I see this question asked quite a bit in regards to Petersen, Whittingham, Patterson, and Kelly -- guys leading smaller programs to excellent seasons lately.

 

I think it's silly to ask this question, both in regards to scheduling and recruiting, because they're at much smaller programs that simply don't have the name recognition or facilities that the elite schools have.

 

Sure, they aren't beating USC, Texas, LSU or Florida week in and week out, but they're playing teams in the WAC, MWC, and Big East teams with talent that is comparable to theirs. So they're winning with similar personnel, and because they're all undefeated, it's quite easy to see that just maybe, they're much better coached than the teams they play week in and week out.

 

Everyone wants a "big name" for the ND program if Weis is indeed fired. Who does that include?

 

Meyer is on his way to his third national championship in five years. He's the highest paid coach in college football at an established football factory. Why would he leave?

 

Stoops? Oklahoma is a program that can boast a tradition approaching ND's. He's also one of the highest paid guys in college football, and despite his struggles in the BCS lately, his teams constantly are playing in BCS bowls, Big 12 Championship games, and his seasons are full of 10 and 11 wins.

 

What I'm trying to illustrate here is twofold -- one, that the Sabans, Meyers, and Stoops aren't going to come here. That's my first point.

 

The second, is that ND needs to stop expecting those guys to jump from well-established, high-paying programs. Instead, ND needs to use the same method Oklahoma, Florida, LSU, Miami etc. used when hiring Stoops, Meyer, Saban, and Butch Davis respectively -- taking someone who had shown coaching excellence at a lower level and handing them the reigns of a much larger program.

 

Bob Stoops was hired at Oklahoma (once again, a very tradition-proud institution) knowing only that he was a very good offensive coordinator for Steve Spurrier's mid-90's Gator teams. What major wins did he have on his resume as a head coach? None.

 

Urban Meyer was hired during an undefeated season at Utah by Florida after they fired Ron Zook mid-season. He had a handshake agreement with Florida before he won his BCS Bowl, and he was playing against the same competition Whittingham is right now. It was good enough for a major program like Florida -- why not ND?

 

Nick Saban was 34-24 at Michigan State, and got the LSU job after a 9-2 season. His teams constantly showed improvement, and that was enough for LSU.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that before the "big names" were big names, they weren't big names at all. They didn't have monumental upsets or huge victories against teams that ND is trying to catch at the pedestal of the elites of college football. What they had were solid football teams, and clear evidence that showed that these guys were great football coaches. You didn't need to ask "who have they beaten" -- there was something non-quantifiable about the way their teams performed and prepared that made them the right call for major programs.

 

Chris Petersen is 44-4 as head coach at Boise State, with a BCS bowl win.

 

Kyle Whittingham is 45-15 as head coach of Utah, with wins in every bowl he's coached in (including a Sugar Bowl victory last year against a "big boy", Alabama).

 

Gary Patterson is 80-27 as head coach of TCU, and has won every bowl he's gone to.

 

Brian Kelly is 31-6 at Cincinnati and has appeared in a BCS bowl, as well as turning around the Grand Valley State (where he won two D-II championships) and Central Michigan in his previous coaching stops.

 

All of those guys are undefeated at the moment (except Utah, which has 1 loss). All are beating teams that are at least on par with their talent. All have shown a considerable ability to lead a college football team and win, and all are well worthy of head coaching spots at the larger schools who will almost certainly come knocking on their doors. Why should ND not beat these other schools to the punch?

 

The "who have they beaten?" question needs to go away. The answer is quite simple -- they've beaten almost every team that has lined up against them each Saturday.

 

It's time to make one of those guys "our guy" -- someone who other programs will envy Notre Dame for hiring, and wish they could take away.

Edited November 11, 200915 yr by Katzenboyer

But Katz our fans bleat out Weis has no signiture win...what are theirs?

But Katz our fans bleat out Weis has no signiture win...what are theirs?

 

My response to that is:

 

1. You can only play who's on your schedule. Weis hasn't been USC, and 3 out of the 5 games have been complete blowouts.

 

2. What signature wins did Stoops, Meyer, etc. have before they went to their respective programs?

 

3. Whittingham beating Alabama and Petersen beating Oklahoma aren't signature wins?

I dont get it? Where are their "big" wins??? JK Great post.

But Katz our fans bleat out Weis has no signiture win...what are theirs?

Peterson beat Oklahoma in a BCS bowl during Adrian Peterson's last year. He also beat Oregon in huge games last year and this year.

 

Patterson has pretty much beat all comers this season with big wins over Clemson (who is playing lights out right now) and BYU with another win at UVa (granted not very impressive this year).

 

Whittingham beat Bama last year in a BCS bowl

 

Kelly has won some big games over Big East teams in the last two years, not the best conference

You make a good case Katzenboyer.

 

Although I think there are two fallacious arguments being made on these boards:

 

First:

1. Charlie Weis came from the NFL where he was successful,

2. Charlie Weis has not been successful at the college level,

3. Ergo, hiring coaches/coordinators from the NFL will result in failure for ND

 

Second:

1. Some college coaches have been successful in smaller programs,

2. Some of these college coaches have also been successful at larger programs,

3. Ergo, ND needs to hire a college coach who is successful at a smaller program

in order for it to be successful

 

I'm not saying you are using the second argument. You make many valid points.

I just think it is a much more complicated decision than picking someone from a smaller program or not picking someone just because they were successful in the NFL.

 

Someone could argue picking someone who was successful at a smaller program and ND could end up with someone like Jerry Faust who had much success as a high school football coach. On the other hand, someone like Graben could bring ND back to glory for many years to come because there are some examples of successful NFL coaches who carried that success to the college level.

 

To give an example of how complicated this can be, let's look at Ara's history:

Ara coached under Woody Hayes at Miami University for one year. The next year he was made head coach and ended his career there with a record of 39-6-1 in five years.

Northwestern, licking its chops, hires Ara for eight years where his record was 36-35-1, (not spectacular) but which was actually a good record at Northwestern and he beat ND four times while he coached there. He had no "connection" to ND, not being a graduate there nor was he Roman Catholic, (neither was Rockne who did convert to RC however) but ND hired him anyway in 1964 and his record in 11 years was 170-58-6, taking the Irish to five bowl games and two national championships. Ara's record in his first four years at ND was 33-5-2 and ND was in the top 10 all four years and top five 3 of the 4 years while winning the NC in his 3rd year. Dan Devine was on the short list in 1964 for a job at ND.

 

So Ara did very well in his first coaching position but not so well at Northwestern. If we would have not selected him because of his poor record, well, then history would not have been made.

 

I'm just saying that it's not as simple as having a good W-L record.

 

I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during the deliberations for choosing a head football coach in 1964 at ND and to have learned why they selected Ara over Devine.

What were their criteria for selection and what was it about Ara that impressed them so much?

 

Hey, if we can pick a President with no executive experience, we can pick anybody to be head coach at ND and be successful, right?

Edited November 11, 200915 yr by RockneDrive

Rock --

 

I agree, there are outliers on both sides. Pete Carroll came from the NFL (where he was a loser as a HC) and has done great things at USC. Dan Hawkins came from Boise State to Colorado, and will probably lose his job this offseason.

 

All I'm saying that in order for us to get a "big name" coach, we're not going to steal them away from established programs. We're going to need to find them and have them develop before our eyes, and it's up to the administration to pick a Meyer rather than a Hawkins.

 

But the "who has he beaten" argument is old, because the major guys at huge programs now didn't have any great victories at their programs, but had proven that they were going to be successful as coaches with the big boys.

all these guys " sound fine"--- but there are ZERO guarantees in the lot of them------the idea that if we hire brian kelly-- or petersen or wittigham--- means the program is back on its feet racing, toward a national title is just HOPE TALIKNG---- its alright to be optimistic over some of these coaches-- but facts are ND is a totally different animal then cicny or boise-----any new hire is going to be a crap shoot -- absolutely no guarantees

 

i wouldnt like the responsibility of making this decision-- but if i had it-- i would pass on all of those games as being just TOO RISKY--- we could still find ourselves in 3 years still losing to USC and Michigan --- and still playing in minor bowl games and all this new coach ferver just turns sour as the chatter starts for a new guy yet again---ouch!

 

so if i had to pick it would be GRUDEN for several reasons

 

1st)--- recruiting-- weis showed how young kids get really wowed by super bowl rings and talk of the NFL!--- kelly & the others mentioned just arent going to be meeted with anywhere near the enthusiasm------any of the other coaches are going to have to be in a show me position before they get big traction--- however with gruden-- the cache of Notre Dame-- coupled with the GRUDEN BRAND so well known in the NFL-- will KILL ON THE RECRUITING TRAIL----AND DO SO FROM THE GET GO

 

Look at what weis got from his association with the PATS -- and remember NO ONE EVEN HEARD OF WEIS WHEN HE STARTED RECRUITING--- GRUDEN & ND__ SEEMS AS CLOSE TO A CANT LOOSE MATCH OF HIGH PROFILE IMPACT!

 

2) Gruden is a proven head coach at the highest level and under the highest pressure-- well lets call playing for championships in the NFL the second highest pressure cooker NEXT TO HC AT ND!!!

 

Gruden has the GOLD RING--- He has the NFL contacts and name the recruits want--no one will be asking is this job too big for him

 

3)---- the youth , image & energy--- that gruden could bring to the program is not matched by any of the previously mentioned candidates

 

4)-- Gruden does have a substantial ND history-- even if it is more tangential then charlies alumni status

 

5)--- he seems to really want the job--- I THINK____ and would immediately upon being hired have his name mentioned right there with the proven elite coaches in college-- even though he never was a college head coach

 

Bottom Line--- next to urban meyer--a discussion not worth having---------JON GRUDEN JUST SEEMS AS CLOSE TO A GUARANTEE OF SUCCESS AS WE CAN HIRE!

 

I still think 3 wins as unlikey as that may seem at this point will probably save charlie's job-- BUT IF A CALL FOR ANOTHER COACH HAS TO BE MADE__ MY VOTE IS FOR GRUDEN!!! aloha go irish!

tors from the NFL will result in failure for ND

 

Second:

1. Some college coaches have been successful in smaller programs,

2. Some of these college coaches have also been successful at larger programs,

3. Ergo, ND needs to hire a college coach who is successful at a smaller program

in order for it to be successful

 

Look at the former Boise St coach Dan Hawkins who is now (though not for much longer) at Colorado.

all these guys " sound fine"--- but there are ZERO guarantees in the lot of them------the idea that if we hire brian kelly-- or petersen or wittigham--- means the program is back on its feet racing, toward a national title is just HOPE TALIKNG---- its alright to be optimistic over some of these coaches-- but facts are ND is a totally different animal then cicny or boise-----any new hire is going to be a crap shoot -- absolutely no guarantees

 

i wouldnt like the responsibility of making this decision-- but if i had it-- i would pass on all of those games as being just TOO RISKY--- we could still find ourselves in 3 years still losing to USC and Michigan --- and still playing in minor bowl games and all this new coach ferver just turns sour as the chatter starts for a new guy yet again---ouch!

 

so if i had to pick it would be GRUDEN for several reasons

 

1st)--- recruiting-- weis showed how young kids get really wowed by super bowl rings and talk of the NFL!--- kelly & the others mentioned just arent going to be meeted with anywhere near the enthusiasm------any of the other coaches are going to have to be in a show me position before they get big traction--- however with gruden-- the cache of Notre Dame-- coupled with the GRUDEN BRAND so well known in the NFL-- will KILL ON THE RECRUITING TRAIL----AND DO SO FROM THE GET GO

 

Look at what weis got from his association with the PATS -- and remember NO ONE EVEN HEARD OF WEIS WHEN HE STARTED RECRUITING--- GRUDEN & ND__ SEEMS AS CLOSE TO A CANT LOOSE MATCH OF HIGH PROFILE IMPACT!

 

2) Gruden is a proven head coach at the highest level and under the highest pressure-- well lets call playing for championships in the NFL the second highest pressure cooker NEXT TO HC AT ND!!!

 

Gruden has the GOLD RING--- He has the NFL contacts and name the recruits want--no one will be asking is this job too big for him

 

3)---- the youth , image & energy--- that gruden could bring to the program is not matched by any of the previously mentioned candidates

 

4)-- Gruden does have a substantial ND history-- even if it is more tangential then charlies alumni status

 

5)--- he seems to really want the job--- I THINK____ and would immediately upon being hired have his name mentioned right there with the proven elite coaches in college-- even though he never was a college head coach

 

Bottom Line--- next to urban meyer--a discussion not worth having---------JON GRUDEN JUST SEEMS AS CLOSE TO A GUARANTEE OF SUCCESS AS WE CAN HIRE!

 

I still think 3 wins as unlikey as that may seem at this point will probably save charlie's job-- BUT IF A CALL FOR ANOTHER COACH HAS TO BE MADE__ MY VOTE IS FOR GRUDEN!!! aloha go irish!

 

I agree with you that it's no guarantee that a Kelly or Peterson (if chosen) would come in and succeed at ND. However, it's no guarantee that Gruden would succeed either...prime example Bill Callahan at Nebraska.

But Katz our fans bleat out Weis has no signiture win...what are theirs?

You're right SJ. But for me it really isn't the signature wins that has me doubting Weis. It is the signature losses ... GT, MSU, Purdue, Navy twice, Syracuse

rock said fellatious........................

What do you mean "they"? I'm a dude, playing dude, actin like a dude... So, whatchoo mean "They"???

having had success in the NFL might make kids coming in from high school excited for what their potential could be, but if the coach teaching them what more they need to know at the college level isnt as good at teaching and coaching then its not necessarily going to lead to success at the college level.

the college game is different than the NFL. players in the NFL are allready well matured well talented professional players, where players just coming into the college game still have learning and growing to do not only as football players but as men.

im not saying NFL coaches couldnt have success with college players, but im saying just because some big name has had alot of success in the NFL doesnt mean he could just come in and be successful in a situation he has never been in before.

i would lean more towards a coach who allready has experience at continuing to teach football to boys and helping them improve their game and become more mature as men over some big name coach from the NFL who has rings

But Katz our fans bleat out Weis has no signiture win...what are theirs?

 

This logic kills me. We are holding these guys to such a higher standard. CW has elite talent and we forgive losses to Syracuse and Navy and no signature wins, then when we discuss the Kellys and Petersens of the world who are not losing to inferior teams and beating superior teams yet we have the hall to ask them to beat the USCs and Alabamas of the world with smoke and mirrors talent.

I agree with you that it's no guarantee that a Kelly or Peterson (if chosen) would come in and succeed at ND. However, it's no guarantee that Gruden would succeed either...prime example Bill Callahan at Nebraska.

 

Factor in too that Bobby Bowden (FSU) at 80 is showing signs of advancing decrepitude, I wouldn't be surprised that one of our prospective dream coaches is approached as a replacement. It is said he's not able to follow the game anymore and doesn't know his team's score at half time.