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I would be more understanding of the OP's contention if the rest of the top 10 teams are hauling in stable career starters at the QB positional regularly. Bama is absolutely smashing people with 3* QBs because they are so deep in the trenches on both sides of the ball. 

Granted UND has underperformed on the recruiting and development of that position which is probably the only consistent weakness coach has over his career.. We saw him as a QB guru for what he did at Cincinnati before coming here. 

Last year UND was a Will Fuller or Golden Tate away from being competitive with Bama and winning a playoff game. It's not Brian Kelly's strong suit, and it never will be as he (seemingly) only has a few years left. 

Let's hope Tommy can coach these kids up and pick up some slack where BK left off. 

 

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On 8/17/2021 at 1:37 PM, NDLincPark said:

The last 10+ Years, the biggest problem with the team has been the QB. 

Book, Wimbush, Kizer, Zaire, Golson, Reese, Crist

An overall Abysmal List. 

They had 3 Years to sell a recruit.  Come, be a true freshman, or come last year and redshirt, and then come into 2021 and be the undisputed 3 to 4 year leader for NOTRE DAME

And what are they rolling into 2021 with?  A top 10 team, with a 5th year QB transfer, who lost his job 2 years ago in Wisco,  was a 3 star recruit, and has no future with the program.

Awful planning and execution. 

 

Coan never should have been the 2021 plan. 

Embarrassing that he was

After the FSU game, the ND Lemmings were lauding him and gushing over his performance.  Yikes. 

 

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Recruiting or development, things just haven't worked out for us. 

We have taken some 3 star guys and made them highly productive (over their assumed ceilings) like Book and Kizer.

But if you're an elite blue chipper, chances are you'll want to go to a football factory over playing school. It's just reality. 

In short, the planets will have to align for us. And they just haven't. OSU, Bama, Clemson, etc. will continue to ink the best on a consistent basis.

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3 hours ago, OKelleyIrish said:

Recruiting or development, things just haven't worked out for us. 

We have taken some 3 star guys and made them highly productive (over their assumed ceilings) like Book and Kizer.

But if you're an elite blue chipper, chances are you'll want to go to a football factory over playing school. It's just reality. 

In short, the planets will have to align for us. And they just haven't. OSU, Bama, Clemson, etc. will continue to ink the best on a consistent basis.

5* QBs want to play for coaches who will get them drafted in the first round

In 12 years, all Kelly has to show is a 2nd round and 4th round pick and something like 18 total games played by his ND QBs in the NFL. 

 

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52 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

5* QBs want to play for coaches who will get them drafted in the first round

In 12 years, all Kelly has to show is a 2nd round and 4th round pick and something like 18 total games played by his ND QBs in the NFL. 

It's more than that. It's start with our academic requirements. Most blue chip guys with visions of the NFL will take the most immediate and shortest path. That's a football factory. Add in climate which isn't attractive to a lot of SE and WC guys. The pond that we throw our line in, is just much much smaller.

We'll either need to luck out and develop a non-top ten guy, or luck out and get a top 10 guy that has MW, IN, Catholic, or family ties. But like I said, it will just require several planets to align. 

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22 minutes ago, OKelleyIrish said:

It's more than that. It's start with our academic requirements. Most blue chip guys with visions of the NFL will take the most immediate and shortest path. That's a football factory. Add in climate which isn't attractive to a lot of SE and WC guys. The pond that we throw our line in, is just much much smaller.

We'll either need to luck out and develop a non-top ten guy, or luck out and get a top 10 guy that has MW, IN, Catholic, or family ties. But like I said, it will just require several planets to align. 

Glad i'm not the only that takes this viewpoint. Every time I mention academics, all I hear  is how I'm making excuses. 

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10 minutes ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

Glad i'm not the only that takes this viewpoint. Every time I mention academics, all I hear  is how I'm making excuses. 

I hate having to say it, but it's reality. Our fishing pond is a like smaller.

Holtz was able to squeeze some kids under the radar, but the admin has not interest in making exceptions these days.

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12 minutes ago, OKelleyIrish said:

I hate having to say it, but it's reality. Our fishing pond is a like smaller.

Holtz was able to squeeze some kids under the radar, but the admin has not interest in making exceptions these days.

Elston or Polian said himself that only about 50 of the top 100 will pass admissions and those 50 are all over the nation. That's why I can't get mad when it takes ND a year out of every four to rebuild. 2 out of 4 ND is either 9-10 win good or 10-11 very good and 1 out of 4 their is a title shot. But I think the year the QB graduates will always be hard.

 

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1 hour ago, OKelleyIrish said:

It's more than that. It's start with our academic requirements. Most blue chip guys with visions of the NFL will take the most immediate and shortest path. That's a football factory. Add in climate which isn't attractive to a lot of SE and WC guys. The pond that we throw our line in, is just much much smaller.

We'll either need to luck out and develop a non-top ten guy, or luck out and get a top 10 guy that has MW, IN, Catholic, or family ties. But like I said, it will just require several planets to align. 

And then still have to contend with Michigan and Ohio State for their services.

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1 hour ago, FaithInIrishForever said:

Elston or Polian said himself that only about 50 of the top 100 will pass admissions and those 50 are all over the nation. That's why I can't get mad when it takes ND a year out of every four to rebuild. 2 out of 4 ND is either 9-10 win good or 10-11 very good and 1 out of 4 their is a title shot. But I think the year the QB graduates will always be hard.

Yup. I think it's probably even less than 50/50 to be honest lol. ND does a lot better getting on kids early and communicating the requirements these days, but it also probably scares some off early lol..

Not quite sure how the new transfer portal world is going to impact us long term. Same with NIL. 

50 minutes ago, NYGoldenDomer said:

And then still have to contend with Michigan and Ohio State for their services.

Not too worried about scUM these days, but yes OSU will always be a challenge.

ND is hitting the SE hard, and frankly I'll take all the kids from GA, FL, etc. they can get. 

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Posted (edited)

LOL at the legacy, unable to think critically,  entrenched ND super-fans.  

'Our academics are too rigorous, and scare away good QBs'

They don't scare away other position groups, so why cant they get an athletic, intelligent, upside QB?

You elitist have the school on some imaginary pedestal, and no one else fucking cares. 

OSU has a worse NFL QB track record, and they bring in smart, athletic, 5 star guys every single year. 

Im sure Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence,  Fields, Ewers,  Barrett, Herbert, (And on and on and on)  were all too stupid for ND. The must have been 'scared' haha

Even players like McSorley, Grier, Ehlinger, Mond, Rosen, Dak - Would all have been more than capable, and way better than what ND has recruited. 

Using the academics as an excuse is pathetic.  ND isn't even that hard of a school once you get there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by NDLincPark
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17 hours ago, OKelleyIrish said:

It's more than that. It's start with our academic requirements. Most blue chip guys with visions of the NFL will take the most immediate and shortest path. That's a football factory. Add in climate which isn't attractive to a lot of SE and WC guys. The pond that we throw our line in, is just much much smaller.

We'll either need to luck out and develop a non-top ten guy, or luck out and get a top 10 guy that has MW, IN, Catholic, or family ties. But like I said, it will just require several planets to align. 

People used to say that academics / weather / girls / etc. prevented ND from getting elite prospects on the DL. It's funny how putting a bunch of DL into the NFL in the last few years now has ND with high 4* and 5* DL in the 2023 class. 

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11 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

People used to say that academics / weather / girls / etc. prevented ND from getting elite prospects on the DL. It's funny how putting a bunch of DL into the NFL in the last few years now has ND with high 4* and 5* DL in the 2023 class. 

We rarely get top 10 at position kids that aren't OL or TE.

We do get a few now and then, but there's normally a reason, or a tie of some sort. 

And 2023 ratings are early ratings. Hope they don't change, but they often do. Those kids 2 years away.

If you look individually at the top guys we have from 2023......

  • Vernon 
    • Honor roll student from Mentor, which is one of the better HS's in Ohio and known for excellent academics. 
    • 247 has him as a 93 (mid 4), Rivals 6 (high 4), ESPN an 86. None have him as a 5 star, but he's a 5 star composite because all 3 services have him comfortably in the 4 star area. 
    • He's a MW kid, who is not afraid of weather. Mentor on the water, similar to SB.
  • Keeley
    • Keeley was actually looking for academics, and come from an affluent and highly regarded prep school in SW FL, that is also Episcopal. Pretty sure he's also honor roll.
    • His grades are lower from all 3 services but are consistent enough to keep him as a strong 4. 

So in short, both super smart kids from two good schools. One that comes from identical weather, one from a Christian prep.

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On 10/6/2021 at 10:12 PM, NYGoldenDomer said:

And then still have to contend with Michigan and Ohio State for their services.

Poor ND must be the only college in the country that has other colleges, a few hundred miles away, who also play/recruit football players. 

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4 hours ago, NDLincPark said:

lol reading this thread is so pathetic. 
 

here are the excuses. 
 

the AD

the academics 

other schools also recruit

the weather (my favorite )

their religion 


lololol   

 

So you're saying the fact that 50+% of the top 100 prospects wouldn't even qualify academically for ND, has no bearing?

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4 hours ago, NDLincPark said:

lol reading this thread is so pathetic. 
 

here are the excuses. 
 

the AD

the academics 

other schools also recruit

the weather (my favorite )

their religion 


lololol   

 

 

 

I will say in the field I’m in, we have had many football players through my career on the job. We have discussed weather being a factor on some occasions on why they didn’t want to go there. I’m not saying that is the reason for all recruits. But it does happen. 

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On 10/7/2021 at 10:09 AM, NDLincPark said:

LOL at the legacy, unable to think critically,  entrenched ND super-fans.  

'Our academics are too rigorous, and scare away good QBs'

They don't scare away other position groups, so why cant they get an athletic, intelligent, upside QB?

You elitist have the school on some imaginary pedestal, and no one else fucking cares. 

OSU has a worse NFL QB track record, and they bring in smart, athletic, 5 star guys every single year. 

Im sure Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence,  Fields, Ewers,  Barrett, Herbert, (And on and on and on)  were all too stupid for ND. The must have been 'scared' haha

Even players like McSorley, Grier, Ehlinger, Mond, Rosen, Dak - Would all have been more than capable, and way better than what ND has recruited. 

Using the academics as an excuse is pathetic.  ND isn't even that hard of a school once you get there. 

On 10/9/2021 at 8:27 AM, NDLincPark said:

Poor ND must be the only college in the country that has other colleges, a few hundred miles away, who also play/recruit football players. 

On 10/9/2021 at 8:30 AM, NDLincPark said:

lol reading this thread is so pathetic. 

here are the excuses. 

the AD

the academics 

other schools also recruit

the weather (my favorite )

their religion 
lololol   

Dude you use the enter key way too much, troll.

white teeth troll GIF

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On 10/7/2021 at 3:07 PM, OKelleyIrish said:

We rarely get top 10 at position kids that aren't OL or TE.

We do get a few now and then, but there's normally a reason, or a tie of some sort. 

And 2023 ratings are early ratings. Hope they don't change, but they often do. Those kids 2 years away.

If you look individually at the top guys we have from 2023......

  • Vernon 
    • Honor roll student from Mentor, which is one of the better HS's in Ohio and known for excellent academics. 
    • 247 has him as a 93 (mid 4), Rivals 6 (high 4), ESPN an 86. None have him as a 5 star, but he's a 5 star composite because all 3 services have him comfortably in the 4 star area. 
    • He's a MW kid, who is not afraid of weather. Mentor on the water, similar to SB.
  • Keeley
    • Keeley was actually looking for academics, and come from an affluent and highly regarded prep school in SW FL, that is also Episcopal. Pretty sure he's also honor roll.
    • His grades are lower from all 3 services but are consistent enough to keep him as a strong 4. 

So in short, both super smart kids from two good schools. One that comes from identical weather, one from a Christian prep.

So it appears from your detailed analysis above that you are saying that the recent run of Irish DL getting drafted has had no impact on DL recruiting. Is that correct?

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2 hours ago, jbrown_9999 said:

So it appears from your detailed analysis above that you are saying that the recent run of Irish DL getting drafted has had no impact on DL recruiting. Is that correct?

No, not at all. 

There are all kinds of factors. Draft success always helps. But it has no bearing on the half of the pond we can't even begin to recruit. And we've had draft success before that hasn't helped a lot. Freeman is definitely an upgrade as a recruiter as well. 

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13 minutes ago, OKelleyIrish said:

No, not at all. 

There are all kinds of factors. Draft success always helps. But it has no bearing on the half of the pond we can't even begin to recruit. And we've had draft success before that hasn't helped a lot. Freeman is definitely an upgrade as a recruiter as well. 

I believe that you can divide the Top 100 recruits into three groups:

1) Traditional ND "right kind of guys" who fit the "profile"

2) Recruits that can never get into ND due to compromised academics or character

3) Elite recruits who can get into ND but might not have ND on their radar screen. I believe that an important criteria for elite recruits is a coach's ability to turn them into a high pick.

After his first few years, Kelly seemed to downshift and he stopped going after group #3 and limited himself to group #1. This is when Kelly started being satisfied with Top 15 classes. He also started talking about limited aisles in which ND could "shop", etc. probably to rationalize his lower expectations/results. At this point, I think folks started to buy into the narrative that ND could only land group #1 and that both groups #2 and #3 were out of reach. 

In reality, group #3 recruits were possible (Holtz, Weis, and even early-Kelly) but they required extra effort and non-stop competing vs. other top recruiting coaches. 

Kelly seemed to realize that to win a CFP game, he needed to raise his sights above Top 15 classes and shoot for Top 5 ones. Freeman also seems to have "convinced" Kelly that ND can actually go after group #3 as well as group #1. Success also breeds success. The reason that ND has recruited positions like OL and TE well is due in a large part to the success that ND had in putting those positions into the NFL. Now that DL has seen some recent success as well (I believe 4 DE drafted in last two drafts), you are seeing ND have success with DL, especially DE.

QB recruiting lags other CFP level schools since Kelly has had the least success in developing QBs for the NFL. In 12 years, his QBs have played in a total of 18 NFL games without any distinction. Only two of them have been drafted (2nd and 4th round). This pales to recent the QB success of other CFP teams. Unfortunately, it does not look like this season will see Kelly elevate his QB development resume.

You can also look at other schools (Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, etc.) to see that their QB recruiting improved after they evolved their offensive systems and their QBs started having greater success. For some reason, Kelly has been slow to embrace a similar approach.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

I believe that you can divide the Top 100 recruits into three groups:

1) Traditional ND "right kind of guys" who fit the "profile"

2) Recruits that can never get into ND due to compromised academics or character

3) Elite recruits who can get into ND but might not have ND on their radar screen. I believe that an important criteria for elite recruits is a coach's ability to turn them into a high pick.

After his first few years, Kelly seemed to downshift and he stopped going after group #3 and limited himself to group #1. This is when Kelly started being satisfied with Top 15 classes. He also started talking about limited aisles in which ND could "shop", etc. probably to rationalize his lower expectations/results. At this point, I think folks started to buy into the narrative that ND could only land group #1 and that both groups #2 and #3 were out of reach. 

In reality, group #3 recruits were possible (Holtz, Weis, and even early-Kelly) but they required extra effort and non-stop competing vs. other top recruiting coaches. 

Kelly seemed to realize that to win a CFP game, he needed to raise his sights above Top 15 classes and shoot for Top 5 ones. Freeman also seems to have "convinced" Kelly that ND can actually go after group #3 as well as group #1. Success also breeds success. The reason that ND has recruited positions like OL and TE well is due in a large part to the success that ND had in putting those positions into the NFL. Now that DL has seen some recent success as well (I believe 4 DE drafted in last two drafts), you are seeing ND have success with DL, especially DE.

QB recruiting lags other CFP level schools since Kelly has had the least success in developing QBs for the NFL. In 12 years, his QBs have played in a total of 18 NFL games without any distinction. Only two of them have been drafted (2nd and 4th round). This pales to recent the QB success of other CFP teams. Unfortunately, it does not look like this season will see Kelly elevate his QB development resume.

You can also look at other schools (Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma, etc.) to see that their QB recruiting improved after they evolved their offensive systems and their QBs started having greater success. For some reason, Kelly has been slow to embrace a similar approach

Agree for the most part. I'd subtract 50% off the top 100 though from the start.  Then from that half, I'd say you have a good portion of those kids that don't want to play school. The entire 50% is in play, probably only half of that 50% (25% overall) is really a ND type of kid or would entertain ND.

I live in the SE and ND hits it hard, really hard. They've had some decent luck (I've been surprised), but most of the kids are just never ever going to seriously consider ND. They've had their best luck in well to do areas and private type schools around me. I know a few parents loosely that had kids recruited by ND. Both good families with good parents who brought up good kids. But both the parents and kids just really never gave ND a chance despite ND's best effort. Folks laugh at things like distance and weather, but it really is a thing. And when a family has an option of football factory (who also has good academic programs) within a 4 hour drive, it can just be very hard to overcome.

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On 10/6/2021 at 7:52 PM, OKelleyIrish said:

It's more than that. It's start with our academic requirements. Most blue chip guys with visions of the NFL will take the most immediate and shortest path. That's a football factory. Add in climate which isn't attractive to a lot of SE and WC guys. The pond that we throw our line in, is just much much smaller.

We'll either need to luck out and develop a non-top ten guy, or luck out and get a top 10 guy that has MW, IN, Catholic, or family ties. But like I said, it will just require several planets to align. 

I wonder if ND would take Spencer Rattler when he enters the transfer portal. ND recruited him. I don’t think he’ll be long for OU. Looks like OU is going to be starting the freshman. 

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1 hour ago, AnTostal said:

I wonder if ND would take Spencer Rattler when he enters the transfer portal. ND recruited him. I don’t think he’ll be long for OU. Looks like OU is going to be starting the freshman. 

I’d bet Rattler goes to the Draft. Maybe his grade will be so bad that he has to play another year somewhere, but I’d still bet draft. 

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