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My question, is Kelly doing anything different when hiring coaches now compared to previously? If so, what?

 

Out of the eight previous OCs or DCs Kelly has had on staff, only one (Martin) is currently coaching at a higher level that he had at ND. If you are generous, you can argue that Elko is in an equal position at A&M due to the salary he is making even if, IMO, the Aggie program is a step down from ND. Otherwise, Kelly's ability to judge and develop coaching talent appears questionable.

 

Here are the coordinators BK has hired at ND:

 

Charlie Molnar, OC 2010 to 2011, Now QB coach at Idaho (a few steps down)

Chuck Martin, OC 2012 to 2013, Now HC at Miami, OH (HC is step up)

Mike Sanford Jr., OC 2014 to 2016, Now OC at Minnesota (step down)

Chip Long, OC 2017 to mid-2019, Now Analyst at Tenn (a few steps down)

Tom(my) Rees, OC mid-2019-present

 

Bob Diaco, DC 2010 to 2013, Now DC at Purdue (step down)

BVG, DC 2014 to mid-2016, Now DC at Bowling Green (a few steps down)

Greg Hudson, DC mid-2016, Appears to have left coaching after ND (??)

Mike Elko, DC 2017, Now DC at Texas A&M (perhaps lateral move due to $$)

Clark Lea, DC 2018 to present

Edited by jbrown_9999
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My question, is Kelly doing anything different when hiring coaches now compared to previously? If so, what?

 

Out of the eight previous OCs or DCs Kelly has had on staff, only one (Martin) is currently coaching at a higher level that he had at ND. If you are generous, you can argue that Elko is in an equal position at A&M due to the salary he is making even if, IMO, the Aggie program is a step down from ND. Otherwise, Kelly's ability to judge and develop coaching talent appears questionable.

 

Here are the coordinators BK has hired at ND:

 

Charlie Molnar, OC 2010 to 2011, Now QB coach at Idaho (a few steps down)

Chuck Martin, OC 2012 to 2013, Now HC at Miami, OH (HC is step up)

Mike Sanford Jr., OC 2014 to 2016, Now OC at Minnesota (step down)

Chip Long, OC 2017 to mid-2019, Now Analyst at Tenn (a few steps down)

Tom(my) Rees, OC mid-2019-present

 

Bob Diaco, DC 2010 to 2013, Now DC at Purdue (step down)

BVG, DC 2014 to mid-2016, Now DC at Bowling Green (a few steps down)

Greg Hudson, DC mid-2016, Appears to have left coaching after ND (??)

Mike Elko, DC 2017, Now DC at Texas A&M (perhaps lateral move due to $$)

Clark Lea, DC 2018 to present

 

The fact that he's hired that many suggests longevity and program stability. I know your getting at the difference between stabilize and excellence and I think its quality recruiting, which needs to step up

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My question, is Kelly doing anything different when hiring coaches now compared to previously? If so, what?

 

Out of the eight previous OCs or DCs Kelly has had on staff, only one (Martin) is currently coaching at a higher level that he had at ND. If you are generous, you can argue that Elko is in an equal position at A&M due to the salary he is making even if, IMO, the Aggie program is a step down from ND. Otherwise, Kelly's ability to judge and develop coaching talent appears questionable.

 

Here are the coordinators BK has hired at ND:

 

Charlie Molnar, OC 2010 to 2011, Now QB coach at Idaho (a few steps down)

Chuck Martin, OC 2012 to 2013, Now HC at Miami, OH (HC is step up)

Mike Sanford Jr., OC 2014 to 2016, Now OC at Minnesota (step down)

Chip Long, OC 2017 to mid-2019, Now Analyst at Tenn (a few steps down)

Tom(my) Rees, OC mid-2019-present

 

Bob Diaco, DC 2010 to 2013, Now DC at Purdue (step down)

BVG, DC 2014 to mid-2016, Now DC at Bowling Green (a few steps down)

Greg Hudson, DC mid-2016, Appears to have left coaching after ND (??)

Mike Elko, DC 2017, Now DC at Texas A&M (perhaps lateral move due to $$)

Clark Lea, DC 2018 to present

 

Hudson is a little disingenuous. He was an analyst who took over from a fired DC.

 

Also, Chip long as an analytst is a TBD. Many HCs go the analyst route for financial and other reasons for a year after.

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Hudson is a little disingenuous. He was an analyst who took over from a fired DC.

 

Also, Chip long as an analytst is a TBD. Many HCs go the analyst route for financial and other reasons for a year after.

 

I left Hudson as a ?? intentionally. That said, he was the person who Kelly named as DC instead of any of the other defensive coaches so BK must have felt that Hudson was the best option to be ND's DC at that point in time.

 

Long is not a TBD. He was fired during the season and no other schools wanted him as an OC or a position coach so he had to take a job as an Analyst.

 

It is a fact that Martin is the only former coordinator of Kelly's who is currently employed in a better role than their role at ND. For me, this suggests that Kelly may not be good at identifying coaching talent.

 

For whatever reason, in the past four seasons, BK has had two coordinators who he fired before the end of the season. That is at least a 25% failure rate as a hiring manager of the DC and OC positions.

 

Again, if Kelly is not doing anything different when it comes to his current hiring process, his past history as a hiring manager suggests that his decision making process for hiring direct reports might be flawed.

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Currently? Yes.

 

But, most all of those guys left for promotions. Molnar, Martin, Sanford, and Diaco left for head coaching jobs at DI schools. Hudson was just an interim and only filled the spot since he was on staff already and we had a midseason turnover. Elko is at worst lateral, but one could consider it a promotion in that he was lured away with a record breaking salary level for an assistant coach at the time.

 

Now, is it rough that assistant coaches have left us for head coaching jobs at group of 6 programs like WKU, Miami of Ohio, UMass, UConn, etc, while assistants have left SEC schools for head coaching jobs in the Big 12, ACC or SEC? Maybe.

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While I agree with the overarching point that Kelly's hiring has not been great (or maybe even good until recently) I think it's a little unfair to look at where Diaco/Sanford/Molnar are now while disregarding that they were all Div 1 head coaches directly after leaving ND. Now did any of them stick around? No, but a lot of talented OCs don't make great head coaches.

 

Again, I'm not saying any of those guys were top tier, but 3/4 OCs he's hired have gotten D1 HC jobs (I didn't count Tommy because he hasn't had a chance to leave yet, but if he follows a similar trajectory of other young, somewhat talented OCs across the nation he will have a head job when he leaves.)

 

Now DC looks a little worse, with only Diaco leaving for a HC job and Elko leaving for a ton of money. We all know BVG was an abject failure and that stains a lot of Kelly's hiring resume for me, personally, but by all accounts Lea will be leaving for a HC job whenever Vandy opens up.

 

I also think it's important to include guys like Tony Alford and Matt Lafleur, who have both move up since leaving ND as position coaches. Now Alford seemingly couldn't get the chance he wanted at ND as OC, and still doesn't call plays, while Lafleur got out of South Bend as fast as possible but is now an NFL head coach.

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Currently? Yes.

 

But, most all of those guys left for promotions. Molnar, Martin, Sanford, and Diaco left for head coaching jobs at DI schools. Hudson was just an interim and only filled the spot since he was on staff already and we had a midseason turnover. Elko is at worst lateral, but one could consider it a promotion in that he was lured away with a record breaking salary level for an assistant coach at the time.

 

Now, is it rough that assistant coaches have left us for head coaching jobs at group of 6 programs like WKU, Miami of Ohio, UMass, UConn, etc, while assistants have left SEC schools for head coaching jobs in the Big 12, ACC or SEC? Maybe.

 

My point is that Kelly did not hire coordinators who could succeed at that next level. Or alternatively, he failed at developing them.

 

They have also since landed lower than when they were at ND suggesting that maybe they were not really as qualified as Kelly thought them to be.

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While I agree with the overarching point that Kelly's hiring has not been great (or maybe even good until recently) I think it's a little unfair to look at where Diaco/Sanford/Molnar are now while disregarding that they were all Div 1 head coaches directly after leaving ND. Now did any of them stick around? No, but a lot of talented OCs don't make great head coaches.

 

Again, I'm not saying any of those guys were top tier, but 3/4 OCs he's hired have gotten D1 HC jobs (I didn't count Tommy because he hasn't had a chance to leave yet, but if he follows a similar trajectory of other young, somewhat talented OCs across the nation he will have a head job when he leaves.)

 

Now DC looks a little worse, with only Diaco leaving for a HC job and Elko leaving for a ton of money. We all know BVG was an abject failure and that stains a lot of Kelly's hiring resume for me, personally, but by all accounts Lea will be leaving for a HC job whenever Vandy opens up.

 

I also think it's important to include guys like Tony Alford and Matt Lafleur, who have both move up since leaving ND as position coaches. Now Alford seemingly couldn't get the chance he wanted at ND as OC, and still doesn't call plays, while Lafleur got out of South Bend as fast as possible but is now an NFL head coach.

 

I specifically focused on coordinators since they are supposed to be the senior members of the staff who are next in line for HC jobs.

 

If Kelly is so good at identifying coaching talent, why wasn't Lafleur named OC instead of Mike Denbrock?

 

(Just realized that I left Denbrock out. He is also a step or two down being OC at Cincinnati now after being OC at ND in 2014.

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I specifically focused on coordinators since they are supposed to be the senior members of the staff who are next in line for HC jobs.

 

If Kelly is so good at identifying coaching talent, why wasn't Lafleur named OC instead of Mike Denbrock?

 

(Just realized that I left Denbrock out. He is also a step or two down being OC at Cincinnati now after being OC at ND in 2014.

 

Again, I don't think Kelly is great (or even good) at identifying coaching talent. I also think 3/4 OCs getting head coaching jobs and 1/3 DC getting head coaching jobs and 1/3 getting lured away as the highest paid DC in the country (at the time) seems pretty good to me. The numbers will also look even better when Lea eventually leaves for a head coaching job.

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Again, I don't think Kelly is great (or even good) at identifying coaching talent. I also think 3/4 OCs getting head coaching jobs and 1/3 DC getting head coaching jobs and 1/3 getting lured away as the highest paid DC in the country (at the time) seems pretty good to me. The numbers will also look even better when Lea eventually leaves for a head coaching job.

 

Are these coordinators perceived to be "successful" when at ND due to the talent advantage that ND has over most opponents?

 

Then when these coaches leave for places such as UMass, UConn, and Western Kentucky which do not enjoy the same talent advantages, are their coaching shortcomings then exposed which then prevents them from getting a job at the same level as their ND coordinator role?

 

Why are Idaho, Bowling Green, Cincinnati, Purdue and Minnesota the best gigs that these guys can get given that they used to be DCs/OCs at Notre Dame?

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Are these coordinators perceived to be "successful" when at ND due to the talent advantage that ND has over most opponents?

 

Then when these coaches leave for places such as UMass, UConn, and Western Kentucky which do not enjoy the same talent advantages, are their coaching shortcomings then exposed which then prevents them from getting a job at the same level as their ND coordinator role?

 

Why are Idaho, Bowling Green, Cincinnati, Purdue and Minnesota the best gigs that these guys can get given that they used to be DCs/OCs at Notre Dame?

 

That's very possible, and something that I have mentioned on this board in regards to Kelly winning 10 games against a schedule with down USC/Michigan.

 

I also think that once you "fail" as a head coach, you're kind ostracized from big time coaching for a few years. Coach was fired (rightfully) and then not given the USC job when the whole team wanted him because he was seen as a failure from his time at Ole Miss. If Minnesota wins 8-10 games again this year I'd almost guarantee Sanford gets another HC look.

 

Again, none of this is meant to say that I think Kelly has done a good job hiring coaches over the years, just that I'm not sure this is the best way to look at it, especially considering if they don't have a HC job, how many jobs are steps up compared to ND? 15?

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My point is that Kelly did not hire coordinators who could succeed at that next level. Or alternatively, he failed at developing them.

 

They have also since landed lower than when they were at ND suggesting that maybe they were not really as qualified as Kelly thought them to be.

 

 

Maybe. Chuck Martin is doing a helluva job at Miami, though. Might it be said that Diaco and Sanford jumped too early at the first chances and ended up at schools on the precipice of failure? Clearly, Diaco isn't responsible for UConn falling off the cliff, and appeared to have at least had them maybe more stable than they were? WKU has also fallen off a cliff since before Sanford. Molnar was pushed out the door from here and didn't really have a choice. But some of the hirings are regional too. College football staffing has really appeared to be more and more regional over the years, which is a bit surprising.

 

BVG was an abject failure. We can all agree on that, though. :grin:

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Are these coordinators perceived to be "successful" when at ND due to the talent advantage that ND has over most opponents?

 

Then when these coaches leave for places such as UMass, UConn, and Western Kentucky which do not enjoy the same talent advantages, are their coaching shortcomings then exposed which then prevents them from getting a job at the same level as their ND coordinator role?

 

Why are Idaho, Bowling Green, Cincinnati, Purdue and Minnesota the best gigs that these guys can get given that they used to be DCs/OCs at Notre Dame?

 

Being a successful (even amazing) coordinator or position coach has almost nothing to do with being a quality head coach.

 

There are examples galore of pretty darn good coordinators that went on to do just about nothing...actually, almost every failed HC will probably fit this mold.

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Being a successful (even amazing) coordinator or position coach has almost nothing to do with being a quality head coach.

 

There are examples galore of pretty darn good coordinators that went on to do just about nothing...actually, almost every failed HC will probably fit this mold.

 

My point is that 7 of the 9 former OCs and DCs under Kelly at ND now have jobs that are less prestigious than their former jobs at ND.

 

This makes wonder how good of a judge of talent Kelly is when it comes to hiring his coordinators? Kelly, for example, had Matt Lafleur on staff as QB coach but decided to make Mike Denbrock his OC instead.

 

Lafleur went on to coach the Packers while Denbrock is OC at Cincinnati.

 

Why does Kelly's coaching tree seem so underwhelming compared to other coaches who have coached for 25 to 30 years?

 

Is Kelly not teaching his coordinators anything?

 

Coaches like Saban, Meyer, Leach, Stoops, and even Gundy all seem to either hire better coordinators or at least teach them better

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WKU has also fallen off a cliff since before Sanford.

 

BTW, Western Kentucky was not falling off a cliff before Sanford. It fell after he got there

 

Willie Taggart's record at WKU

 

2010 Western Kentucky Season 2-10

2011 Western Kentucky Season 7-5

2012 Western Kentucky Season 7-6

 

Bobby Petrino at WKU

 

2013 Western Kentucky Season 8-4

 

Jeff Brohm's record at WKU

 

2014 Western Kentucky Season 8-5

2015 Western Kentucky Season 12-2

2016 Western Kentucky Season 11-3

 

Mike Sanford Jr at WKU

 

2017 Western Kentucky Season 6-7

2018 Western Kentucky Season 3-9

Edited by jbrown_9999
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My point is that 7 of the 9 former OCs and DCs under Kelly at ND now have jobs that are less prestigious than their former jobs at ND.

 

This makes wonder how good of a judge of talent Kelly is when it comes to hiring his coordinators? Kelly, for example, had Matt Lafleur on staff as QB coach but decided to make Mike Denbrock his OC instead.

 

Lafleur went on to coach the Packers while Denbrock is OC at Cincinnati.

 

Why does Kelly's coaching tree seem so underwhelming compared to other coaches who have coached for 25 to 30 years?

 

Is Kelly not teaching his coordinators anything?

 

Coaches like Saban, Meyer, Leach, Stoops, and even Gundy all seem to either hire better coordinators or at least teach them better

 

I'd be curious how many of Saban/Meyer/Swinney coordinators now have jobs that are less prestigious. Because for any of them (and ND) it's pretty much being a head coach or being at a worst spot right?

 

I also wonder whether Saban/Meyer/Swinney hire better coordinators or if they are just better coaches with more of a vision for how a program is supposed to be run.

 

Again, this isn't meant to be a defense of Kelly, because I think he's mostly failed in the hiring of coordinators during his tenure, just that I'm not sure this is a good way to show it.

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BTW, Western Kentucky was not falling off a cliff before Sanford. It fell after he got there

 

Willie Taggart's record at WKU

 

2010 Western Kentucky Season 2-10

2011 Western Kentucky Season 7-5

2012 Western Kentucky Season 7-6

 

Bobby Petrino at WKU

 

2013 Western Kentucky Season 8-4

 

Jeff Brohm's record at WKU

 

2014 Western Kentucky Season 8-5

2015 Western Kentucky Season 12-2

2016 Western Kentucky Season 11-3

 

Mike Sanford Jr at WKU

 

2017 Western Kentucky Season 6-7

2018 Western Kentucky Season 3-9

 

You're right. They fell off a cliff with him and after him with no clear sight back up.

 

 

Still, I think a lot of this can be explained with being non-conference in the upper midwest vs being in the southeast and the view that only southeastern coaches can coach in the southeast. If you've already left ND, and your position has been replaced, there's not an awful lot of other upper midwest school openings that would be viewed as "on-par or better" with ND. OSU for sure. Would you say PSU and Michigan? No one else, really. That's not a lot of positions to be competing for.

Edited by irishguy773
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