Jump to content

Things gained from 2019


Recommended Posts

Under BK we are 3-9 vs Top-10 opponents and 0-4 vs Top-5 opponents.

The 4 losses vs Top-5 opponents are to No. 2 Alabama in 2012, No. 2 FSU in 2014, and No. 2 Clemson in 2018, and to No. 4 Georgia in 2019. We are also 4-4 in bowl games. Also, in our 2 highest profile games against Bama and Clem, we got destroyed and humiliated in front of the entire CFB world.

 

In 2017 we finished ranked 11th. In 2018 we finished ranked 5th. In 2019 we are currently ranked 16th. I won’t bother putting in where we finished in the rankings most of the other years.....

 

This is the reality of BK. He is a good coach that has brought ND back to a certain level of respectability and not the laughingstock we have been under the prior 3 coaches. But, he is not able to win big games and take us to that upper level of top programs. Good coach, not great coach.

 

11th in 2017

5th in 2018 should have been 4th

Top 10 after the bowl in 2019

 

3 top 11 finishes in last 3 years. That's a program. We haven't been a program since 1993. We've had a few good teams but we are back to being a top 10 program. Next year we need to make out 4 straight years. And we should

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 95
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

We're a different program starting in 2017. 32 and 6 and another good bowl win will put us at 33 and 6. We're the 7th or 8th best program of the last 3 years.

 

And we're looking good for the future. 10 wins is now the minimum under Kelly. We're closing the gap

 

Yes, we are!

Link to post
Share on other sites
11th in 2017

5th in 2018 should have been 4th

Top 10 after the bowl in 2019

 

3 top 11 finishes in last 3 years. That's a program. We haven't been a program since 1993. We've had a few good teams but we are back to being a top 10 program. Next year we need to make out 4 straight years. And we should

 

No way we will be top 10 this year. No way.

 

We will be lucky to get to 13 or 14.

 

That would be one top 10 finish in the last 3 years. One. That isn’t great. It’s good. Not great.

 

As I’ve said about BK. He has done a good job getting the program to where it is: a decent, respectable top 20 program. But I want more than that. And I’m willing to take a chance and go after one of the many young coaches out there that show a ton of promise to put us over the top. Even if that means the risk of failure. Who really cares if we win 9-10 games each year against bad to mediocre teams and lose our big games just to say we won 9-10 games? I don’t.

 

But that is why some people are successful and the best of the best and not satisfied with window dressing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm starting to think Kelly supporters are mentally retarded.

 

That’s a super-nice thing to say. Really. Keep up the positive labelling.

 

I don’t think anyone in DomerDomain is a huge Kelly supporter.

Some of us have lived through the Faust-Davie-Willingham-Weis years, however, supporting the University while those in charge looked for the up-and-coming coach to lead ND to the promised land of hardware riches. Heck, I was a student at ND during the Faust era.

No hardware with those guys.

No hardware with Kelly.

One trophy with Holtz.

 

We who don’t have to live with the financial implications of those coaching decisions can sit in our homes and offices spewing our guts on social media without consequence. Administrators and trustees who care about applications to the school, dollars coming in and going out, and academic reputation among professors and academicians and rankings services have to move carefully.

They see the things we don’t have access to and make the decisions they think work best for the University.

I don’t always agree with them, but I don’t call them or their supporters retarded.

Be better than that.

Edited by Kelly Gruene
Link to post
Share on other sites

Forget the 10 wins stuff. 10 wins wasn't realistic unless you won the title until about Holtz. So plenty of coaches never had a chance to string 10 win seasons together.

 

ND has had 30 or so coaches. Kelly is currently 16th in all time win percentage, a better indicator (and that includes his vacated wins).

 

Of the 11 coaches who lasted at least 5 season, Kelly is 7th in win percentage, ahead of Weis, Davie, Faust, Brennan. Do any of those guys strike you as great?

 

You could probably say Kelly is the best Notre Dame coach to never win a title, but big deal, shortest midget and all that.

 

Kelly is a really good football coach. He's had 16 years at the BCS level to prove he's great. He just isn't. If that is good enough for you and you want to try "just a few more years" so be it. You are entitled to your opinion. I want great and sometimes when you shoot for greatness you strike out.

 

I tell my kids when they play sports all the time, if you are afraid of making a mistake, you'll never be great, as you will be playing with fear.

 

ND is fearful right now. Fearful of what might happen if they hire a guy who can only win 7 games. I'd rather be optimistic I'll find the guy that will win the whole damn thing.

 

The ironic thing is that Kelly was a QB guru when he came in. If he had a Heisman level QB in 3-4 of these year, we might be talking about a title or two. He's never come close to that and his teams have never been elite because of it. ND will never be Alabama, Ohio St etc with overall talent. But they have enough talent that they could win it with a transcendent QB. He's 0 for ND on that front. I'm not looking forward to him getting 3-4 more cracks at it. He's had his chance. Someone else should get theirs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No way we will be top 10 this year. No way.

 

We will be lucky to get to 13 or 14.

 

That would be one top 10 finish in the last 3 years. One. That isn’t great. It’s good. Not great.

 

As I’ve said about BK. He has done a good job getting the program to where it is: a decent, respectable top 20 program. But I want more than that. And I’m willing to take a chance and go after one of the many young coaches out there that show a ton of promise to put us over the top. Even if that means the risk of failure. Who really cares if we win 9-10 games each year against bad to mediocre teams and lose our big games just to say we won 9-10 games? I don’t.

 

But that is why some people are successful and the best of the best and not satisfied with window dressing.

 

We will be 14th this week. After the conference championship games we'll most likely be 12th. After we win our bowl game very very good chance at 11 and 2 we jump into top 10

Link to post
Share on other sites
Forget the 10 wins stuff. 10 wins wasn't realistic unless you won the title until about Holtz. So plenty of coaches never had a chance to string 10 win seasons together.

 

ND has had 30 or so coaches. Kelly is currently 16th in all time win percentage, a better indicator (and that includes his vacated wins).

 

Of the 11 coaches who lasted at least 5 season, Kelly is 7th in win percentage, ahead of Weis, Davie, Faust, Brennan. Do any of those guys strike you as great?

 

You could probably say Kelly is the best Notre Dame coach to never win a title, but big deal, shortest midget and all that.

 

Kelly is a really good football coach. He's had 16 years at the BCS level to prove he's great. He just isn't. If that is good enough for you and you want to try "just a few more years" so be it. You are entitled to your opinion. I want great and sometimes when you shoot for greatness you strike out.

 

I tell my kids when they play sports all the time, if you are afraid of making a mistake, you'll never be great, as you will be playing with fear.

 

ND is fearful right now. Fearful of what might happen if they hire a guy who can only win 7 games. I'd rather be optimistic I'll find the guy that will win the whole damn thing.

 

The ironic thing is that Kelly was a QB guru when he came in. If he had a Heisman level QB in 3-4 of these year, we might be talking about a title or two. He's never come close to that and his teams have never been elite because of it. ND will never be Alabama, Ohio St etc with overall talent. But they have enough talent that they could win it with a transcendent QB. He's 0 for ND on that front. I'm not looking forward to him getting 3-4 more cracks at it. He's had his chance. Someone else should get theirs.

 

Hes 32 and 6 and with a bowl win that gets us to 33 and 6. We'll have a good team next year and that will be 4 straight 10 plus win seasons. Recruiting and player development is going very well. Its clear we have momentum and are building something here.

 

Only 6 teams have won 10 plus games last 3 years. We are one of them. Future is bright

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hes 32 and 6 and with a bowl win that gets us to 33 and 6. We'll have a good team next year and that will be 4 straight 10 plus win seasons. Recruiting and player development is going very well. Its clear we have momentum and are building something here.

 

Only 6 teams have won 10 plus games last 3 years. We are one of them. Future is bright

 

Cory already proved your 10 win scenario as bogus. So keep preaching it if it makes you feel better.

 

We have literally beaten no one in the span you are speaking about. No one of any significance. So if you get joy out of beating up on nobody’s and padding your win total then so be it.

 

I notice you keep ignoring my facts on BK’s record vs top 10 and top 5. I think you and Elder are the only fans and non fans that would say BK is elite with that record. No objective CFB fan would say that.

 

I’m with Cory on this. I would rather strike out trying for greatness than continue to be mediocre. And that is all ND is in the eyes of the CFB world: a good program. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Ball don’t lie.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Cory already proved your 10 win scenario as bogus. So keep preaching it if it makes you feel better.

 

We have literally beaten no one in the span you are speaking about. No one of any significance. So if you get joy out of beating up on nobody’s and padding your win total then so be it.

 

I notice you keep ignoring my facts on BK’s record vs top 10 and top 5. I think you and Elder are the only fans and non fans that would say BK is elite with that record. No objective CFB fan would say that.

 

I’m with Cory on this. I would rather strike out trying for greatness than continue to be mediocre. And that is all ND is in the eyes of the CFB world: a good program. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Ball don’t lie.

 

He didnt prove anything. If winning 10 games is so easy, why are we 1 of only 6 teams to have accomplished that over the last 3 years?? So you're wrong there.

 

I never said Kelly was elite. You make stuff up. I dont know why? I call Kelly what he is, a very good coach. Hes not elite. Hes not average. Hes a very good coach. Sonewhere in the top 15.

 

Its clear Kelly has changed the program the last 3 years. Obvious. 32 and 6. More coming. Im going to give a very good coach a chance to keep building what he has going the last 3 years

Link to post
Share on other sites
He didnt prove anything. If winning 10 games is so easy, why are we 1 of only 6 teams to have accomplished that over the last 3 years?? So you're wrong there.

 

I never said Kelly was elite. You make stuff up. I dont know why? I call Kelly what he is, a very good coach. Hes not elite. Hes not average. Hes a very good coach. Sonewhere in the top 15.

 

Its clear Kelly has changed the program the last 3 years. Obvious. 32 and 6. More coming. Im going to give a very good coach a chance to keep building what he has going the last 3 years

 

No one is saying Kelly isn't a good coach. Maybe very good. But he isn't elite. And ND deserves elite.

 

As good as 32-6 is, that win % would be 7th all time at ND.

 

Also, what have you seen from Ian Book, who Kelly will trot out there again next year, that says he can beat an elite team? He's played vs. 3 top level defenses and hasn't looked the part in any of those games. He's a really good QB, he'll never be elite.

 

Then you are going to ask either Phil, with little experience or a freshman in Buchner to win. We know Kelly's offense is "too complicated" for young QB's, so there goes another year. So at best, we are looking at competing for a title in 2022. Kelly's contract is up then, so he might not even be around.

 

If ND keeps Kelly, which they will, we can expect 3-4 really good seasons where ND wins 9-11 games and falls short vs. the elite. Woohoo. Give me a chance to compete with the elite teams and I'll take the risk of a 7 win season.

Link to post
Share on other sites
He didnt prove anything. If winning 10 games is so easy, why are we 1 of only 6 teams to have accomplished that over the last 3 years?? So you're wrong there.

 

I never said Kelly was elite. You make stuff up. I dont know why? I call Kelly what he is, a very good coach. Hes not elite. Hes not average. Hes a very good coach. Sonewhere in the top 15.

 

Its clear Kelly has changed the program the last 3 years. Obvious. 32 and 6. More coming. Im going to give a very good coach a chance to keep building what he has going the last 3 years

 

You keep changing your tune but hey, you’re entitled to your opinion. He has had 10 years here. Not 3, like you keep referring to. I’m basing my opinion on his entire body of work. My opinion is he can’t win big games. You are obviously fine with him and his results even though he doesn’t win big games. I’m not. You keep holding out hope that he will win big games and want to keep giving him the chance to do so. My opinion is that we have give him long enough to prove himself and he just can’t get it done.

 

I can already hear the BK supporters after we have similar results next year: The narrative will be to just wait until 2021 when BK has an elite QB like Buchner. It will epic in here.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am really torn. Kelly will not get a Natty at ND. However, are we willing to take a chance with another coach and his scheme and personnel which would likely set us back a season or two?

 

We have recruits coming in that are better, people now expect us to win 10+ a year, and we are much more respectable as a program now versus 5+ years ago; really since Lou. We will not win a title though.

 

So I think I am leaning toward giving Kelly the extension and wait for the new guy such as Fleck to prove themselves.

 

Quinn does need to go though.

Link to post
Share on other sites
That’s a super-nice thing to say. Really. Keep up the positive labelling.

 

I don’t think anyone in DomerDomain is a huge Kelly supporter.

Some of us have lived through the Faust-Davie-Willingham-Weis years, however, supporting the University while those in charge looked for the up-and-coming coach to lead ND to the promised land of hardware riches. Heck, I was a student at ND during the Faust era.

No hardware with those guys.

No hardware with Kelly.

One trophy with Holtz.

 

We who don’t have to live with the financial implications of those coaching decisions can sit in our homes and offices spewing our guts on social media without consequence. Administrators and trustees who care about applications to the school, dollars coming in and going out, and academic reputation among professors and academicians and rankings services have to move carefully.

They see the things we don’t have access to and make the decisions they think work best for the University.

I don’t always agree with them, but I don’t call them or their supporters retarded.

Be better than that.

 

Very well put. BTW I was at school during the Dan Devine era and I remember fans constantly complaining and saying we need Ara back....I never got on that bandwagon and I definitely not getting on this one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Cory already proved your 10 win scenario as bogus. So keep preaching it if it makes you feel better.

 

We have literally beaten no one in the span you are speaking about. No one of any significance. So if you get joy out of beating up on nobody’s and padding your win total then so be it.

 

I notice you keep ignoring my facts on BK’s record vs top 10 and top 5. I think you and Elder are the only fans and non fans that would say BK is elite with that record. No objective CFB fan would say that.

 

I’m with Cory on this. I would rather strike out trying for greatness than continue to be mediocre. And that is all ND is in the eyes of the CFB world: a good program. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Ball don’t lie.

 

I agree with what you're saying about BK's record against elite teams. There is absolutely no denying that. But I don't agree with the notion that ND is padding its stats against weak teams. In the last 38 games (start of 2017), ND has played 16 teams that finished the year ranked in the final AP Top 25 (using the current Top 25 for 2019, so subject to change). So, in 42% of its games since the start of 2017, ND has played a team that finished the year ranked in the final AP Top 25. That's really good. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I would think that would be at or near the top among all programs nationally. To me, that makes the fact that ND is one of 6 teams to string together three 10-win seasons in a row (Clemson, Alabama, Oklahoma, Georgia, Ohio State) that much more impressive.

 

Again, I completely agree about no truly elite wins. It's hard to make a rational argument on the other side. But I don't think ND's record since 2017 is solely based on a "soft" schedule. They have played a good number of Top 25 teams and have beaten most of them. They just can't beat the elite teams. So, while I appreciate BK for where he has taken the program, I realize that he's probably not the guy to lead ND to a National Championship. But hopefully he proves everyone wrong next November against Clemson.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with what you're saying about BK's record against elite teams. There is absolutely no denying that. But I don't agree with the notion that ND is padding its stats against weak teams. In the last 38 games (start of 2017), ND has played 16 teams that finished the year ranked in the final AP Top 25 (using the current Top 25 for 2019, so subject to change). So, in 42% of its games since the start of 2017, ND has played a team that finished the year ranked in the final AP Top 25. That's really good. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I would think that would be at or near the top among all programs nationally. To me, that makes the fact that ND is one of 6 teams to string together three 10-win seasons in a row (Clemson, Alabama, Oklahoma, Georgia, Ohio State) that much more impressive.

 

Again, I completely agree about no truly elite wins. It's hard to make a rational argument on the other side. But I don't think ND's record since 2017 is solely based on a "soft" schedule. They have played a good number of Top 25 teams and have beaten most of them. They just can't beat the elite teams. So, while I appreciate BK for where he has taken the program, I realize that he's probably not the guy to lead ND to a National Championship. But hopefully he proves everyone wrong next November against Clemson.

 

I will admit my wording of “padding” was a little harsh. There are some wins of some “top 25 fringe teams”. Nothing that gets me that excited though. But my point on big games and top 10 wins remains the same. And those are the wins that define your program. This is why I have said and agree with your point that BK is a good coach and not a great/elite coach. There are a few other guys out there I would rather take a chance on to see if they could be elite/great at ND. I’ve seen enough of BK to know what we’ve got.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with what you're saying about BK's record against elite teams. There is absolutely no denying that. But I don't agree with the notion that ND is padding its stats against weak teams. In the last 38 games (start of 2017), ND has played 16 teams that finished the year ranked in the final AP Top 25 (using the current Top 25 for 2019, so subject to change). So, in 42% of its games since the start of 2017, ND has played a team that finished the year ranked in the final AP Top 25. That's really good. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I would think that would be at or near the top among all programs nationally. To me, that makes the fact that ND is one of 6 teams to string together three 10-win seasons in a row (Clemson, Alabama, Oklahoma, Georgia, Ohio State) that much more impressive.

 

Again, I completely agree about no truly elite wins. It's hard to make a rational argument on the other side. But I don't think ND's record since 2017 is solely based on a "soft" schedule. They have played a good number of Top 25 teams and have beaten most of them. They just can't beat the elite teams. So, while I appreciate BK for where he has taken the program, I realize that he's probably not the guy to lead ND to a National Championship. But hopefully he proves everyone wrong next November against Clemson.

 

Completely agree with this, it's a very well thought out rational thought. I dont know why it has to be one extreme or the other. Kelly doesnt necessarily have to be fired tomorrow but it's ok if you're not completely satisfied with this 10-2 season. It doesnt mean you're an irrational fan with unrealistic expectations to say that the 2 biggest games they lost so it feels hollow.

 

Kelly wins the games hes supposed to and in doing so has built up a pretty impressive record the last 3 seasons. That's not nothing but it not all it seems either considering his record in the elite games and has 2 really really embarrassing losses as well. If this is Kelly's ceiling then it's a fine spot to be in the next 4 seasons or so that hes here. I dont know why it's not ok to just be ok with him, accept that hes probably not going to get better or worse and that we'll average 10 wins the next 4 years and then hope he leaves the cupboard stocked for the next guy who hopefully can take that next step thanks in part to what kelly has built.

 

You dont fire a guy who has his program in the 90th percentile but it's not completely ludicrous to expect more as an nd fan given the rich history of the program.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I am really torn. Kelly will not get a Natty at ND. However, are we willing to take a chance with another coach and his scheme and personnel which would likely set us back a season or two?

 

We have recruits coming in that are better, people now expect us to win 10+ a year, and we are much more respectable as a program now versus 5+ years ago; really since Lou. We will not win a title though.

 

So I think I am leaning toward giving Kelly the extension and wait for the new guy such as Fleck to prove themselves.

 

Quinn does need to go though.

 

I don’t think it’s a given he can’t win a title. He got to the Playoff, and while they were outclassed, he’s a lot closer than a new hire would be. It’s like being a mountain climber, getting 9/10 of the way to the summit then deciding to start from the beginning with someone new.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I don’t think it’s a given he can’t win a title. He got to the Playoff, and while they were outclassed, he’s a lot closer than a new hire would be. It’s like being a mountain climber, getting 9/10 of the way to the summit then deciding to start from the beginning with someone new.

 

For me, expecting a 58 year old coach just a few years from retirement to finally figure it out after 30 years as a head coach is like expecting a 35 year old NFL RB to have a MVP season. It could happen but probably won't.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My last thought on Kelly and I’m done wiling this topic.

As we all know, Kelly is t going anywhere so this is useless topic. But, if I’m Jack, I keep Kelly for next year. I would keep his staff together, thus, keeping the recruiting class together. BUT, I tell Kelly it’s do or die next year. We need to get into the playoffs and we need to win at least one game.

That means, he would most likely had beaten Clemson next year and one playoff team to get to the championship-validating his stay.

If He doesn’t do any of those things(highly likely), then I shop around at Urban, Peterson, Stoops whoever. Because right now, their are some good coaches available.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Its clear we have momentum and are building something here.

 

Here's some momentum for you:

 

How many times in the past 60 years has ND managed to lose to a team by 30 points that lost by 30 to another team in the same season?

 

Answer: Three times in 60 years. This year to Michigan (who got blown out by OSU) the loss to Miami in 2017 by 33 (who lost to Clemson by 35) and Weis 3-9 team's loss to Michigan (who lost by 32 to Oregon).

 

Momentum my ***. Kelly stinks up the joint in a major way routinely, but he's OK because he beats all the teams (and there's a lot of them) with less talent? I've had 10 years of this crap. I dread 3-5 more. We're gonna get a mostly crappy slate of ACC teams and tomato cans with Navy and he's still gonna lose to everybody better and have some embarrassing loss. There is no way to justify how he crapped the bed at UM and Miami. His teams didn't even compete. I cannot understand how anybody can see sunshine in the midst of his obvious coaching flaws.

 

The thing I dread most is if he's given enough time to get the all time ND wins record. He doesn't deserve it and it is a spit in the eye of ND's tradition. It will be the final nail in the coffin for me.

Edited by Frankus
Link to post
Share on other sites
I don’t think it’s a given he can’t win a title. He got to the Playoff, and while they were outclassed, he’s a lot closer than a new hire would be. It’s like being a mountain climber, getting 9/10 of the way to the summit then deciding to start from the beginning with someone new.

 

Is it really that black and white though? It's not necessarily a given that if a new guy comes in everything plummets back to 6-6 and they have to build up again from there. It's possible that kelly is only capable of climbing 9/10 of the way to the summit and unable to finish so he has to hand it off to someone else to take that last step

Link to post
Share on other sites
I don’t think it’s a given he can’t win a title. He got to the Playoff, and while they were outclassed, he’s a lot closer than a new hire would be. It’s like being a mountain climber, getting 9/10 of the way to the summit then deciding to start from the beginning with someone new.

 

If giving a coach who is close more time to get to the top is the best strategy (as opposed to bringing in someone new who has to start from scratch), why have most championships since the 1990's been won by a coach who won his first in three or less years?

 

I believe that the only two who took 8 or more years were Dabo Sweeney and Mack Brown.

 

Basically, based on the data (even if you exclude Saban and Meyer), it appears that you have to "start from the beginning" with someone else to win...

 

BTW, right now, the four top schools in the CFP rankings:

 

LSU - Outside coach in 3rd full season at school

Ohio St - Inside coach in 1st full season at school

Clemson - Inside coach in 11th full season at school won NC in 8th & 10th full season

Georgia - Outside coach in 4th season at school

Edited by jbrown_9999
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...