you tried to enforce that the NFL would just drop the requirement to 3 years removed from HS prior to being drafted. Then you would have A LOT of FB players just declaring for the NFL draft right out of HS. The NBA tried this experiment and it didn't work. MANY players ruined their chances to get a free college education by declaring for the NBA draft when they didn't have the talent &/or skills.

 

Following your same logic, should colleges pay high schools for developing and conditioning their recruiting stock? What about for developing their academic stock? I applied for and received several research grants for my university totalling over $1M and worked countless hours as an intern and grad assistant free of charge. Should my high scool have received a portion of that money for developing and conditioning my academic prowess??

 

Here is a novel idea...how about let the governing body be a governing body! Give the NCAA the power they need to govern the bylaws voted on and agreed to by the universities. Give them full subpoena power and make the penalties stiffer. Don't worry about disrupting the money trail enforce the rules equally and forcefully. If a university doesn't want to lose out on the money trail they will follow the rules. There was some of this after the SMU death penalty. Then the NCAA decided they couldn't do that again because it impacted SMU's athletic revenue too much. Once the universities realized the NCAA was nothing more than Barney Fife recklesness and disregard for the rules ensued again.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Rocket's Revenge

[1qa]

Wow... guess i touched a nerve.

 

I'm Canadian... here's how I see it.

 

1. Hockey player kids.. the really good ones, basically are in a semi-pro league and HS is managed while constantly being on the road... and I believe they are also given money/scholarship to go to college if it doesn't pan out.

 

Hockey players are also drafted at age 17 & 18... from all over the world. The really good ones play right away... the others go to a farm team (like Baseball), and toil and get paid.

 

So, yeah... I do think football can and should do something similar to hockey and baseball.

 

2. NCAA is not IOC... got it. The point is we are pretending the NCAA is not about money when it really is... so let's be honest. The NCAA has different bylaws, and I'm saying they should change them.

 

3. Student-athlete Accoutability. Yes, if the player flunks out, they lose a year of schollie, and they have one less year to play on the field. Accountability in terms of paying.. not practically enforceable... most might as well just be kicked out of school. I hold the school to the higher standard, and that higher standard is re-enforces a message that academics are important to the HS player. You can't reasonably expect Joe Biceps with HS GPA of 1.8 and 700 SAT to get through any reasonable college course without alot of help initially. If he doesn't live up to the minimum standard, he's gone. If the school keeps recruiting athletes that can't have a reasonable expectation to graduate, then you are mocking the notion of the student-athlete.

 

4. Celebrity. Did you know who Jaylon Smith was before he played at ND? He was recruited by many colleges. It's the modern age, the best talents are found at a young age. Did you know who Michael Phelps was before he won a ton of medals in the Olympics... he was still able to cash out on his celebrity even though the USOC paid for his training. The point is... the college and NCAA don't necessarily make people a celebrity. Sometimes, the athlete makes the school well known too... so I think both sides should be able to profit.

 

5. NCAA Regulatory Capability. The NCAA doesn't have the resources because it chooses not to have the resources. The notion is that if you want to play, you have to pay. The schools participating in the NCAA would have to pay for their compliance service... just like you and I pay to have a police and fire department. If you don't like the notion of member schools paying for communal services, then we might as well just do away with the NCAA (not necessarily a bad idea), and leave everything up to individual schools and conferences. But the NCAA is supposed to be there to uphold a communal standard / value. Right now, we're asking the football factories to police themselves... that's a joke. It would be like asking a Fertilizer company to do its own safety inspections... all fine and good until boom, it takes out a town and people die - oop, that did happen. Now football isn't a fertilizer company, but you should be looking out for the welfare of the players (concussions) and for the integrity of academics... otherwise you're just subsidizing the NFL's farm system (see point 1).

 

6. NFL Sponsored Scholarships. The NFL might consider it because it is good PR and it is cheaper than setting up a farm system for themselves. And, so they can lower their draft age requirements... so what. Maurice Clarett looked pretty good on Sundays right? The NFL needs the volume of teams and the competition to help sort out the players... unlike other sports, age and maturity do matter. Bodies are still developing, game instincts need conditioning.

 

As for the suggestion that colleges subsidize HS for players.... no. But that's my point, colleges are for finding students, not good football players.

 

7. NCAA as a governing body. Yes, i agree it should be a governing body with enforcement authority. If you can't enforce your rules, you aren't governing... you're just blowing hot air. I'm proposing ideas and practices the NCAA could adopt to uphold the virtue and value of being a student-athlete, to uphold the value of getting an education, instead of being a shill for the money-interests of the college and being an unsubsidized factory for the NFL.

[Donjuan]

Getting back to Doug Gottlieb.. it's sad to me that he never fully owned up to all of what happened. I've made mistakes and I've been dishonest; but if we're writing an article about accountability then it'd make sense to fully admit the wrongdoing, apologize to those affected, and ask for forgiveness. Revealing to everyone past mistakes and asking forgiveness is very honorable IMO.. as I ashamedly majored in high school parental-deception that I still feel guilty about, but leaving out how you also stole your fellow Dillonites' textbooks a week before exams and returned them to the library for money, is a 'little' disingenuous; especially having recently read how you never even apologized to the ones left scrambling for exams with no textbooks to study from. ND now has a 'must show ID' policy for returning books for cash and it's mainly due to Doug and his ring of fraud. Like I stated above, I'm no saint, and I stole things when I was younger, too. But reading this and seeing how certain information was left out, just reminded me of my days where honesty took a backseat to self-preservation.