2023 Recruiting Prospects

[4thand1 172]

I don't think Rees/Kelly prefer a ball control offense.  Would you have a pass first offense with the receivers they are going to send out there this season??? I wouldn't.  

[coltssb 908]

3 hours ago, irishwavend said:

Book was a poor man's Jeff Garcia and couldn't read a defense to save his life...but he was better at it than Wimbush.

Why is every qb lost in this system then?  Curious really. It’s like all our qbs are one read qb’s. I can’t think of one really good qb that had the offense really clicking. Maybe Golson for some games. But then he eventually became a deer in the head lights. Is the offense to hard?  Our guys to dumb? No talent at the skill positions?  I have a feeling Coan is going to struggle and Buchner will fair no better in his first year if he’s the next option. 

[OKCIrish99 13]

13 hours ago, 4thand1 said:

I don't think Rees/Kelly prefer a ball control offense.  Would you have a pass first offense with the receivers they are going to send out there this season??? I wouldn't.  

I think Rees does more so than Kelly.  Kelly was all about the spread when came to ND.  One thing I do like about Rees is his balance with play calling between run/pass, especially for being a former qb. 

[jbrown_9999 748]

On 7/15/2021 at 7:42 AM, golson5 said:

I was responding to you complaining about Rees.  You just brought Kelly into the mix.  2 different arguments. 

 

I was never an Ian Book fan so you save that talk for someone else.   

 

Rees was just fine as OC last year with his circumstance and we did go to the playoff with him as qb coach and now OC.

 

You were just off by throwing out the numbers the way you did.  It happens, we're all wrong sometimes

This entire exchange started by me asking why 5* QBs do not seem to want to come to ND. In my opinion, it can easily be argued that the Rees offense appears to be one of the reasons.  And yes, referencing 33 points a game is valid since do 5* QBs really want to play for a ball control offense which cannot score more than 14 points in a play-off game? 

 

 

[tneun89 424]

On 7/14/2021 at 12:59 PM, jbrown_9999 said:

5* QBs also want to go to Clemson, Ohio St, and Alabama but not ND. It's too bad that ND has a 35 point a game offense while other CFP teams run 40 to 50 points a game offenses. 

When Kelly had a chance to go out and hire the best OC possible (in an exhaustive national search at that), he somehow ended up with Tommy Rees who architected a 33.4 points per game offense (down from 36.8 in 2019) . 

You realize that ND had 4 senior OL who all ended up getting drafted and no dynamic WRs last year, right? Yet, you wanted Rees to go air raid? You adjust the scheme to the players available - that's what good coaches do. Freeman said the same thing in a recent interview - get the best players on the field and adjust the scheme accordingly. The best players on offense last year were the 5 OL, Ian Book, Kyren Williams, and Michael Mayer. Due to injuries and other things (lack of recruiting included), ND did not have good enough WRs last year to stretch the field like some other CFP contenders. McKinley and Skowronek both ranked near the top for WRs in run blocking per PFF. Rees implemented the best offense he could given the hand that he was dealt. And he did enough to get ND to 10-0 and into the Playoff.

If you want to talk about whether that type of offense can win a title, that's a different conversation. If you want to talk about the lack of talent at WR, that's also a different conversation. In a recent interview, Rees said the offense this year will be drastically different than last year. Why? Because he will be breaking in a new OL, and will have better weapons on the outside in Lenzy and Austin (who were both injured throughout most of last season). Expect Kyren to be used as a pass catcher out of the backfield as he is one of the best in the country at that (per Dane Brugler from the Athletic, who ranked Kyren as the #3 draft-eligible RB in college), and also a healthy dose of Michael Mayer (who Rees said would be the primary or secondary target a bunch this season).

Good coaches adjust their scheme based on the players they have available. Rees did that last year. The ground-and-pound is not a sexy offense and there is a cap to how many points that offense can score. But Rees implemented that offense because that put the players available in the best position to succeed. ND made the Playoff as a result.

[jbrown_9999 748]

14 minutes ago, tneun89 said:

You realize that ND had 4 senior OL who all ended up getting drafted and no dynamic WRs last year, right? Yet, you wanted Rees to go air raid? You adjust the scheme to the players available - that's what good coaches do. Freeman said the same thing in a recent interview - get the best players on the field and adjust the scheme accordingly. The best players on offense last year were the 5 OL, Ian Book, Kyren Williams, and Michael Mayer. Due to injuries and other things (lack of recruiting included), ND did not have good enough WRs last year to stretch the field like some other CFP contenders. McKinley and Skowronek both ranked near the top for WRs in run blocking per PFF. Rees implemented the best offense he could given the hand that he was dealt. And he did enough to get ND to 10-0 and into the Playoff.

If you want to talk about whether that type of offense can win a title, that's a different conversation. If you want to talk about the lack of talent at WR, that's also a different conversation. In a recent interview, Rees said the offense this year will be drastically different than last year. Why? Because he will be breaking in a new OL, and will have better weapons on the outside in Lenzy and Austin (who were both injured throughout most of last season). Expect Kyren to be used as a pass catcher out of the backfield as he is one of the best in the country at that (per Dane Brugler from the Athletic, who ranked Kyren as the #3 draft-eligible RB in college), and also a healthy dose of Michael Mayer (who Rees said would be the primary or secondary target a bunch this season).

Good coaches adjust their scheme based on the players they have available. Rees did that last year. The ground-and-pound is not a sexy offense and there is a cap to how many points that offense can score. But Rees implemented that offense because that put the players available in the best position to succeed. ND made the Playoff as a result.

Again the context was attracting 5* QBs to ND. Did last year's offense move the needle towards recruiting a 5* QB?

[Big23Head 1,468]

I like this discussion but we should make it its own thread. ND definitely needs a top tier QB. 

[golson5 185]

9 hours ago, jbrown_9999 said:

This entire exchange started by me asking why 5* QBs do not seem to want to come to ND. In my opinion, it can easily be argued that the Rees offense appears to be one of the reasons.  And yes, referencing 33 points a game is valid since do 5* QBs really want to play for a ball control offense which cannot score more than 14 points in a play-off game? 

 

 

That 1 year Rees offense is the reason we dont attract 5 star qbs.  Smart analysis

[jbrown_9999 748]

3 hours ago, golson5 said:

That 1 year Rees offense is the reason we dont attract 5 star qbs.  Smart analysis

It is a reflection that Kelly could have chosen a OC who might have helped recruit higher ranked QBs. Instead, Kelly named Rees as OC who then did not do anything in his first year to change the narrative for attracting 5* QBs to ND.

Edited July 17, 2021 by jbrown_9999

[tneun89 424]

13 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

It is a reflection that Kelly could have chosen a OC who might have helped recruit higher ranked QBs. Instead, Kelly named Rees as OC who then did not do anything in his first year to change the narrative for attracting 5* QBs to ND.

Rees is entering his second season as OC. Give it some time.

He was also instrumental in landing Tyler Buchner last cycle, who was ranked #70 overall. He was a 247 Composite 5-star until a poor camp showing in the off-season and then lost his senior season in CA, so he never had a chance to earn it back. Reports from spring practice make it seem like he’ll be a hit.

I would agree as far as Angeli though. ND/Rees dropped the ball by waiting too long to offer Allar. He seems like the real deal and was one of the top QBs at Elite 11. Angeli is a fine prospect but he doesn’t move the needle.

ND needs to do better at QB. But Buchner has a ton of talent and upside. He could be that elite QB ND has been missing.

not sure what’s going on in 2023. But ND is one of the favorites to land 2024 CA QB Julian Sayin. Recent article on Rivals mentioned him as one of the top QBs in his class.

[golson5 185]

1 hour ago, jbrown_9999 said:

It is a reflection that Kelly could have chosen a OC who might have helped recruit higher ranked QBs. Instead, Kelly named Rees as OC who then did not do anything in his first year to change the narrative for attracting 5* QBs to ND.

Buchner was a top 75 recruit and has high upside. Higher than any qb we've landed in a long time imo.  But does he not count?

[ND_JACK 239]

10 hours ago, golson5 said:

Buchner was a top 75 recruit and has high upside. Higher than any qb we've landed in a long time imo.  But does he not count?

Yes and actually he was much higher …..in June 2020 he was the 28 best recruit at a .9841 rating. In my book that’s a 5 star QB. Like I have said before all I care about is how the coaches feel about the recruits not that some rating service dropping him from top 28 to top 70 best recruit. Come on.

[Fifth Horseman 10]

I thought this thread was about 2023 recruiting?

[jbrown_9999 748]

23 hours ago, golson5 said:

Buchner was a top 75 recruit and has high upside. Higher than any qb we've landed in a long time imo.  But does he not count?

Compare Buchner to the QBs that Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson, and Oklahoma have recruited. He is also the only ND QB recruit ranked in the Top 200 in the last 4 classes. Is he the exception or the rule?

[golson5 185]

46 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

Compare Buchner to the QBs that Alabama, Ohio St, Clemson, and Oklahoma have recruited. He is also the only ND QB recruit ranked in the Top 200 in the last 4 classes. Is he the exception or the rule?

So Rees landed the top qb recruit we've had in years as the OC.  Got it

[jbrown_9999 748]

17 hours ago, golson5 said:

So Rees landed the top qb recruit we've had in years as the OC.  Got it

But then after 2022 recruits saw one season of Rees as OC, he could only recruit a QB recruit not in the top 200 .

Instead of having multiple 5*'s and high 4*'s competing for the the starting role like other CFP teams, ND is looking to start a 3* transfer and then hope that Buchner pans out in 2022 given that other Rees QB recruits (as either QB coach or OC) are ranked #521, #225, unranked, and #229.

Again, the question was "what does ND need to do differently to attract 5* QBs?" because the current combination of coaching and scheme does not seem to be attractive to élite QB recruits.

 

[soulpatch 159]

16 hours ago, jbrown_9999 said:

But then after 2022 recruits saw one season of Rees as OC, he could only recruit a QB recruit not in the top 200 .

Instead of having multiple 5*'s and high 4*'s competing for the the starting role like other CFP teams, ND is looking to start a 3* transfer and then hope that Buchner pans out in 2022 given that other Rees QB recruits (as either QB coach or OC) are ranked #521, #225, unranked, and #229.

Again, the question was "what does ND need to do differently to attract 5* QBs?" because the current combination of coaching and scheme does not seem to be attractive to élite QB recruits.

 

I'm going to take a shot in the dark that you'd recommend changing our combination of coaching and scheme?

ND has remained largely consistent in Kelly's tenure with about 150 QBR. Clemson and Alabama did not outpace before 2018 when both experienced sudden, significant upticks in QBR. Clemson's may be due to coaching/scheme but it also coincided with Trevor Lawrence, so it's possible it had something to do with that (Dabo had highly rated recruits prior to him that were also given their shot in the nfl but none of them threw up Trevor-esque QBR). Bama, on the other hand, has managed this with at least three QB's. Additionally, they've had A) a change in OC's and B) changes in scheme, shifting from a largely power O to more passing-based offense. 

So, sure, a change in coaching/scheme may flip the offense and should definitely be a focal point. But, we shouldn't be suggesting A) that the blue-bloods have all been throwing up heisman'esque seasons for the last 10 years and/or B) that any of these programs have been chock-full of can't-miss talent. Between OSU, Clemson, Bama and Oklahoma, they have put two starting-worthy QB's in the NFL in, what, the past 20 years? And, calling Baker starting-worthy is a streeeeetch. 

I think scheme and WR are the final two pieces for these teams. We have Mac Jones-caliber talent in our pipeline.

Edited July 19, 2021 by soulpatch

[jbrown_9999 748]

3 hours ago, soulpatch said:

I'm going to take a shot in the dark that you'd recommend changing our combination of coaching and scheme?

ND has remained largely consistent in Kelly's tenure with about 150 QBR. Clemson and Alabama did not outpace before 2018 when both experienced sudden, significant upticks in QBR. Clemson's may be due to coaching/scheme but it also coincided with Trevor Lawrence, so it's possible it had something to do with that (Dabo had highly rated recruits prior to him that were also given their shot in the nfl but none of them threw up Trevor-esque QBR). Bama, on the other hand, has managed this with at least three QB's. Additionally, they've had A) a change in OC's and B) changes in scheme, shifting from a largely power O to more passing-based offense. 

So, sure, a change in coaching/scheme may flip the offense and should definitely be a focal point. But, we shouldn't be suggesting A) that the blue-bloods have all been throwing up heisman'esque seasons for the last 10 years and/or B) that any of these programs have been chock-full of can't-miss talent. Between OSU, Clemson, Bama and Oklahoma, they have put two starting-worthy QB's in the NFL in, what, the past 20 years? And, calling Baker starting-worthy is a streeeeetch. 

I think scheme and WR are the final two pieces for these teams. We have Mac Jones-caliber talent in our pipeline.

It appears that ND is behind the curve from an offensive perspective. Can ND's ball control offense win a NC? Doubtful given that Kelly has not scored more than 14 points in the four play-off games he coached in at ND.

It does not necessarily need to require a coaching change. Saban made the decision in 2014 to open up his offense. It took a little time to get recruiting, etc. aligned but Alabama's last two QBs were both drafted in the first round.

Other CFP schools Notre Dame should measure themselves against as well: Clemson's last two QBs, drafted in the first round. Ohio State's last two QBs drafted in the first round. Oklahoma goes against this first round trend in that their last QB was drafted in the second round but the two before that were each drafted #1 overall in the first round.

The above schools have all signed multiple true 5* QB recruits in the past few years.

ND's last two QBs? undrafted and a surprising 4th round pick. QB recruiting? a high 4* but no 5*'s. 

 

[Big23Head 1,468]

Maybe this helps (there is a big BBQ event happening next week, July 27)

 

 

 

Also, Mac Markway is tentatively visiting as well and just announced he is committing next week...interesting development. If he's visiting that should mean Irish, if he is not then I'd expect elsewhere.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Big23Head

[soulpatch 159]

18 minutes ago, jbrown_9999 said:

It appears that ND is behind the curve from an offensive perspective. Can ND's ball control offense win a NC? Doubtful given that Kelly has not scored more than 14 points in the four play-off games he coached in at ND.

It does not necessarily need to require a coaching change. Saban made the decision in 2014 to open up his offense. It took a little time to get recruiting, etc. aligned but Alabama's last two QBs were both drafted in the first round.

Other CFP schools Notre Dame should measure themselves against as well: Clemson's last two QBs, drafted in the first round. Ohio State's last two QBs drafted in the first round. Oklahoma goes against this first round trend in that their last QB was drafted in the second round but the two before that were each drafted #1 overall in the first round.

The above schools have all signed multiple true 5* QB recruits in the past few years.

ND's last two QBs? undrafted and a surprising 4th round pick. QB recruiting? a high 4* but no 5*'s. 

 

If you're looking to talk about QB's at ND (or other schools) beyond ND's '23 recruiting effort, you should make a thread for it. If you label the title appropriately, I'm sure you'll get good engagement from the members of this community who have opinions to offer on it.

[Big23Head 1,468]

Just FYI, all 2023 except Hinish, Ford, and Speca...talent attracts talent.

 

BBQ Unofficial Visit [7/27]:

MI QB Dante Moore (Offer)

IN LB Drayk Bowen (Offer)

OK WR Micah Tease (Offer)

TX S Ryan Yaites (Offer)

PA LB Ta'Mere Robinson (Offer)

OH DL Luke Montgomery (Offer)*

NJ S Adon Shuler (Offer)

FL DL Derrick LeBlanc (Offer)

GA CB Kayin Lee (Offer)

OH OL Joshua Padilla (Offer)

MA LB Preston Zinter (Offer)

FL CB Malik Muhammad (Offer)

FL S King Mack (Offer)

NJ CB Moussa Kane

PA LB Anthony Speca (Offer, 2024)

OH DL Brenan Vernon (ND Verbal)

MO DL Tyson Ford (ND Verbal)

PA DL Donovan Hinish (ND Verbal)

 

*Tentative

Edited July 20, 2021 by Big23Head

[reneg 60]

1 hour ago, Big23Head said:

Just FYI, all 2023 except Hinish, Ford, and Speca...talent attracts talent.

 

BBQ Unofficial Visit [7/27]:

MI QB Dante Moore (Offer)

MO TE Mac Markway (Offer)*

IN LB Drayk Bowen (Offer)

OK WR Micah Tease (Offer)

TX S Ryan Yaites (Offer)

PA LB Ta'Mere Robinson (Offer)

OH DL Luke Montgomery (Offer)*

NJ S Adon Shuler (Offer)

FL DL Derrick LeBlanc (Offer)

GA CB Kayin Lee (Offer)

OH OL Joshua Padilla (Offer)

MA LB Preston Zinter (Offer)

FL CB Malik Muhammad (Offer)

FL S King Mack (Offer)

NJ CB Moussa Kane

PA LB Anthony Speca (Offer, 2024)

OH DL Brenan Vernon (ND Verbal)

MO DL Tyson Ford (ND Verbal)

PA DL Donovan Hinish (ND Verbal)

 

*Tentative

Tons of talent. Whoever is grilling better be wearing them white New Balance's.

[jbrown_9999 748]

1 hour ago, soulpatch said:

If you're looking to talk about QB's at ND (or other schools) beyond ND's '23 recruiting effort, you should make a thread for it. If you label the title appropriately, I'm sure you'll get good engagement from the members of this community who have opinions to offer on it.

I tried. 

 

[The Captain 19 208]

Big. On your list you posted of tentative visitors for the BBQ event I don't see Mac Markway. Is that an indication? According to his Twitter he is announcing tomorrow the 27th. Just wondered your thoughts. Kid looks like a good one. 

[Big23Head 1,468]

1 hour ago, The Captain 19 said:

Big. On your list you posted of tentative visitors for the BBQ event I don't see Mac Markway. Is that an indication? According to his Twitter he is announcing tomorrow the 27th. Just wondered your thoughts. Kid looks like a good one. 

Don't expect it to be ND. He was tentative and doesn't look like he is attending.