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Guest SirJohn

Know one knows at this point but this sure is a black eye on USC. Agents in the locker room, $500 Hotel room and an assitant coach knew about it. As they said lack of institunal control NCAA can then do something.

 

I got to thinking as HC Pete knew SOMETHING. And prior to the start of the season Stanfords coach Harbaugh said Pete would not be coming back 1908. Harbaugh has a friend on Petes Staff.

 

USC is not having a steller season wich is unusual. Something is going on internally with the football team IMO.

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Guest irishrick

true, this is really a black eye for the university , and coach carroll, i think that the NCAA needs to do SOMETHING , or other wise this type of behavior will continue, , i would think at least reduce the scholies , and remove them from post season for two years would help solve this problem . , but here we go the steriods issue in baseball, look what its doing to the game, i guess thats why you see a few players like jeter ,and this pedoria kid from the red sok go all out for every play in baseball. we need to do away from this crap and keep the playing fields LEVEL for all students of the game. what say you ? :)

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Guest fighton2007

I'm not here to defend Reggie Bush, because if he did take improper benefits (or his dad at least), then he is guilty of violating NCAA rules and deserves to be punished. However, I do think that most people who read this sensationalized story about USC need to understand a couple things:

 

a) the NCAA treats benefits from "agents" a lot differently than from "boosters". boosters help the program, whereas agents hurt the college program - WHY whould USC have wanted agents around Bush? they wanted Bush to stay, not leave for the riches of the NFL! the NCAA does distinguish boosters from agents... USC didn't benefit from Bush receiving benefits.

 

b) as far as "agents" around the locker room, it is not so simple. USC has people all over their "open-to-the public" practices, the locker room, etc. I have personally been in the locker room and it was because I was friends with a player. However, I do know for a fact that coaches, if they spot an agent (they know most of the big-time agents), they will kick that person out of practice or the locker room.

 

c) you cannot reasonably expect USC to know everything that goes on with the program. again, it is surprising what USC coaches do NOT know about their players, as I was friends w/ a lot of former players (nothing illegal, but i guarantee coaches would've been pretty angry if they found out what some of the players did). the "car" that Reggie Bush drove was nothing spectacular - especially at USC.

 

d) these two "sports marketers" - they are ex-cons and thugs. they have been purposely funneling information to Yahoo to a) extort the Bushes for money, and b) to try to increase their settlement amount. From what people around the program are telling me, Reggie Bush's greedy dad (the guy who announced Reggie was going pro during the UCLA game) tried to create his own sports agency. Lake and Michaels were brought in to provide some of the business capital. I think Michaels' attorney confirmed this as well (not sure).

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Guest IrishCPA
I'm not here to defend Reggie Bush, because if he did take improper benefits (or his dad at least), then he is guilty of violating NCAA rules and deserves to be punished. However, I do think that most people who read this sensationalized story about USC need to understand a couple things:

 

a) the NCAA treats benefits from "agents" a lot differently than from "boosters". boosters help the program, whereas agents hurt the college program - WHY whould USC have wanted agents around Bush? they wanted Bush to stay, not leave for the riches of the NFL! the NCAA does distinguish boosters from agents... USC didn't benefit from Bush receiving benefits.

 

b) as far as "agents" around the locker room, it is not so simple. USC has people all over their "open-to-the public" practices, the locker room, etc. I have personally been in the locker room and it was because I was friends with a player. However, I do know for a fact that coaches, if they spot an agent (they know most of the big-time agents), they will kick that person out of practice or the locker room.

 

c) you cannot reasonably expect USC to know everything that goes on with the program. again, it is surprising what USC coaches do NOT know about their players, as I was friends w/ a lot of former players (nothing illegal, but i guarantee coaches would've been pretty angry if they found out what some of the players did). the "car" that Reggie Bush drove was nothing spectacular - especially at USC.

 

d) these two "sports marketers" - they are ex-cons and thugs. they have been purposely funneling information to Yahoo to a) extort the Bushes for money, and b) to try to increase their settlement amount. From what people around the program are telling me, Reggie Bush's greedy dad (the guy who announced Reggie was going pro during the UCLA game) tried to create his own sports agency. Lake and Michaels were brought in to provide some of the business capital. I think Michaels' attorney confirmed this as well (not sure).

 

And I thought Domers were a bunch of homers that looked at things through rose colored glasses. You cracked me up.

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Guest fighton2007

And I thought Domers were a bunch of homers that looked at things through rose colored glasses. You cracked me up.

 

So tell me how my arguments are flawed?

 

I'm not denying the benefits, but I am denying this rush of judgment that the university is "corrupt" or "cheating" when USC did not benefit at all. These are not boosters (Oklahoma, etc..) - they are agents who, if anything, eliminated any chance that USC had of having REggie Bush come back for his senior year.

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Here's one major flaw. It's reasonable to think or assume that what a walk-on does on his own time, is his own business and hence coaches not paying attention to him. However; it is rediculous to assume that USC had no idea about their biggest star. You want me to believe that if Brady Quinn was living in a 500,000 dollar house, and his dad was a janitor/security guard at a highschool, and all of this after he reached stardom at Notre Dame? "So I had no idea that he was doing these things" argument is a load of Sh*t!! Come on fighton, you know there is no way everyone on this staff knew nothing. That is very unreasonable to expect anyone to believe that. Which will force the NCAA to file charges against USC. You heard it here folks, this will not end well for the condoms. Institutional control was not enforced here and will lead to punishment from the NCAA. So, there's the flaw. It's a pretty big flaw, one could say it's the "ship-sinker". What more do you need? :!: -Don

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Guest IrishCPA

 

So tell me how my arguments are flawed?

 

I'm not denying the benefits, but I am denying this rush of judgment that the university is "corrupt" or "cheating" when USC did not benefit at all. These are not boosters (Oklahoma, etc..) - they are agents who, if anything, eliminated any chance that USC had of having REggie Bush come back for his senior year.

 

It may have not helped them with Reggie Bush, but it helped them with all of the recruits that saw the agents hanging out in the locker room and seeing how easy it was to get paid (under the table) and possibly get to the NFL, so it might not have helped them with Reggie, but it sure as hell probably helped them land some other star players that saw the cash and possible NFL connections that every recruit wants.

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Guest SirJohn

I have to agree with donjuan Righton. No disrespect as the coaches should know and it falls on them.

 

Let's do keep the debate civil.

 

My post on the situation accused no one. But all these incidents are not healthy for the USC program. Called lack of institutional control. Pete does run a very loose program.

 

With all this looming investigation, Pete would be on the hot seat coupled with the Harbaugh statement he is not coming back next year.

 

Yes, the agent may be a thug. But the first rule is don't deal with thugs. They seem to have valid paper trail.

 

If a player doesn't come from a rich background and suddenly has sharp clothes perhaps a Rolex watch, all those electronic games and a new car in the parking lot this falls on the coaches if it is all ignored.

 

I am not saying he had any of that but a big house for his parents he visited often? Mom, Dad where did you get the money for all of this is a question I would ask a parent.

 

I am leading up to the fact in recruiting Bush the coaches and Head coach visited his home and can judge exactly what income background the kid comes from. If that changes dramatically in the season then alarm bells should have gone off with the coaches early on.

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Yeah fighton, no disrespect against all you "SoCal's". I just think the NCAA has ran out of cheeks to turn! But I wouldn't put all of you under the bus! Clean up, get up, accept USC"s sanctions, and prepare for us next season!! Hopefully you'll have to prepare for us!! :wink: -tDon

(BTW, I've officially changed my sign-off from "Don", to "the Don"!!)

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Guest fighton2007
Here's one major flaw. It's reasonable to think or assume that what a walk-on does on his own time, is his own business and hence coaches not paying attention to him. However; it is rediculous to assume that USC had no idea about their biggest star. You want me to believe that if Brady Quinn was living in a 500,000 dollar house, and his dad was a janitor/security guard at a highschool, and all of this after he reached stardom at Notre Dame? "So I had no idea that he was doing these things" argument is a load of Sh*t!! Come on fighton, you know there is no way everyone on this staff knew nothing. That is very unreasonable to expect anyone to believe that. Which will force the NCAA to file charges against USC. You heard it here folks, this will not end well for the condoms. Institutional control was not enforced here and will lead to punishment from the NCAA. So, there's the flaw. It's a pretty big flaw, one could say it's the "ship-sinker". What more do you need? :!: -Don

 

Coaches knew where Reggie Bush lived. He lived in an apartment right on campus. He biked to practice, but also drove a '96 Chevy Impala (this was the piece of crap car that allegedly was bought using agent's money). That is what the coaches saw and knew about.

 

Now, do you think the coaches are going to get up, and drive 2 hours down to San Diego to check out where Reggie's parents are living? Even if they see a new house which wasnt that big ($500,000 in Southern california won't buy you much), do you think they're going to demand the Bushes to show them the deed to their house or their loan agreement (especially during a time when interest and mortgage rates are as low as ever)? And what about the possibility that they were renting the place?

 

There's "institutional control" and then there's unrealistic expectations. Should Notre Dame have people going down to where Jimmy Claussen's family lives and check the deed to their house? What about Armando Allen's family?

 

As far as "agents" around the USC program. Do you know how many people attend USC practices? Literally, there are 200-500 people on the sidelines of every USC practice. And any player can bring a friend into the locker room. Yes, this may be a lack of institutional control, but it may also be a generous opportunity by the USC coaching stafff to allow fans and youths to attend practice and watch their favorite players play....

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Here's the point. You can compare non-comparable athletes all you want. Living 2 hours away is a lot closer than across the continent. Also, if you read any articles on this matter, it was well documentated where Bush's family lived, way before the Yahoo articles. The neighbors used to leave stuff in his lawn after a great performance. Local newspapers wrote about this and sited the location, which was a nice area of town. Any subdivision in California is a nice place to live. And then to go from an apartment to renting a 500,000 "cheap or what some people call normally priced" house is a hell of a climb. We all can paint this however we want. But the truth is in the papers! How can anyone refute them? I suggest you read the investigation reports (which you can find on Yahoo) and look at the dates of some of these articles. Barbeques with the neighbors, parties with the rich and famous were all written about, check them out. They all were written before these "allegations" came out. It's hard to believe that Petey didn't read the papers or listen to the rumblings via the internet. Anyways, who cares? Everything will come out and that will be it! -tDon

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Guest NDLawJAG
I'm not here to defend Reggie Bush, because if he did take improper benefits (or his dad at least), then he is guilty of violating NCAA rules and deserves to be punished. However, I do think that most people who read this sensationalized story about USC need to understand a couple things:

 

a) the NCAA treats benefits from "agents" a lot differently than from "boosters". boosters help the program, whereas agents hurt the college program - WHY whould USC have wanted agents around Bush? they wanted Bush to stay, not leave for the riches of the NFL! the NCAA does distinguish boosters from agents... USC didn't benefit from Bush receiving benefits.

 

b) as far as "agents" around the locker room, it is not so simple. USC has people all over their "open-to-the public" practices, the locker room, etc. I have personally been in the locker room and it was because I was friends with a player. However, I do know for a fact that coaches, if they spot an agent (they know most of the big-time agents), they will kick that person out of practice or the locker room.

 

c) you cannot reasonably expect USC to know everything that goes on with the program. again, it is surprising what USC coaches do NOT know about their players, as I was friends w/ a lot of former players (nothing illegal, but i guarantee coaches would've been pretty angry if they found out what some of the players did). the "car" that Reggie Bush drove was nothing spectacular - especially at USC.

 

d) these two "sports marketers" - they are ex-cons and thugs. they have been purposely funneling information to Yahoo to a) extort the Bushes for money, and b) to try to increase their settlement amount. From what people around the program are telling me, Reggie Bush's greedy dad (the guy who announced Reggie was going pro during the UCLA game) tried to create his own sports agency. Lake and Michaels were brought in to provide some of the business capital. I think Michaels' attorney confirmed this as well (not sure).

 

Fighton, for purposes of this discussion, I'll assume everything you sad is true. I think that it clearly establishes a case of lack of institutional control. The fact that SC makes it so easy for boosters, agents, and celebrities to gain access to SC players shows that they do not have reasonable controls in place. Most universities (ie reasonable universities)restrict this sort of access. The case you laid out would seem worse for SC than they did everything in thier power to limit this sort of stuff but it happened behind thier back.

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Guest fighton2007
Here's the point. You can compare non-comparable athletes all you want. Living 2 hours away is a lot closer than across the continent. Also, if you read any articles on this matter, it was well documentated where Bush's family lived, way before the Yahoo articles. The neighbors used to leave stuff in his lawn after a great performance. Local newspapers wrote about this and sited the location, which was a nice area of town. Any subdivision in California is a nice place to live. And then to go from an apartment to renting a 500,000 "cheap or what some people call normally priced" house is a hell of a climb. We all can paint this however we want. But the truth is in the papers! How can anyone refute them? I suggest you read the investigation reports (which you can find on Yahoo) and look at the dates of some of these articles. Barbeques with the neighbors, parties with the rich and famous were all written about, check them out. They all were written before these "allegations" came out. It's hard to believe that Petey didn't read the papers or listen to the rumblings via the internet. Anyways, who cares? Everything will come out and that will be it! -tDon

 

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say... Yes, Reggie Bush attended many parties w/ celebrities when he was at USC. That's not an NCAA violation.

 

If you have articles stating that Bush's parents, not him, were having extravagant parties, then please link them because I have never heard about it.

 

I'm trying to emphasize two things:

 

1. It's extremely hard to keep tabs on a player's family, especially if they live far away (and yes, San Diego is far from LA). SC was loaded with superstars, from Leinart, LenDale White, Jarrett, Ellis, etc... Right now, you cannot expect that ND knows exactly what is going on w/ the families of players who don't live close by.

 

2. Many people can take out loans, especially if they have future income coming in soon. Lebron's mom took out a loan for 80k to buy him a Hummer before he even graduated high school. Assuming that Bush's parents took out loans to pay for rent or for airline tickets is more than reasonable. SC cannot just, on a whim, go up to a player's parents and question their finances.

Would you be offended if someone came up to you and questioned the means for how you were able to afford housing? "Hey Lamar, I know you're making very little b/c you're a security guard at a high school, so I want to see the deed to the house, your lease agreement, and your personal checking account to see if you're taking benefits from someone." This is not Reggie sporting a 10k Rolex to practice, or him carrying around wads of $100 bills.

 

 

Another point that I wanted to emphasize is that the best thing that Pete Carroll has done to the USC program is make it fan friendly. Practices are open to the public so that anybody can come by and watch the team. Locker rooms are open to guests of any player. There is no way that USC can police the 200-500 visitors to USC practices. Yes, this may make SC susceptible to agents (which, as i emphasized earlier, HURTS the program more than it helps) but it also allows fans like me, high school and elementary students, and all other types of fans to be closer to the program. I've heard many college football fans frustrated that they cant watch their own team practice etc... this is a tradeoff that PC makes. And yes, before I go to every practice, there usually is someone there to take my name and ask if I am an agent or affiliated w/ an agent (or if I am a scout from another school).

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It wasn't a $500,000 house it was a $780,000 house, and i was stationed in san diego and i've been to south east san diego where reggie always shouts out after every TD. And believe me there is a big difference from where there he lived then and from where his parents lived during his last two years at U$C.

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One more thing, PAC 10 teams are raising the biggest questions over this, not ND. People have been saying for many years now that PC runs a very loose program. The first time I heard this was from UCLA fans. You would think that PC being under the microscope would be more cautious. I understand that PC cant go down to San Diego to inspect the Bush family living conditions but this might just be the tip of the iceberg. SC seems to be making the news a lot lately for all the wrong reasons. They are starting to remind me of UNLV basketball under Tarkanian, a lot of smoke that everyone ignored, then it all exploded. We'll have to wait and see.

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Guest SirJohn

OK in this article below.

 

Bush has all these clothes he tries on for 30 minutes to look right and all this is prior to his signing. Says when he was younger he had not many clothes as well. Where did the money come from for so many outfits let alone three piece suits?

 

His parents did live in an apartment before moving to the posh house. Other articles mention parties at the home with celebrities attending.

 

Indeed as you said Bush lived in his own two bedroom apartment off campus. I don't know about LA apartment prices but in Kentucky a one bedroom apartment will cost you over $700.00 a month. I have to presume that USC had Bush's home address for records sake. I can't imagine LA prices for a two bedroom apartment

 

It does say his step dad took out a $6,000,000 dollar life/injury insurance on Bush prior to the season. SIX MILLION DOLLARS. I just pulled out my AARP life insurance policy and for just $15,000 dollars it costs me $39.19 a month.

 

I can't imagine what a six million dollar policy costs per month and how Griffen could afford that.

 

I know according to your view he lived apart and away from his parents in that two bed room apartment. But it does say he went there to their home on Thanksgivings. Again shouldn't Bush wonder "Mom and Dad how can you afford all this? That's still wondering how he got all those clothes and could afford a two bedroom apartment on his own.

 

After a practice and a shower he must change into expensive snazzy outfits in the locker room correct? He cares about how he looks. No alarm bells from that to the USC coaching staff. That's turning your head away or an ostrich burring it's head in the sand as long as you win a game.

 

You say USC did not benifit. Yes they did. They were winning and crushing all teams as long as Bush was on the field playing, that's one BIG benifit with the winning of the NC.

 

If it were "loans" for house, a two bedroom apartment, $6,000,00 insurance on Reggie, cothes etc. produce the loan records and hate to say it but how did you make the loan company payments monthly?

 

As I understand it Reggie cannot be charged with a criminal offense. It all falls on the USC program by NCAA after these civil suits are settled.

 

By allowing this to go on Reggie :censored: USC. The buck stops with Pete. Reggie can only lose the Heismen and a bunch of his money and he cheated and has plenty of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/college_football/20051208-9999-1s8reggie.html

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Guest fighton2007

Talk about miscontruing the article... Hmm.. where do I start? I'll take it sentence by sentence...

 

 

"Bush has all these clothes he tries on for 30 minutes to look right and all this is prior to his signing. Says when he was younger he had not many clothes as well. Where did the money come from for so many outfits let alone three piece suits?"

 

- I think the entire point of this is that it takes Reggie a long time to get dressed b/c he wants to look perfect. In high school, he was doing the same thing according to the article. And you're inferring that he's always wearing 3-piece suits, whereas the reference is only to the Heisman ceremony. And even if Reggie was poor, "poor" people have plenty of clothes as well. Reggie wore what normal college students wear - haha, the guy wasn't changing into Armani suits after practice.

 

 

"His parents did live in an apartment before moving to the posh house. Other articles mention parties at the home with celebrities attending."

 

- Again, this is the first time I've heard about parties at his family's house, and am waiting for a link. I know that he went out to a lot of Hollywood parties, as do a lot of other players.

 

 

"Indeed as you said Bush lived in his own two bedroom apartment off campus. I don't know about LA apartment prices but in Kentucky a one bedroom apartment will cost you over $700.00 a month. I have to presume that USC had Bush's home address for records sake. I can't imagine LA prices for a two bedroom apartment."

 

- Reggie lived in a 2 bedroom apartment w/ his roommate Thomas Williams. Every player gets about $700 a month for housing, so $1400 for a 2-bedroom apartment is not anything out of the ordinary.

 

 

"It does say his step dad took out a $6,000,000 dollar life/injury insurance on Bush prior to the season. SIX MILLION DOLLARS. I just pulled out my AARP life insurance policy and for just $15,000 dollars it costs me $39.19 a month.

I can't imagine what a six million dollar policy costs per month and how Griffen could afford that."

 

- These types of policies are a lot different than normal life insurance policies. The payment structures are significantly different. Every major athlete in college has these types of policies even if they are poor.

 

 

"I know according to your view he lived apart and away from his parents in that two bed room apartment. But it does say he went there to their home on Thanksgivings. Again shouldn't Bush wonder "Mom and Dad how can you afford all this? That's still wondering how he got all those clothes and could afford a two bedroom apartment on his own."

 

- I've never said that Reggie didn't know about the benefits. He most likely knew, and maybe his parents lied to him and maybe not. Again, my points of emphasis center around the fact that coaches would not have known what was going on 150 miles from campus.

 

 

"You say USC did not benifit. Yes they did. They were winning and crushing all teams as long as Bush was on the field playing, that's one BIG benifit with the winning of the NC. "

 

- Again, even if Bush's family did not take the benefits, Bush would still be on the field, playing. The money didn't convince him to come to SC, it didn't make him play any better, etc... (if anything, it convinced him not to come back for his senior year). The benefits were given by an ex-con wanna-be agent (who had no previous clients) to Bush's scumbag father (the same guy who proclaimed that Bush was going pro even before Bush announced) in an effort to start up a new sports agency.

That is the difference between AGENTS vs. BOOSTERS. Booster convince players to come play for a school, to make the player comfortable so that they wont entertain leaving school after their redshirt sophomore or their juniro years. AGENTS, who are despised by coaches, convince players to leave school early. Oklahoma this year, Michigan-Chris Webber scandal, Alabama - these were all BOOSTERS.

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