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Phil has to be the starter


nd2000

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Book is awful. He is playing like a deer in the headlights since Clemson and no defense worth a lick respects him.

 

We won't beat anybody decent with him at QB. Give the other guy a go.

 

He hasn’t been good, but he’s capable of playing better. That said, I still think he’s lost the job.

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I’m ok with going to him, but he’s a bandaid. Neither are that good. Plus, we can’t ignore how awful the Defense was, they shouldn’t get a pass

 

How awful what defense was? If you're talking ND's defense, I don't get you. The Defense kept them in the game. Gave up 1 TD and 2 FGs.

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Exactly. He’s not the worst QB in CF like some want to paint him, but he’s not playing good enough to remain the starter.

 

 

#48 sounds about right and is nowhere near the level we need to make the jump. It is what we have become used to though. The level of QB play at ND for the past 10 years has been astoundingly bad.

 

 

Put an elite QB into Kelly's team (assuming he doesn't break them) and we could go very far.

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#48 sounds about right and is nowhere near the level we need to make the jump. It is what we have become used to though. The level of QB play at ND for the past 10 years has been astoundingly bad.

 

 

Put an elite QB into Kelly's team (assuming he doesn't break them) and we could go very far.

 

After 10 years of not being able to recruit a “top” qb do you think it is a case that BK can’t recruit one or is it that top QBs won’t consider coming here because of BK? Or, have we actually had good QBs already here and he doesn’t develop them?

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After 10 years of not being able to recruit a “top” qb do you think it is a case that BK can’t recruit one or is it that top QBs won’t consider coming here because of BK? Or, have we actually had good QBs already here and he doesn’t develop them?

 

The problem is...Kelly HAS actually shown he can recruit top tier QB's

 

Dayne Crist - 2007 Elite 11 (Kelly didn't recruit him, but just wanted to add to show the sheer amount of talent we've had at QB)

 

Everett Golson - 2010 Elite 11

Gunner Kiel - 2011 Elite 11 Finalist

Malik Zaire - 2012 Elite 11

Deshone Kizer - 2013 Elite 11 Finalist

Brandon Wimbush - 2014 Elite 11

Avery Davis - 2016 Elite 11 Finalist

 

The REAL problem is Kelly can't develop QBs. It's the Kelly Law: First year, his QB typically does well, second year, they regress, and then another QB controversy. Rinse and repeat for 10 years

 

I've pointed this out many times before and had people jump down my throat when I said in 2017 that Wimbush was never going to be a good QB and first pointed to this alarming trend in Kelly's QB development

 

We've had a break of Elite 11 QBs for a while because I think QB recruits were catching on. But it looks like we finally got another Elite 11 finalist in Drew Pyne of Class of 2020

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The problem is...Kelly HAS actually shown he can recruit top tier QB's

 

Dayne Crist - 2007 Elite 11 (Kelly didn't recruit him, but just wanted to add to show the sheer amount of talent we've had at QB)

 

Everett Golson - 2010 Elite 11

Gunner Kiel - 2011 Elite 11 Finalist

Malik Zaire - 2012 Elite 11

Deshone Kizer - 2013 Elite 11 Finalist

Brandon Wimbush - 2014 Elite 11

Avery Davis - 2016 Elite 11 Finalist

 

The REAL problem is Kelly can't develop QBs. It's the Kelly Law: First year, his QB typically does well, second year, they regress, and then another QB controversy. Rinse and repeat for 10 years

 

I've pointed this out many times before and had people jump down my throat when I said in 2017 that Wimbush was never going to be a good QB and first pointed to this alarming trend in Kelly's QB development

 

We've had a break of Elite 11 QBs for a while because I think QB recruits were catching on. But it looks like we finally got another Elite 11 finalist in Drew Pyne of Class of 2020

 

You make some valid points. And, I think in turn you proved my overarching point that in either of these cases, it is on BK and he needs to go.

 

10 years is enough. We have given him plenty of time and have a gigantic sample size to show and analyze his results.

 

Time to move on.

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You make some valid points. And, I think in turn you proved my overarching point that in either of these cases, it is on BK and he needs to go.

 

10 years is enough. We have given him plenty of time and have a gigantic sample size to show and analyze his results.

 

Time to move on.

 

Yup. Maybe ND can find some up-and-coming coordinator like Davie, or some D-1-proven coach like Willingham to come in and clean this mess up.

 

I’m not a BK apologist, but there just aren’t many people around who can take a team to a national championship. Very few. And probably none available.

 

Too many other threads about who would replace him. I’ll personally take 10-2 seasons, with the occasional 12-0. Not many coaches are going to consistently bring that to the table. BK seems to be in that realm now.

 

Take a chance on someone else? Maybe. But maybe that yields the next Davie Willingham era.

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Yup. Maybe ND can find some up-and-coming coordinator like Davie, or some D-1-proven coach like Willingham to come in and clean this mess up.

 

I’m not a BK apologist, but there just aren’t many people around who can take a team to a national championship. Very few. And probably none available.

 

Too many other threads about who would replace him. I’ll personally take 10-2 seasons, with the occasional 12-0. Not many coaches are going to consistently bring that to the table. BK seems to be in that realm now.

 

Take a chance on someone else? Maybe. But maybe that yields the next Davie Willingham era.

 

You’re right. There is definitely the possibility we get a coach who fails. But, trying to be great in anything in life takes risks. It takes people stepping out of the norm and willing to take that chance to be great and not be ordinary. That is why it’s difficult. I’m willing to take that chance.

 

Also, I’d be ok with what you listed above if it meant we actually showed up and won big games. But we never do under BK and that is a real issue I have with him. Who cares if you go 10-2 or occasionally 12-0 if you literally beat no one!!

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Yup. Maybe ND can find some up-and-coming coordinator like Davie, or some D-1-proven coach like Willingham to come in and clean this mess up.

 

I’m not a BK apologist, but there just aren’t many people around who can take a team to a national championship. Very few. And probably none available.

 

Too many other threads about who would replace him. I’ll personally take 10-2 seasons, with the occasional 12-0. Not many coaches are going to consistently bring that to the table. BK seems to be in that realm now.

 

Take a chance on someone else? Maybe. But maybe that yields the next Davie Willingham era.

it seems everyone thinks if ND gets a new coach then all of a sudden ND will be playing in the NC game every other year, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. BK has turned ND around, yeah ND isn't a NC team right now but ND is not the 7 win team it was under davie, Willingham and weis (have we forgotten about those years and how we would all say "just wait until next year"). as a fan im very grateful for what BK has done (sure I wish he wouldn't get blown out by Michigan or Miami) by turning ND into a playoff contending team every year. it's like lou holtz said about ND fans, if you win the fans complain you didn't win 10 games, then when you win 10 games the fans complain you didn't play in the NC game, then when you make the NC game the fans complain you didn't win the NC, then when you win the NC the fans complain you didn't win by enough points.

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it seems everyone thinks if ND gets a new coach then all of a sudden ND will be playing in the NC game every other year, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. BK has turned ND around, yeah ND isn't a NC team right now but ND is not the 7 win team it was under davie, Willingham and weis (have we forgotten about those years and how we would all say "just wait until next year"). as a fan im very grateful for what BK has done (sure I wish he wouldn't get blown out by Michigan or Miami) by turning ND into a playoff contending team every year. it's like lou holtz said about ND fans, if you win the fans complain you didn't win 10 games, then when you win 10 games the fans complain you didn't play in the NC game, then when you make the NC game the fans complain you didn't win the NC, then when you win the NC the fans complain you didn't win by enough points.

 

Yeah, but Lou Holtz won a NC, and if there had been a playoff system back then, would have had a realistic chance to win in 4- 5 straight years. Kelly is way below that bar He has raised the bar from Willingham/Davie/Weis, but that is among the darkest periods in ND football history. ND should be able to get a top tier coach, with winning head coaching experience at a good program. 10 years is long enough. It's time for Kelly to go. ND can't live in fear of its next choice. Good leadership never does that.

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it seems everyone thinks if ND gets a new coach then all of a sudden ND will be playing in the NC game every other year, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. BK has turned ND around, yeah ND isn't a NC team right now but ND is not the 7 win team it was under davie, Willingham and weis (have we forgotten about those years and how we would all say "just wait until next year"). as a fan im very grateful for what BK has done (sure I wish he wouldn't get blown out by Michigan or Miami) by turning ND into a playoff contending team every year. it's like lou holtz said about ND fans, if you win the fans complain you didn't win 10 games, then when you win 10 games the fans complain you didn't play in the NC game, then when you make the NC game the fans complain you didn't win the NC, then when you win the NC the fans complain you didn't win by enough points.

 

Is the goal to win ten games or a NC?

 

If you are happy with ten wins, then Kelly is probably a good enough coach for you even though he averages 9 wins a season.

 

If you want to see ND win a NC, then based on the past 9 years, I strongly believe that Kelly is not the coach to do that and I want to see a different coach. That coach may or may not win a NC but I believe there is a better chance to win a NC with a new coach rather than Kelly. The new coach may flame out but the bottom at ND seems to be 7 wins a year. Is that really much of a risk?

 

Bob Davie: Averaged 7.0 wins a year at ND

Ty Willingham: Averaged 7.0 wins a year at ND

Charlie Weis: Averaged 7.0 wins a year at ND

 

Brian Kelly: Averages 9.0 wins a year at ND

 

15 years from now, I will not remember that the 2017 ND team went 10-3 but I still remember the 1988 championship season. I would rather that ND has a 5% chance at a NC so they might win once every 20 years than have a 0% chance and never win.

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Is the goal to win ten games or a NC?

 

If you are happy with ten wins, then Kelly is probably a good enough coach for you even though he averages 9 wins a season.

 

If you want to see ND win a NC, then based on the past 9 years, I strongly believe that Kelly is not the coach to do that and I want to see a different coach. That coach may or may not win a NC but I believe there is a better chance to win a NC with a new coach rather than Kelly. The new coach may flame out but the bottom at ND seems to be 7 wins a year. Is that really much of a risk?

 

Bob Davie: Averaged 7.0 wins a year at ND

Ty Willingham: Averaged 7.0 wins a year at ND

Charlie Weis: Averaged 7.0 wins a year at ND

 

Brian Kelly: Averages 9.0 wins a year at ND

 

15 years from now, I will not remember that the 2017 ND team went 10-3 but I still remember the 1988 championship season. I would rather that ND has a 5% chance at a NC so they might win once every 20 years than have a 0% chance and never win.

 

I think the goal of the administration is to balance academics and athletics, making ND a top tier school for all students and while continuing to bring in big dollars.

They are doing that right now.

A national championship in football is of course one goal. But that’s a narrow goal when considered from a University-wide perspective. That rubs a lot of football fans the wrong way, but it’s pretty close to the truth I think.

BK winning 10 games a season will keep TV revenue high, undergraduate applications high, undergraduate selectivity high, sales of NF related items high, and nationwide interest and loathing high.

Taking a chance on a Fleck could indeed enhance all of that. But if that instead reverts to 7 wins a season for 5 years, all of that is jeopardized.

Being a fan is one thing. Being someone who has to factor all the other things into decisions and actually be responsible for the outcomes of those decisions is another.

A fan’s goal is not necessarily aligned with a University’s.

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I think the goal of the administration is to balance academics and athletics, making ND a top tier school for all students and while continuing to bring in big dollars.

They are doing that right now.

A national championship in football is of course one goal. But that’s a narrow goal when considered from a University-wide perspective. That rubs a lot of football fans the wrong way, but it’s pretty close to the truth I think.

BK winning 10 games a season will keep TV revenue high, undergraduate applications high, undergraduate selectivity high, sales of NF related items high, and nationwide interest and loathing high.

Taking a chance on a Fleck could indeed enhance all of that. But if that instead reverts to 7 wins a season for 5 years, all of that is jeopardized.

Being a fan is one thing. Being someone who has to factor all the other things into decisions and actually be responsible for the outcomes of those decisions is another.

A fan’s goal is not necessarily aligned with a University’s.

 

Giving all of the above its due, I believe that Alabama believes that winning a NC has had a $100+ million impact on the school.

 

From a academic perspective, our local high school (academically one of the top 5 in Indiana) regularly has more kids attend Alabama than than Michigan, Kentucky, and Illinois combined. Assuming that this is happening elsewhere, this should help Alabama raise their academic ranking at some point.

 

Butler saw their applications increase by 400% after their Final Four runs. It also became "cool" for local kids to attend Butler.

 

So while 10 wins a year will maintain the status quo, actually winning the NC would most likely have a huge impact.

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I think the goal of the administration is to balance academics and athletics, making ND a top tier school for all students and while continuing to bring in big dollars.

They are doing that right now.

A national championship in football is of course one goal. But that’s a narrow goal when considered from a University-wide perspective.

 

Winning a NC is a "goal" like the average fan wanting an all nighter with the Playboy Playmate of the Year. The sad thing is that with all their shouting about their academics goals, they are still second tier there as well. They were #19 according to US News in 1996 and are now #15. They are about as likely to be in the Ivy realm of top universities as the fan is to get the Playmate.

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Was listening to a ND podcast today and one of the hosts made a really good point. He mentioned how Kelly has been publicly down on Phil in the media. Saying how he has no confidence in him executing better than Book. He said that this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that you should NOT do to your backup QB. He speaks so highly of Book and goes on and on and on defending him and saying that there's no QB controversy and how Phil basically has no chance to start over him.

 

Why would you do this? Book is the veteran that has started 20 or so games...BOOK is the one you should be hard on and held to a higher standard. BOOK is the one you should be trying to light a fire under. You shouldn't be shredding the confidence of your young backup before he even gets a chance. Kelly should be doing all that he can to BOOST Phil's confidence but he is doing the opposite.

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Winning a NC is a "goal" like the average fan wanting an all nighter with the Playboy Playmate of the Year. The sad thing is that with all their shouting about their academics goals, they are still second tier there as well. They were #19 according to US News in 1996 and are now #15. They are about as likely to be in the Ivy realm of top universities as the fan is to get the Playmate.

 

Blistering truth right here. And the only way they’ll get to that Ivy League status is to get rid of football altogether. Good luck with that..

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Giving all of the above its due, I believe that Alabama believes that winning a NC has had a $100+ million impact on the school.

 

From a academic perspective, our local high school (academically one of the top 5 in Indiana) regularly has more kids attend Alabama than than Michigan, Kentucky, and Illinois combined. Assuming that this is happening elsewhere, this should help Alabama raise their academic ranking at some point.

 

Butler saw their applications increase by 400% after their Final Four runs. It also became "cool" for local kids to attend Butler.

 

So while 10 wins a year will maintain the status quo, actually winning the NC would most likely have a huge impact.

 

Winning national championships is the only way Alabama attracts students. Their ranking in US News is 153. They throw money at students to get them to attend. Several kids from my kids' high school have had full rides, room, board, computers, everything, given to them to attract them to Alabama, and those weren't the most highly ranked kids in the classes.

ND's ranking is 15. While some posters here think a ranking of 15 is 'second tier', I guess they haven't had kids applying to college.

 

ND's administration understands the value of winning a lot of games.

But, as I've mentioned before, ND has tried the 'hire the new guy' thing and failed miserably. Alabama tried that and failed miserably until they landed Saban. Nebraska tried and tried and tried. Texas has tried and tried.

We are all in agreement that we want ND to win a natty. We are all in agreement, I think, that BK probably isn't going to deliver that.

We aren't all in agreement about whether they should get rid of Kelly. I don't think they should, but hey, that's just one opinion in the wilderness.

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Giving all of the above its due, I believe that Alabama believes that winning a NC has had a $100+ million impact on the school.

 

From a academic perspective, our local high school (academically one of the top 5 in Indiana) regularly has more kids attend Alabama than than Michigan, Kentucky, and Illinois combined. Assuming that this is happening elsewhere, this should help Alabama raise their academic ranking at some point.

 

Butler saw their applications increase by 400% after their Final Four runs. It also became "cool" for local kids to attend Butler.

 

So while 10 wins a year will maintain the status quo, actually winning the NC would most likely have a huge impact.

 

Going to a school bc they’re good at sports is stupid.

Edited by ELDER06
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it seems everyone thinks if ND gets a new coach then all of a sudden ND will be playing in the NC game every other year, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. BK has turned ND around, yeah ND isn't a NC team right now but ND is not the 7 win team it was under davie, Willingham and weis (have we forgotten about those years and how we would all say "just wait until next year"). as a fan im very grateful for what BK has done (sure I wish he wouldn't get blown out by Michigan or Miami) by turning ND into a playoff contending team every year. it's like lou holtz said about ND fans, if you win the fans complain you didn't win 10 games, then when you win 10 games the fans complain you didn't play in the NC game, then when you make the NC game the fans complain you didn't win the NC, then when you win the NC the fans complain you didn't win by enough points.

 

Exactly and this idea a new coach will come in and take them from 9-10 wins to a National Title team in 3-4 yrs is moronic. Winning at ND is harder than any other major program except Stanford. So whatever turnaround happened at Bama, UGA, Clemson isn’t the same blue print for ND. Now, the ultimate goal should be to win a title

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Exactly and this idea a new coach will come in and take them from 9-10 wins to a National Title team in 3-4 yrs is moronic. Winning at ND is harder than any other major program except Stanford. So whatever turnaround happened at Bama, UGA, Clemson isn’t the same blue print for ND. Now, the ultimate goal should be to win a title

 

Brian Kelly has averaged 4 losses a year for 9 years.

 

Per Albert Einstein, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

 

What is more "moronic"? To think that Kelly will will magically become a different coach after 30 years, 10 at ND? Or that a different coach might do more with the same situation while acknowledging that there is a good chance that a new coach's performance will be the same or worse?

 

By so aggressively supporting Kelly, you are on record of being satisfied with Kelly's 4 losses a year performance.

 

What it seems that everyone else in this thread has been saying other than you is that they would rather take a chance at a new coach who MIGHT do better than to stick with Kelly and his FOUR LOSSES A YEAR average.

 

BTW, when Stanford got a new coach, they managed to go from 1-11 to 12-1 in just four years. So coaching can make a difference in just 3-4 years even at a school with different standards. Why is it so difficult to believe that a different coach MIGHT average better than 9-4 at ND? Why are you all in with Kelly?

Edited by jbrown_9999
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Brian Kelly has averaged 4 losses a year for 9 years.

 

Per Albert Einstein, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

 

What is more "moronic"? To think that Kelly will will magically become a different coach after 30 years, 10 at ND? Or that a different coach might do more with the same situation while acknowledging that there is a good chance that a new coach's performance will be the same or worse?

 

By so aggressively supporting Kelly, you are on record of being satisfied with Kelly's 4 losses a year performance.

 

What it seems that everyone else in this thread has been saying other than you is that they would rather take a chance at a new coach who MIGHT do better than to stick with Kelly and his FOUR LOSSES A YEAR average.

 

BTW, when Stanford got a new coach, they managed to go from 1-11 to 12-1 in just four years. So coaching can make a difference in just 3-4 years even at a school with different standards. Why is it so difficult to believe that a different coach MIGHT average better than 9-4 at ND? Why are you all in with Kelly?

 

And now how is Stanford doing? Somehow, I don’t think Shaw is on the hot seat. Winning 10 games every yr isn’t realistic, there’s going to be more ups and downs bc of the limits in recruiting. I think Kelly gives ND the best chance to win a title in the next 5 yrs. PJ Fleck is an overrated dbag who will undoubtedly flame at his next more high profile gig.

Edited by ELDER06
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