We're younger than you think...

[Franco]

This is not intended to defend the team for tonight's performance, this has just been on my mind.

 

I'm just throwing together a mish-mash of ideas, I'm too pissed to really put this together.

 

Lately, I've been hearing people say, "we need to stop using our youth as an excuse."

 

Well, I'm gonna use it for one more year.

 

The reason I'm not jumping off the Charlie Weis bandwagon yet is because all of the talent is truly with the Freshmen and Sophomore classes. Everyone thinks, well, Weis has had 4 years to recruit, his guys should be delivering on the field. We all know 2005 was a wash with a handful of them, as starters. But the only real game changer in this class is Bruton.

 

What most people believe is that Weis' first REAL class was 2006, and that the talent in this class should finally be coming through, but I honestly believe this class is FULL of busts that don't live up to their star ranking.

 

First off, the ranking was skewed because of the sheer number of recruits we took in that year. Secondly, like I said above, about 95% of the 4-5 star guys haven't lived up to their billing, with none of the 3-star people exceding theirs (ala Jeff Samardzjia and Carlson)...Third, the losses due to transfers really hurt this class...in fact, the ones who have stayed, most of them have pretty much been leap-frogged by the frosh's and sophs. Just a quick list of the people we lost in 2006: Frazier (4), D.Jones (4), Rueland (4), Carufel (4) are the ones that come to mind.

 

Having realized all of that, I came to the conclusion that the 2006 class was and is not a top 10 class. I'd probably rank them in the 25-30 and that's because guys like Sergio Brown, Darrin Walls, McNeil, and even Yeatman have all played exceptionally well.

 

In reality, this class is no better than the ones Willingham recruited and that all of our talent TRULY lies within the Sophomore and Freshmen classes (with 2010 coming in)...What did you say? Other teams have loads of young players that contribute and even start and they're doing well. Yea, well, other teams have a core of upperclassmen starters that hold up and support the younger guys. This team is the other way around. A Core of younger guys supporting the veterans.

[Guest irishangler]

This is not intended to defend the team for tonight's performance, this has just been on my mind.

 

I'm just throwing together a mish-mash of ideas, I'm too pissed to really put this together.

 

Lately, I've been hearing people say, "we need to stop using our youth as an excuse."

 

Well, I'm gonna use it for one more year.

 

The reason I'm not jumping off the Charlie Weis bandwagon yet is because all of the talent is truly with the Freshmen and Sophomore classes. Everyone thinks, well, Weis has had 4 years to recruit, his guys should be delivering on the field. We all know 2005 was a wash with a handful of them, as starters. But the only real game changer in this class is Bruton.

 

What most people believe is that Weis' first REAL class was 2006, and that the talent in this class should finally be coming through, but I honestly believe this class is FULL of busts that don't live up to their star ranking.

 

First off, the ranking was skewed because of the sheer number of recruits we took in that year. Secondly, like I said above, about 95% of the 4-5 star guys haven't lived up to their billing, with none of the 3-star people exceding theirs (ala Jeff Samardzjia and Carlson)...Third, the losses due to transfers really hurt this class...in fact, the ones who have stayed, most of them have pretty much been leap-frogged by the frosh's and sophs. Just a quick list of the people we lost in 2006: Frazier (4), D.Jones (4), Rueland (4), Carufel (4) are the ones that come to mind.

 

Having realized all of that, I came to the conclusion that the 2006 class was and is not a top 10 class. I'd probably rank them in the 25-30 and that's because guys like Sergio Brown, Darrin Walls, McNeil, and even Yeatman have all played exceptionally well.

 

In reality, this class is no better than the ones Willingham recruited and that all of our talent TRULY lies within the Sophomore and Freshmen classes (with 2010 coming in)...What did you say? Other teams have loads of young players that contribute and even start and they're doing well. Yea, well, other teams have a core of upperclassmen starters that hold up and support the younger guys. This team is the other way around. A Core of younger guys supporting the veterans.

 

while i respect your opinion, you are simply 100% incorrect! JC is a complete fraud...*big difference between JV cali football and big time D1 football. Tate is a kid who has gotten lucky with some miracle interceptions. these kids will be lucky enough to win against the remaining schedule, and can simply forget ANY future in the NFL. And please, please, let us get a QB that can throw. Any idiot and defend JC all they want, the proof is in the pudding... a terrible record against a medicore collegiate schedule. For crying f*&ing outloud, we got SHUT OUT!!!! are you kidding me!

[potownhero]

This is not intended to defend the team for tonight's performance, this has just been on my mind.

 

I'm just throwing together a mish-mash of ideas, I'm too pissed to really put this together.

 

Lately, I've been hearing people say, "we need to stop using our youth as an excuse."

 

Well, I'm gonna use it for one more year.

 

The reason I'm not jumping off the Charlie Weis bandwagon yet is because all of the talent is truly with the Freshmen and Sophomore classes. Everyone thinks, well, Weis has had 4 years to recruit, his guys should be delivering on the field. We all know 2005 was a wash with a handful of them, as starters. But the only real game changer in this class is Bruton.

 

What most people believe is that Weis' first REAL class was 2006, and that the talent in this class should finally be coming through, but I honestly believe this class is FULL of busts that don't live up to their star ranking.

 

First off, the ranking was skewed because of the sheer number of recruits we took in that year. Secondly, like I said above, about 95% of the 4-5 star guys haven't lived up to their billing, with none of the 3-star people exceding theirs (ala Jeff Samardzjia and Carlson)...Third, the losses due to transfers really hurt this class...in fact, the ones who have stayed, most of them have pretty much been leap-frogged by the frosh's and sophs. Just a quick list of the people we lost in 2006: Frazier (4), D.Jones (4), Rueland (4), Carufel (4) are the ones that come to mind.

 

Having realized all of that, I came to the conclusion that the 2006 class was and is not a top 10 class. I'd probably rank them in the 25-30 and that's because guys like Sergio Brown, Darrin Walls, McNeil, and even Yeatman have all played exceptionally well.

 

In reality, this class is no better than the ones Willingham recruited and that all of our talent TRULY lies within the Sophomore and Freshmen classes (with 2010 coming in)...What did you say? Other teams have loads of young players that contribute and even start and they're doing well. Yea, well, other teams have a core of upperclassmen starters that hold up and support the younger guys. This team is the other way around. A Core of younger guys supporting the veterans.

 

 

How about the O Line? They aren't young. Argument ends there.

 

Whoever controls the line of scrimmage controls the game.

[IrishGuy]

while i respect your opinion, you are simply 100% incorrect! JC is a complete fraud...*big difference between JV cali football and big time D1 football. Tate is a kid who has gotten lucky with some miracle interceptions. these kids will be lucky enough to win against the remaining schedule, and can simply forget ANY future in the NFL. And please, please, let us get a QB that can throw. Any idiot and defend JC all they want, the proof is in the pudding... a terrible record against a medicore collegiate schedule. For crying f*&ing outloud, we got SHUT OUT!!!! are you kidding me!

 

Were you drunk when you typed this?

 

JC is a fraud? Really? The kid is on the verge of greatness. He is playing without a running game, and without an offensive line....he looked crappy tonight, but that happens. You can't watch a game and say he doesn't have an arm. His accuracy is also waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up there. He has some issues he needs to work out....but do not forget, this kid was sacked an NCAA record number of times last year, and he is a little gunshy. It does not help that our line still sucks.

 

...and if you honestly think Tate is just a "lucky" receiver.....then you really need to start watching another sport.....maybe cricket or something.

 

Maybe you should just quit giving your opinion on a players play and their abilities. Your one paragraph of analysis is so completely wrong I actually laughed. Thanks for cheering me up after a miserable night.

[DScottND]

I have held on and hoped Charlie would turn this around for almost two years now. He has been figured out on offense and is to cute and thinks he is two freaking smart for his own good. He spends way to much time in practice installing different offensive schemes rather than developing the players. As much as we all thought he changed at the end of last year you are what you are folks and he is always going to be Charlie. I am done we have had one good year since the mid 90's and it is time we quite accepting being average. Charlie I thank you for your great recruiting efforts and for your love of our university, but I think it is time for you to accept your failures and move along. It is not Haywood/Latina that is the problem (both had productive running games during their past experiences) rather it is the scheme that Weis implements and his unwillingness to use practice time to simplify and develop his players. N

 

No more excuses about Ty's players or being young - I don't care we have more talent by far than BC and got destroyed. It was also the way we got beat - penalties, turnovers, special teams, and utter confusion on offense - guess what folks - Charlie is the head coach and he in particular is responsible for each of these areas. So I am done I want him gone after this year. I don't know who ND should hire, but one thing is for sure it can't be any worse than the last three hires.

[Guest irishrick]

good points by everyone . I will wait till the end of the season and see what changes are going to be made , Charlie is the boss, lets see what changes he will make as we cannot go on like this , Got to give BC some credit they played a terrific game and the play calling was truly outstanding, they took away our passing attack and we have no run game , so lets just plod along till the end of the season , there will be some changes, our players are talented but i just don't see the determination in there body language like the teams we have played. in all honesty the only real game where we showed some spark was the Michigan game the rest have been ho-hum , our players need some spark instilled . go Irish

[GeorgiaIrishFanChuck]

This is not intended to defend the team for tonight's performance, this has just been on my mind.

 

I'm just throwing together a mish-mash of ideas, I'm too pissed to really put this together.

 

Lately, I've been hearing people say, "we need to stop using our youth as an excuse."

 

Well, I'm gonna use it for one more year.

 

The reason I'm not jumping off the Charlie Weis bandwagon yet is because all of the talent is truly with the Freshmen and Sophomore classes. Everyone thinks, well, Weis has had 4 years to recruit, his guys should be delivering on the field. We all know 2005 was a wash with a handful of them, as starters. But the only real game changer in this class is Bruton.

 

What most people believe is that Weis' first REAL class was 2006, and that the talent in this class should finally be coming through, but I honestly believe this class is FULL of busts that don't live up to their star ranking.

 

First off, the ranking was skewed because of the sheer number of recruits we took in that year. Secondly, like I said above, about 95% of the 4-5 star guys haven't lived up to their billing, with none of the 3-star people exceding theirs (ala Jeff Samardzjia and Carlson)...Third, the losses due to transfers really hurt this class...in fact, the ones who have stayed, most of them have pretty much been leap-frogged by the frosh's and sophs. Just a quick list of the people we lost in 2006: Frazier (4), D.Jones (4), Rueland (4), Carufel (4) are the ones that come to mind.

 

Having realized all of that, I came to the conclusion that the 2006 class was and is not a top 10 class. I'd probably rank them in the 25-30 and that's because guys like Sergio Brown, Darrin Walls, McNeil, and even Yeatman have all played exceptionally well.

 

In reality, this class is no better than the ones Willingham recruited and that all of our talent TRULY lies within the Sophomore and Freshmen classes (with 2010 coming in)...What did you say? Other teams have loads of young players that contribute and even start and they're doing well. Yea, well, other teams have a core of upperclassmen starters that hold up and support the younger guys. This team is the other way around. A Core of younger guys supporting the veterans.

 

I'm with ya Franco. To a certian extend anyway. I believe we are definitely young. If you look at Penn St they have 18 seniors or 5th yr seniors starting. Even BC had two 5th year DT that caused us a ton of problems. I'm not willing to call the whole 2006 class a bust or even Willinghamish. You are right that the Freshman and Sophomores in many cases have leapfrogged the 2006 Juniors. But there are several players out of that class that make the class still successful...Young, Walls (who we really could have used this year), Wenger, Olsen, McNeil. But your are right that the class was rated as high as it was partly due to numbers and many of the "numbers" are not here ... Jones, Walls, Carufel, Reuland, Frazer, Jackson, Prince, Yeatman, Webb. There are several others that or injured ... Schmidt, Stewart, and there are some that are just not as good as advertised although most were only three stars anyway ... Aldridge, Richardson, Ryan, Wade, Mullen, West, Parris. Hell even the kicker from that class was not great.

 

With that said I still worry that we are being outcoached. I'm not willing to say we need to fire Wies. That would be mismanagement. I do often wonder why we weren't hiring experienced assistant coaches like BC has. Okay we hired Tenuta this year and I like it but our offensive and defensive coordinators are both first time coordinators. During the game yesterday the announcers said Tenuta learned to coach from BC's defensive coordinator. Does ND seem like the place to train coordinators? If Weis was calling the plays I would be ok with a rookie OC. When Lou Holtz won the NC, he was calling the offensive plays and Barry Alvarez was calling the defensive plays.

 

But I'm still not ready to get ride of the coach. It is a total myth that we were dominated. We had 292 yds to BC's 246. We threw 4 interceptions and had a fumbled punt. How can this be the game that makes us decide to fire the coach?

[Irish Chris]

I'm with ya Franco. To a certian extend anyway. I believe we are definitely young. If you look at Penn St they have 18 seniors or 5th yr seniors starting. Even BC had two 5th year DT that caused us a ton of problems. I'm not willing to call the whole 2006 class a bust or even Willinghamish. You are right that the Freshman and Sophomores in many cases have leapfrogged the 2006 Juniors. But there are several players out of that class that make the class still successful...Young, Walls (who we really could have used this year), Wenger, Olsen, McNeil. But your are right that the class was rated as high as it was partly due to numbers and many of the "numbers" are not here ... Jones, Walls, Carufel, Reuland, Frazer, Jackson, Prince, Yeatman, Webb. There are several others that or injured ... Schmidt, Stewart, and there are some that are just not as good as advertised although most were only three stars anyway ... Aldridge, Richardson, Ryan, Wade, Mullen, West, Parris. Hell even the kicker from that class was not great.

 

With that said I still worry that we are being outcoached. I'm not willing to say we need to fire Wies. That would be mismanagement. I do often wonder why we weren't hiring experienced assistant coaches like BC has. Okay we hired Tenuta this year and I like it but our offensive and defensive coordinators are both first time coordinators. During the game yesterday the announcers said Tenuta learned to coach from BC's defensive coordinator. Does ND seem like the place to train coordinators? If Weis was calling the plays I would be ok with a rookie OC. When Lou Holtz won the NC, he was calling the offensive plays and Barry Alvarez was calling the defensive plays.

 

But I'm still not ready to get ride of the coach. It is a total myth that we were dominated. We had 292 yds to BC's 246. We threw 4 interceptions and had a fumbled punt. How can this be the game that makes us decide to fire the coach?

 

Great points Georgia.

Charlie still has one more year to prove he know's what he's doing.

 

Great points also DScott.

It was hard to disagree with a lot that you had to say.

But I say that Latina and Mendoza are absolutely the problem on this team.

I understand that T Rob is a freshman, but Olsen and Wenger have been in the program for three years now.

They were absolutely man-handled by two D tackles that weighed only 20 pounds more than them.

 

Strength, conditioning, technique, and teaching all fall into these 2 coach's laps.

The choice to fire them falls into Charlie's lap.

This is where he needs to be a better head coach.

By making changes that can make us better.

[irishziggy]

IMO if you're a good coach star rankings dont matter. Like BC's coach asked, who was recruited to go to ND, no one raised their hand. We got beat by a bunch of guys who we didnt think were good enough to come to ND. We havent been able to develop our players. CW gets 1 more year and if we suck next year, he should get fired

[Franco]

How about the O Line? They aren't young. Argument ends there.

 

Whoever controls the line of scrimmage controls the game.

 

Ummm...thank you for confirming my point...The O-Line isn't young, you're right...but like I said, it's made up mostly of the 2006 class with Wenger, Young, Olsen, Stewart...my point was the 2006 class hasn't lived up to their top 10 ranking. Hence, we are younger than you think because the actual TALENT is in the Freshmen and Sophomore classes...

 

Remember, this is in no way excusing them from last night's debacle.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Franco

[Franco]

while i respect your opinion, you are simply 100% incorrect! JC is a complete fraud...*big difference between JV cali football and big time D1 football. Tate is a kid who has gotten lucky with some miracle interceptions. these kids will be lucky enough to win against the remaining schedule, and can simply forget ANY future in the NFL. And please, please, let us get a QB that can throw. Any idiot and defend JC all they want, the proof is in the pudding... a terrible record against a medicore collegiate schedule. For crying f*&ing outloud, we got SHUT OUT!!!! are you kidding me!

 

Were you drunk when you typed this?

 

JC is a fraud? Really? The kid is on the verge of greatness. He is playing without a running game, and without an offensive line....he looked crappy tonight, but that happens. You can't watch a game and say he doesn't have an arm. His accuracy is also waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up there. He has some issues he needs to work out....but do not forget, this kid was sacked an NCAA record number of times last year, and he is a little gunshy. It does not help that our line still sucks.

 

...and if you honestly think Tate is just a "lucky" receiver.....then you really need to start watching another sport.....maybe cricket or something.

 

Maybe you should just quit giving your opinion on a players play and their abilities. Your one paragraph of analysis is so completely wrong I actually laughed. Thanks for cheering me up after a miserable night.

 

I'm with Irishguy on this....Jimmy can only do so much. I was gonna post another thread about this but I guess I'll talk about it here...

 

When you're one dimensional like we are, a QB can only do so much to lead his team. in 2005 and 2006, we at least had some form of running game to make the secondary respect the run a little.

 

The opposition has caught on, and the teams with strong D-Lines can just send a 3 to 4 man rush with multiple looks (dropping D-Linemen) and basically dropping 7 or 8. JC can only do so much in this respect. This all falls on the O-Lines lack of run blocking. No one respects the run or our Oline because they feel they can get enough pressure and penetration with just 3 or 4 (which they can).

[Pregame]

Ummm...thank you for confirming my point...The O-Line isn't young, you're right...but like I said, it's made up mostly of the 2006 class with Wenger, Young, Olsen, Stewart...my point was the 2006 class hasn't lived up to their top 10 ranking. Hence, we are younger than you think because the actual TALENT is in the Freshmen and Sophomore classes...

 

Remember, this is in no way excusing them from last night's debacle.

Your argument doesn't make much sense to me. So because our starting offensive line has not lived up to their billing they shouldn't be counted towards our experience? Is every team that isn't playing well "young" if there are talented recruiting classes behind the upperclassmen? What happens if our freshmen and sophomores don't live up to the top 10 recruiting rankings? The fact that they aren't playing well is even more of an indictment of the coaching staff in my eyes.

[Franco]

Your argument doesn't make much sense to me. So because our starting offensive line has not lived up to their billing they shouldn't be counted towards our experience?

 

Yes, because I'm stating that out of the 3.5 classes Weis recruited, I'm arguing that his TRULY talented classes are his sophomore and freshmen classes. And I consider the 2006 class almost a wash (so far) just like the 2005 class; almost as if Weis just wanted to bring in as many bodies in as possible.

 

Is every team that isn't playing well "young" if there are talented recruiting classes behind the upperclassmen?

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say here...please reiterate

 

What happens if our freshmen and sophomores don't live up to the top 10 recruiting rankings? The fact that they aren't playing well is even more of an indictment of the coaching staff in my eyes.

 

I was merely arguing the fact that when you stated "our o-line isn't young" insinuating that youth cannot be an excuse for the o-line. BUT I never used youth as an excuse for the o-line...I was merely stating that the talent lies int he underclassmen. And from observation, it looks like Trevor Robinson is doing quite well already.

 

Your point about "what if the freshmen and sophomores don't live up to their top 10 ranking" is moot...we won't know until earliest, middle to end of next year will we?

 

And I do agree with you with the coaching, but the WHOLE point of this thread is to point out that Weis' truly talented classes are his sophomore and freshmen classes, that's all.

[Pregame]

And I do agree with you with the coaching, but the WHOLE point of this thread is to point out that Weis' truly talented classes are his sophomore and freshmen classes, that's all.

http://notredame.rivals.com/commitlist.asp (click for 2006)

Seems to be fairly talented class, most talented line class at least. Future of line play is troublesome if this trend continues

[Irish Chris]

Yes, because I'm stating that out of the 3.5 classes Weis recruited, I'm arguing that his TRULY talented classes are his sophomore and freshmen classes. And I consider the 2006 class almost a wash (so far) just like the 2005 class; almost as if Weis just wanted to bring in as many bodies in as possible.

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say here...please reiterate

 

 

 

I was merely arguing the fact that when you stated "our o-line isn't young" insinuating that youth cannot be an excuse for the o-line. BUT I never used youth as an excuse for the o-line...I was merely stating that the talent lies int he underclassmen. And from observation, it looks like Trevor Robinson is doing quite well already.

 

Your point about "what if the freshmen and sophomores don't live up to their top 10 ranking" is moot...we won't know until earliest, middle to end of next year will we?

 

And I do agree with you with the coaching, but the WHOLE point of this thread is to point out that Weis' truly talented classes are his sophomore and freshmen classes, that's all.

 

I have to say Franco, there's no doubt in my mind that the freshmen and soph classes are better than the 2006.

There's also no arguing the fact that the 2006 class gave us some much needed numbers in the O line. If only they had some great coaching, but that's for another thread.

'06 gave us much needed depth of a higher caliber player.

This allowed CW to be more selective his last two classes.

 

And while we're on the talent of the last two classes, what happened to Blanton getting the start over TL?

I don't think he would have looked so silly on BC's only offensive TD in the game.

Let the best players play Charlie.

You have no choice now.

[chirodomer]

I'm with ya Franco. To a certian extend anyway. I believe we are definitely young. If you look at Penn St they have 18 seniors or 5th yr seniors starting. Even BC had two 5th year DT that caused us a ton of problems. I'm not willing to call the whole 2006 class a bust or even Willinghamish. You are right that the Freshman and Sophomores in many cases have leapfrogged the 2006 Juniors. But there are several players out of that class that make the class still successful...Young, Walls (who we really could have used this year), Wenger, Olsen, McNeil. But your are right that the class was rated as high as it was partly due to numbers and many of the "numbers" are not here ... Jones, Walls, Carufel, Reuland, Frazer, Jackson, Prince, Yeatman, Webb. There are several others that or injured ... Schmidt, Stewart, and there are some that are just not as good as advertised although most were only three stars anyway ... Aldridge, Richardson, Ryan, Wade, Mullen, West, Parris. Hell even the kicker from that class was not great.

 

With that said I still worry that we are being outcoached. I'm not willing to say we need to fire Wies. That would be mismanagement. I do often wonder why we weren't hiring experienced assistant coaches like BC has. Okay we hired Tenuta this year and I like it but our offensive and defensive coordinators are both first time coordinators. During the game yesterday the announcers said Tenuta learned to coach from BC's defensive coordinator. Does ND seem like the place to train coordinators? If Weis was calling the plays I would be ok with a rookie OC. When Lou Holtz won the NC, he was calling the offensive plays and Barry Alvarez was calling the defensive plays.

 

But I'm still not ready to get ride of the coach. It is a total myth that we were dominated. We had 292 yds to BC's 246. We threw 4 interceptions and had a fumbled punt. How can this be the game that makes us decide to fire the coach?

 

Hey Georgia! Would an SEC coach get this long to win????? I know UGA and Auburn well. I would say...........No! Tuberville might get tossed this year!

[chirodomer]

Terrail Lambert will play on Sunday. Sounds like punishment or politics to me.

[Franco]

http://notredame.rivals.com/commitlist.asp (click for 2006)

Seems to be fairly talented class, most talented line class at least. Future of line play is troublesome if this trend continues

 

hmmmm...you seem to forget transfers

 

Demetrius Jones - trans. to Cincinnati

Zach Frazier - Trans. to UConn

Matt Carufel - Transferred

Richard Jackson - Transferred

Munir Prince - Transferred

Konrad Rueland - Trans. to Stanford

Luke Schmidt - out pretty much indefinitely due to concussions

Bartley Webb - Out indefinitely

 

That's pretty much most of the star power in the class gone

 

Sam Young

Eric Olsen

Chris Stewart

Dan Wenger

 

well, we all know how the O-line is

 

As of the 3-star guys....Everyone, except Sergio Brown and Will Yeatman (we all know the story) has been passed up by the younger classes

 

Darrin Walls and Reashon McNeil are defintely worth their 4-star rankings.

[domeanddomer]

I don't think McNeil is all that great. Offenses pick on his side for a reason.

[FlyinIrish]

Our line may not be that young in terms of number or years on the team, but aren't still fairly young in terms of starts? I don't think that they have performed up to par, but I think that the talent is there. I think that Turko is the only starter that we lose after this year, so if we can get someone to coach them up, they still have the potential to be a very good unit.