Can someone please explain OL

[ErickJD08]

I watch a ton of football but I am no expert on assessment.

 

Our line is Jr's and Sr's. They all have experience. They had some sort of potential coming out of HS. They are all over 300lbs (I think). During the MSU game, commentators always mentioned how heavy the MSU line was but that is how heavy the ND line is. How is it that they can't move players on the other side? Is it basics, techniques, fundamentals, or dare I say coaching? I have a REALLY REALLY hard time believing that the group is just that bad.

[ND FANATIC]

Is it basics, techniques, fundamentals, or dare I say coaching? I have a REALLY REALLY hard time believing that the group is just that bad.

 

Yes, its everything you mentioned and it should be being taught/reinforced from their position coach - and it doesn't appear that it is happening. Its been 4 yrs now and the play of the OL has not gotten any better, it may have even digressed - as I've been saying for over a year now, its time for a change.

Edited September 22, 2008 by ND FANATIC

[IrishGuy]

Yes, its everything you mentioned and it should be being taught/reinforced from their position coach - and it doesn't appear that it is happening. Its been 4 yrs now and the play of the OL has not gotten any better, it may have even digressed - as I've been saying for over a year now, its time for a change.

 

There is no hiding the fact that our line has gotten worse each year (and technically, we keep getting BETTER players). Last year, we had the WORST line I have ever seen (in any level of the sport) so it doesn't surprise me that we have either slightly improved or stayed the same.

 

Sam Young came in to his college career almost NFL ready. After spending 3 years playing for Latina, he will be lucky if his name gets called at all in the draft.

 

We had to suffer with having a horrible defense for 2 seasons before CW made a move. Since Latina benefited from having an experienced line that had been coached up by someone else for 2 years, last year was really the first year that we had to deal with a horrible line. This is the second year, and I fully expect CW to replace him after this season.

 

The good news is that there is so much talent there that any respectable oline coach will come in and immediately turn it around.

Edited September 22, 2008 by ND FANATIC

[Katzenboyer]

There really are no excuses. I don't know if it's coaching, or what, but the OL has shown no improvement, and that's a result of SOMETHING. Something certainly needs to change after this season, because this is just bad.

[BlackIrish42]

the OL has shown no improvement

 

well, that is just plain factually INCORRECT! the OL has given up 3 sacks in 3 games. now, how many sacks did they give up last year after 3 games? clearly an improvement.

 

like the WHOLE team, the OL has improved, just not as much as we had hoped, expected, etc. but to say there has been NO improvement by the OL is plain wrong. you're entitled to your opinion but not your facts...

[money]

Pass Blocking which they have improved upon this year is mainly technique...however run blocking is more of who wants it more....granted there is some technique involved but for the most part is knowing who to block fitting him up and driving him backwards with good leverage and leg drive. In my opinion It could be a matter of teams stacking the box and saying ND will have to beat us with the pass in which case there are more men coming than we are able to block see bears vs Tampa bay yesterday where TB threw the ball 65 odd times and only averaged 1.9 yds per carry (they were leading the league before this game on Yrds per Carry). I expect to see ND start passing more to open up the run get the D out of the box to respect the pass and that should soften them up against the run. Although I make no excuses for these guys the run blocking has not been good enough there are times when teams are loading up the box and you just need to be able to get atleast 3 yrds. Whether its motivation or whatever it is if they don't get it done this year I think there has to be a coaching change at the OL position. just my 2 cents.

[ND FANATIC]

I think you hit alot of peoples frustration on the head money - our lack of run blocking. For me, the frustrating part of the lack of run blocking isn't a lack of talent, youth, intelligence or depth - its the apparent lack of desire to do it well. There are certain techniques that great run blockers have, but for the most part, run blocking comes down to attitude and desire - and our guys don't display either

 

The pass blocking is more improved this year, but unless we can run the ball, we will never be a great team.

[da coach]

There is no hiding the fact that our line has gotten worse each year (and technically, we keep getting BETTER players). Last year, we had the WORST line I have ever seen (in any level of the sport) so it doesn't surprise me that we have either slightly improved or stayed the same.

 

Sam Young came in to his college career almost NFL ready. After spending 3 years playing for Latina, he will be lucky if his name gets called at all in the draft.

 

We had to suffer with having a horrible defense for 2 seasons before CW made a move. Since Latina benefited from having an experienced line that had been coached up by someone else for 2 years, last year was really the first year that we had to deal with a horrible line. This is the second year, and I fully expect CW to replace him after this season.

 

The good news is that there is so much talent there that any respectable oline coach will come in and immediately turn it around.

 

 

Oh you are so full of crap its ridiculous... Sam Young came in with as much hype as any lineman in recent years true, but he wasn't close to being NFL ready. The kid has gone through some growing pains, but has done a nice job in the run game and is still improving as a pass blocker on the right side. He will play for 4 years, and I will bet you he is a first or second round pick in the 2010 draft....The simple fact is the high school ranking system is about as accurate as Shaq from the free throw line.

 

The other reality is that this year's o-line hasn't played badly...They had one bad game against Michigan State who will play every team tough...

 

Get off your high horse, you are starting to sound like a pompus blowhard know nothing.

[da coach]

I played college football and I played offensive line... The physical growth between your sophomore year and your junior year is incredible...the line is starting to show some chemistry and have done a nice job picking up the blitz...The one player who I would point to missing a few blocks that gave up sacks would be Wenger (51)...He looks a little slow footed and could be struggling the most in this group...

 

The running game is struggling because Hughes has no burst whatsoever, he is a musher, who needs to pound the ball 20-25 times a game... Armando is a nice change of pace back, who needs to be used in the screen/draw game more, but everyone on the field knows thats what is going to be called when he comes on the field...Aldridge has the best balance between those two skill sets, but he hasn't gotten much playing time and rumors of a recent DUI may lead to his dismissal...

 

The offensive line is a work in progress, but the progress thus far has been amazing, and Latina should be commended for his efforts not torn down after one mediocre game.

[Ray Herring]

Oliver and Latina must have dirt on Weis. Their lines are terrible.

[D Fence]

Oliver and Latina must have dirt on Weis.

 

Ray - that is hilarious. Seriously though, I do think it's a combination of things. We do have to open up the plays and keep the defense off-balance. Any team that can take away one aspect of your attack successfully will have a huge edge. We should open up in the air and in the no-huddle to keep other team's bigger guys chasing our smaller receivers around and then mix in some runs here and there. You just can't run the ball when everyone in the stadium is looking for the run, and it does appear other teams are looking for that because our play action has been pretty successful in the first few games.

 

I saw either on this board or somewhere else someone mentioning the OL splits, and I wonder if our scheme is working against us relative to run blocking. Whoever saw that, wrote it or knows more about this, please chime in. The thinking was that perhaps wider splits are more effective in spreading a front 7 out more and are better against the run, but smaller splits are more effective in pass / blitz coverage. We obviously can't telegraph what we're running based on the splits, but it is an intersting idea to think about. I did notice SDSU also had very small splits against us, and with a shotgun and short routes, we had a lot of trouble getting to the QB (they also had major issues running the ball).

 

The only argument against the split issue I can see is that yes, smaller splits might account for things getting bunched up, but you still need to blow your man out of space 3-4 yards downfield, and we haven't been able to do that consistently.

[ErickJD08]

Thanks for the feedback. I was particular looking for feedback from someone like "da coach" who used to play OL. I played a ton of basketball so I know how ex-players can see more to the play than your casual football fan.

 

"Da Coach" mentioned the big step that players make on the OL from sophomore to junior year. I have heard that and that is why I am so upset about their performance against MSU and SDS. I thought SDS was just a first game jitters and ND looked decent against Michigan. But the MSU game was just upsetting to see a team not play well by any extent of the imagination with the run. They all have experience playing in games. They are all upper classmen. They are all BIG guys. I see anything less than an average performance is unacceptable, in my opinion. If Da coach or any other ex-OL are reading, can coaching or schemes make the difference in the world? Do you think the coaches are to blames or is it the kids? Thanks guys.

[Donjuan]

Ray - that is hilarious. Seriously though, I do think it's a combination of things. We do have to open up the plays and keep the defense off-balance. Any team that can take away one aspect of your attack successfully will have a huge edge. We should open up in the air and in the no-huddle to keep other team's bigger guys chasing our smaller receivers around and then mix in some runs here and there. You just can't run the ball when everyone in the stadium is looking for the run, and it does appear other teams are looking for that because our play action has been pretty successful in the first few games.

 

I saw either on this board or somewhere else someone mentioning the OL splits, and I wonder if our scheme is working against us relative to run blocking. Whoever saw that, wrote it or knows more about this, please chime in. The thinking was that perhaps wider splits are more effective in spreading a front 7 out more and are better against the run, but smaller splits are more effective in pass / blitz coverage. We obviously can't telegraph what we're running based on the splits, but it is an intersting idea to think about. I did notice SDSU also had very small splits against us, and with a shotgun and short routes, we had a lot of trouble getting to the QB (they also had major issues running the ball).

 

The only argument against the split issue I can see is that yes, smaller splits might account for things getting bunched up, but you still need to blow your man out of space 3-4 yards downfield, and we haven't been able to do that consistently.

 

 

The gaps between the offensive line, have been greatly reduced based off the problems we had last year. It's great for blitz pick-up and pass protection, but costly for the RB's. Since the offensive line does not trap, pull, cut or misdirect, the holes are few and far between for a RB to find, given the straight forward finesse game we imploy. With this system for blocking, it requires a surge of at least 2-3 yards and then a pivot, to further space out the defenders.We obviously haven't done this so far. This finesse scheme works great in the NFL, but with a younger bunch of power-pushers, we lose the explosion necessary to push and pivot. Hence our back being tackled in the backfield. Now I'm not sure why we keep this style other than for pass-protection--which it seems to have improved Jimmy's time limit. Perhaps our guys have a hard time grasping pulling and cutting, trapping and misdirecting, I'm not sure. But they're at Notre Dame, so you'd think they be smart enough to handle it. Bottom line is, CW/Latina/Oliver, over-complicated the blocking scheme last year, and tried to simplify it this year by a straight ahead, hip-to-hip, blocking scheme, instead of just working on the problem.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Donjuan

[Kid Gloves]

I played college football and I played offensive line... The physical growth between your sophomore year and your junior year is incredible...the line is starting to show some chemistry and have done a nice job picking up the blitz...The one player who I would point to missing a few blocks that gave up sacks would be Wenger (51)...He looks a little slow footed and could be struggling the most in this group...

 

The running game is struggling because Hughes has no burst whatsoever, he is a musher, who needs to pound the ball 20-25 times a game... Armando is a nice change of pace back, who needs to be used in the screen/draw game more, but everyone on the field knows thats what is going to be called when he comes on the field...Aldridge has the best balance between those two skill sets, but he hasn't gotten much playing time and rumors of a recent DUI may lead to his dismissal...

 

The offensive line is a work in progress, but the progress thus far has been amazing, and Latina should be commended for his efforts not torn down after one mediocre game.

 

I have to disagree with this assessment and here is why. The idea that we have a "young and inexperienced" offensive line is just incorrect. They have decent experience and they all played last year. Furthermore, they have the size and strength to be a successful O-Line. They all came in as either 4 or 5 star kids. Now you can say, as you did above, that HS recruiting rankings don't mean crap, but they sure seem to pan out for USC, LSU, FLA, TEX, etc. I think it comes down to one thing and one thing only......COACHING! Right now we are a boring, predictable, vanilla offense and that all starts with the O-line coaching and CW's schemes. You can't tell me that our o-line didn't have the size, skill, and muscle to open up holes on the ground against SDSU, UM, and MSU. Those teams stopped us because they could easily see what the hell was coming! There is no imagination to the offense. There are no misdirection plays. Look at the one misdirection play we ran--the end around with Tate--it caught them off guard and it went for 24 yards. You can't expect to get anything going on the ground if you simply start the running back 8 yards back from the LOS and then run up the middle left and then the middle right. It is incredibly easy for any team to stop that kind of offensive attack.

 

The simple fact of the matter is this: ND is more talented than 10-11 of the teams we face this year. If that's the case, then why is it ok to only win 6 or 7 games??? We should win at least 9 games without batting an eye! The reason we continue to lose games to mediocre teams is elementary: COACHING! CW has done a phenomenal job at recruiting talented kids, but he has failed miserably in developing that talent. Of course we are a little better than last year--that happened simply because we have better talent. But it isn't happening because of coaching. It has been documented from former players and former coaches and people in the know with the program that CW has gone completely against the grain of past successful coaches in CFB. He thinks he can outsmart the college game and so far it has outsmarted him. I hope he can continue to learn from his mistakes and get this thing turned around, but right now I really don't see much hope of him doing so. In my opinion, CW is an NFL guy. Just like Pete is a college guy. Some guys are just made for different jobs.

[IrishGuy]

I have to disagree with this assessment and here is why. The idea that we have a "young and inexperienced" offensive line is just incorrect. They have decent experience and they all played last year. Furthermore, they have the size and strength to be a successful O-Line. They all came in as either 4 or 5 star kids. Now you can say, as you did above, that HS recruiting rankings don't mean crap, but they sure seem to pan out for USC, LSU, FLA, TEX, etc. I think it comes down to one thing and one thing only......COACHING! Right now we are a boring, predictable, vanilla offense and that all starts with the O-line coaching and CW's schemes. You can't tell me that our o-line didn't have the size, skill, and muscle to open up holes on the ground against SDSU, UM, and MSU. Those teams stopped us because they could easily see what the hell was coming! There is no imagination to the offense. There are no misdirection plays. Look at the one misdirection play we ran--the end around with Tate--it caught them off guard and it went for 24 yards. You can't expect to get anything going on the ground if you simply start the running back 8 yards back from the LOS and then run up the middle left and then the middle right. It is incredibly easy for any team to stop that kind of offensive attack.

 

The simple fact of the matter is this: ND is more talented than 10-11 of the teams we face this year. If that's the case, then why is it ok to only win 6 or 7 games??? We should win at least 9 games without batting an eye! The reason we continue to lose games to mediocre teams is elementary: COACHING! CW has done a phenomenal job at recruiting talented kids, but he has failed miserably in developing that talent. Of course we are a little better than last year--that happened simply because we have better talent. But it isn't happening because of coaching. It has been documented from former players and former coaches and people in the know with the program that CW has gone completely against the grain of past successful coaches in CFB. He thinks he can outsmart the college game and so far it has outsmarted him. I hope he can continue to learn from his mistakes and get this thing turned around, but right now I really don't see much hope of him doing so. In my opinion, CW is an NFL guy. Just like Pete is a college guy. Some guys are just made for different jobs.

 

 

Now that my friends.....is a post!

 

:clap::clap:

[BlackIrish42]

Now that my friends.....is a post!

 

:clap::clap:

 

yeah, it's a post alright. a bad one...

 

and inaccurate as well in that is repeats the frequently discredited notion (idiocy, IMO) that CW does not develop players. so, just to use one recent example, i guess golden tate was coached in secret by pete carroll? maybe urban liar? oh, wait i know! steve spurrier!

 

they are many more examples i could give of players development during CW's reign but these would fall on the seemingly deaf ears of CW haters and faux irish fans that disturbingly populate this board...

Edited September 23, 2008 by BlackIrish42

[ErickJD08]

I am not sure Weis is the problem, kinda. A head coach is not responsible for developing every single player on the field. I think its the positional coaches. And its the head coach's job to make sure the right positional coaches are in place. I like a ton of the positional coaches. Now if you look at Latina, he has a pretty impressive resume of producing good running teams in many teams. Its not like the guy doesn't know what he is doing to coach these kids. For some reason though, its not working right now.

 

I think Weis brings alot to the table. I think he recruits well, coaches QB's well, and draws up great plays. I absolutely hate that he gave up play calling. But that's beside the point.

 

The point is that everyone wants Latina's head but is that the problem. He has a great track record for OL. So what I wonder is if there is someone who knows alot about the OL position that can help draw some legit conclusions as to whether OL are not fast enough, strong enough, or are they missing their blocks, or confused, or using the wrong technique? IF, its not the OL's fault, maybe its the playcalling with misdirectional plays all.

[Guest ChuckDiesel]

Is it going to take a front line that is nothing but 5th year seniors in order to open up holes? There are 4 juniors and 1 senior starting. What more is there to say about it? You can say it's the scheme, the coaching, or even the players. The one thing that is obvious; the offensive line is under performing, and that may be an understatement.

[Kid Gloves]

yeah, it's a post alright. a bad one...

 

and inaccurate as well in that is repeats the frequently discredited notion (idiocy, IMO) that CW does not develop players. so, just to use one recent example, i guess golden tate was coached in secret by pete carroll? maybe urban liar? oh, wait i know! steve spurrier!

 

they are many more examples i could give of players development during CW's reign but these would fall on the seemingly deaf ears of CW haters and faux irish fans that disturbingly populate this board...

 

I just love how guys like you love to call anyone who criticizes CW as fake fans! That is pure comedy! Use your eyes! We have decent talent but we continue to under perform. You keep right on believing that it is a youth problem and that CW is doing a great job coaching this team.......I, on the other hand, will continue to focus on reality instead of some hopeful dream land that you apparently live in.

 

BTW, I believe it was posted on another thread that our O-line has a combined 60 starts between them. USC has 23. MSU has 46. SDSU 36. So Please stop saying its a youth problem. Pete and Dantonio sure seem to know how to develop running games.....

[will munny]

Oliver and Latina must have dirt on Weis. Their lines are terrible.

 

Getting whipped on both lines points to two problems. 1) Both line coaches which you've already pointed out and 2) The S&C coach isn't getting the job done. Weis needs to take care of these problems after this year and if he can't see it he'll be walking out the door with em in a couple years.