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Indiana's Religious Freedom Act


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Very well stated. This is a true American principle, and the intention of the founding fathers. Although I have no belief in a god and support the rights of the Gay and Lesbian community, I fully support a privately owned business refusing business on religious principles. The Constitution doesn't guarantee that your feelings won't be hurt. Move on to an accommodating business that will provide the service in question. Let the free market decide. Again, good post.

 

In a perfect world you are right, I'm a little more cynical. For every private owned business that wish to operate under their religious belief, there will be a ton of others businesses that will use that clause for their own personal gain or agenda outside of religion. So I do see where the Government has to try and balance this issue. Businesses can/do/should get sued for discrimination so you have to make sure your laws don't become a legal loophole or a way to circumvent being brought up on charges (of discrimination). That would suck for the religion to have these type of people sullying their faith as well.

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That would suck for the religion to have these type of people sullying their faith as well.

 

That literally happens every day, which is why there are anti-religion people here. I would like to see more people lose their ignorance and not just judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a few.

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This is a fine post.

 

Freedom is what we all want, as long as you aren't free to offend me. I really don't see the issue. If a bakery doesn't want to make cakes for gay weddings, why should they have to? Word will get out and people will choose to visit the bakery or not. The people will speak. If a black store owner doesn't want to serve whites, who cares. If a Muslim owner won't serve Christians, who cares. Plenty of other places will.

 

It seems the minority has this idea that as long as they get what they want, freedom is great. Only when they are told no do issues arise.

 

We live in a free society. I'm free to do something within reason, you are free not to like it. Now obviously that has limits when you get to real discrimination, burning down houses, lynching, beatings etc. but not making a cake? Come on.

 

I just saw this thread and am getting in on it quite late. But, this law goes beyond cakes and weddings. If an employer decides to not hire/fire an employee based on these same examples, it is discrimination, period. This law would protect them.

 

There are currently laws in place to prevent discrimination such as the ADA in all states and some which protect people based on sexual preference in others.

 

There are many examples protected by this law. A doctor refusing to treat a patient, a landlord refusing to rent to a qualified potential tenant, etc. There are many more, but all protected by this law.

 

Furthermore, this law isn't only about the LGBT community. ANY person can be refused service for ANY reason outside religious convictions. Some churches actually teach black skin is a curse from God because Cain killed Abel. You get the point.

 

Religious zealotry should be the focus of conversation in America.

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I just saw this thread and am getting in on it quite late. But, this law goes beyond cakes and weddings. If an employer decides to not hire/fire an employee based on these same examples, it is discrimination, period. This law would protect them.

 

There are currently laws in place to prevent discrimination such as the ADA in all states and some which protect people based on sexual preference in others.

 

There are many examples protected by this law. A doctor refusing to treat a patient, a landlord refusing to rent to a qualified potential tenant, etc. There are many more, but all protected by this law.

 

Furthermore, this law isn't only about the LGBT community. ANY person can be refused service for ANY reason outside religious convictions. Some churches actually teach black skin is a curse from God because Cain killed Abel. You get the point.

 

Religious zealotry should be the focus of conversation in America.

 

Religious zealotry has been a topic of conversation in this and every other country pretty much since the beginning of recorded history. Do you think that Christians have been protected and get away with whatever they/we want? I can assure you that no group of people is more discriminated and infringed upon in America right now than right wing conservative evangelical Christians.

 

Everyone wants to be free to do what they want now and anyone that actually tries to frame things in the context of a higher moral obligation is met with scorn because my beliefs aren't convenient when two people want to do whatever the heck they want and have it called whatever they want to have it called.

 

Discrimination, racism, hate, do you think these things are based in or caused by religion? I would say that that view is ignorant. How many Atheist humanitarian organizations are out there helping the sick, the poor, the hungry? How many LGBT groups are out there trying to help the marginalized homeless, the persecuted and martyred church abroad? How many liberal anti-religious pat on the back "I'm enlightened" groups are out there making a difference anywhere but their own backyard?

 

The law has been all but struck down so the conversation is moot, but I would probably try to provide a little bit more content before I chalked up this law that was passed through the process of Democracy as religious zealotry. I am not a zealot because I wouldn't be interested in providing services to a gay wedding, I am a conscientious objector. And that is the same for millions of people across America. Blanket discrimination is practiced every single day in America against blacks, whites, gays, Christians, Jews, Catholics, red heads, blonds, freckled, etc...

 

The only time it seems to be an issue is when some ignorant Christian says something about gay marriage. And then suddenly they don't deserve to have that small business they built through smart management, financial sacrifice, customer service, capitalism. They are too ignorant.

 

*smh* The true ignorance in this country is truly astounding. Everyone has to fit into the socially acceptable box. It is ok for LGBTs to do what they want but when a Christian tries to invoke the protection of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights people come out of the woodwork handing out pitchforks and torches. How can you say that anyone should be free to marry anyone but Christians (Also Muslims, Jews, etc) shouldn't be free to refuse service to them? It just makes no sense to me.

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I can assure you that no group of people is more discriminated and infringed upon in America right now than right wing conservative evangelical Christians.

 

I might go with the middle class.

 

It's not infringing or discriminating just because you don't get your way. Feel free to be against gay marriage but you can't force your beliefs on the rest of the world.

 

 

Discrimination, racism, hate, do you think these things are based in or caused by religion? I would say that that view is ignorant. How many Atheist humanitarian organizations are out there helping the sick, the poor, the hungry?

 

Good point. But those meals come with a Bible. So is all the Humanitarian stuff good will or part of a way to lure people into their religion?

 

 

The only time it seems to be an issue is when some ignorant Christian says something about gay marriage. And then suddenly they don't deserve to have that small business they built through smart management, financial sacrifice, customer service, capitalism. They are too ignorant.

 

Owning and operating a business in this country is a privilege, not a right. To do so you need certain permits, license and certifications-- and you also can't discriminate. That's just the cost of doing business. It may seem unfair to people of certain beliefs but we have to look at the big picture and make sure we don't open Pandora's box.

 

*smh* The true ignorance in this country is truly astounding. Everyone has to fit into the socially acceptable box. It is ok for LGBTs to do what they want but when a Christian tries to invoke the protection of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights people come out of the woodwork handing out pitchforks and torches. How can you say that anyone should be free to marry anyone but Christians (Also Muslims, Jews, etc) shouldn't be free to refuse service to them? It just makes no sense to me.

 

Lets see, gay people want the right to get married. Christian Evangelicals want the right to decide who can marry. To be honest, I think the gay community is being more reasonable on this subject. Now I know the issue is much bigger then that but that's for another day i guess. When you bring out the Constitution and Bill of Rights, don't forget the Declaration of Independence and a little passage that reads:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

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The gaystapo got in front of this news story and controlled the narrative. Plain and simple. The bill in its original form was not an offensive bill, it was written as a defensive bill to give some religious protections at the state level. It was a coup de tat by the gaystapo that wanted to bury mike pence. People acted as is you could discriminate freely with no recourse. Fact of the matter is you only had a right to defense in regards to a lawsuit. Stop watching network news and please educate yourselves on this.

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Nice. Way to come in with a snarky signature line while hiding under someone's coat. It is ok to disagree, but do try to add something to the conversation as opposed to being passive aggressive, it is sad.

 

Damn, buddy. And to think I complimented you just a few posts ago. As to snarky signature line, your problem is with Franklin and Jefferson, not me. Deal with it.

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Grammar police
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I might go with the middle class.

I agree, I was kind of lumping them together. Sorry.

 

It's not infringing or discriminating just because you don't get your way. Feel free to be against gay marriage but you can't force your beliefs on the rest of the world.

 

I am not forcing anything, I am not saying that you have to pretend gay marriage doesn't exist, I am just saying I am not interested in supporting it or endorsing it.

 

Good point. But those meals come with a Bible. So is all the Humanitarian stuff good will or part of a way to lure people into their religion?

 

No one has to read the Bible to earn their meal. It might be luring or bating, but it is not compulsion and people still have the right to say no, refuse to participate, etc...

 

Owning and operating a business in this country is a privilege, not a right. To do so you need certain permits, license and certifications-- and you also can't discriminate. That's just the cost of doing business. It may seem unfair to people of certain beliefs but we have to look at the big picture and make sure we don't open Pandora's box.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I see owning a business as a right as it is equally accessible to all people. IF a business owner wants to run his business a certain way and he or she ends up failing as a result, that is business.

 

Lets see, gay people want the right to get married. Christian Evangelicals want the right to decide who can marry. To be honest, I think the gay community is being more reasonable on this subject.

 

I have no problem with a gay couple being afforded the same rights and restrictions as a heterosexual couple. The definition of marriage is the issue, and obviously something that was created as a RELIGIOUS institution has now simply become a contract.

 

Now I know the issue is much bigger then that but that's for another day i guess. When you bring out the Constitution and Bill of Rights, don't forget the Declaration of Independence and a little passage that reads:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

The Declaration of Independence says people are entitled to the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. The pursuit of happiness doesn't mean everyone can just do anything and it is all ok. And let's not overlook the part of the passage that says all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their creator. Without a creator and creation, the rest becomes moot. If we are all evolved from tree climbing apes then we are entitled to nothing, and we are endowed with nothing.

 

But then, at the end of the day this is all my opinion. Take it and four bucks to Starbucks and you can get a cup of coffee.

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I am not forcing anything, I am not saying that you have to pretend gay marriage doesn't exist, I am just saying I am not interested in supporting it or endorsing it.

 

Cool, I get it now.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I see owning a business as a right as it is equally accessible to all people. IF a business owner wants to run his business a certain way and he or she ends up failing as a result, that is business.

 

You can't open a medical practice without being doctor. You need a permit to sell alcohol. There are certain rules and regulations you need to follow to operate a business. You can't run a restaurant that can't pass a health inspection. You will be shut down--that's the law. You can't choose to keep a filthy kitchen and fail on it's own merit. You don't get that right.

 

I have no problem with a gay couple being afforded the same rights and restrictions as a heterosexual couple. The definition of marriage is the issue, and obviously something that was created as a RELIGIOUS institution has now simply become a contract.

 

I'm not so sure. There are other places on this planet where it's not about religion. There are arrangement by the families. Even Mobsters Carlo Gambino and Tommy Lucchese arranged marriage for their kids to marry to strengthen their bond. Some places men work as a servent for several years for the father of the women he wishes to marry. That's a contract. Buddhists view marriage as what the law of the land deems acceptable.

 

The Declaration of Independence says people are entitled to the pursuit of happiness, not guaranteed happiness. The pursuit of happiness doesn't mean everyone can just do anything and it is all ok. And let's not overlook the part of the passage that says all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their creator. Without a creator and creation, the rest becomes moot. If we are all evolved from tree climbing apes then we are entitled to nothing, and we are endowed with nothing.

 

If robbing a bank for money to buy nice things makes me happy, am I allowed to pursue it? That's a silly notion but that's also what government have to safeguard us from. People taking advantage of loopholes. I find a lot of Christians choose the Constitutions as such when it serves a purpose, but when iit works against them they want to claim their beliefs supersedes the laws of man and state.

 

I agree with you probably more then I appear to but I think you have to be very careful with religion and government. That's why they don't have pray in school. It opens up a huge can of worms.

 

But then, at the end of the day this is all my opinion. Take it and four bucks to Starbucks and you can get a cup of coffee.

 

This was good stuff. An open polite conversation in this day and age is worth more then four bucks. I drink Folgers. I thought only those hippie tree hugging LIBS like Nickman drink starbucks:razz:

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Religious zealotry has been a topic of conversation in this and every other country pretty much since the beginning of recorded history. Do you think that Christians have been protected and get away with whatever they/we want? I can assure you that no group of people is more discriminated and infringed upon in America right now than right wing conservative evangelical Christians.

 

Everyone wants to be free to do what they want now and anyone that actually tries to frame things in the context of a higher moral obligation is met with scorn because my beliefs aren't convenient when two people want to do whatever the heck they want and have it called whatever they want to have it called.

 

Discrimination, racism, hate, do you think these things are based in or caused by religion? I would say that that view is ignorant. How many Atheist humanitarian organizations are out there helping the sick, the poor, the hungry? How many LGBT groups are out there trying to help the marginalized homeless, the persecuted and martyred church abroad? How many liberal anti-religious pat on the back "I'm enlightened" groups are out there making a difference anywhere but their own backyard?

 

The law has been all but struck down so the conversation is moot, but I would probably try to provide a little bit more content before I chalked up this law that was passed through the process of Democracy as religious zealotry. I am not a zealot because I wouldn't be interested in providing services to a gay wedding, I am a conscientious objector. And that is the same for millions of people across America. Blanket discrimination is practiced every single day in America against blacks, whites, gays, Christians, Jews, Catholics, red heads, blonds, freckled, etc...

 

The only time it seems to be an issue is when some ignorant Christian says something about gay marriage. And then suddenly they don't deserve to have that small business they built through smart management, financial sacrifice, customer service, capitalism. They are too ignorant.

 

*smh* The true ignorance in this country is truly astounding. Everyone has to fit into the socially acceptable box. It is ok for LGBTs to do what they want but when a Christian tries to invoke the protection of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights people come out of the woodwork handing out pitchforks and torches. How can you say that anyone should be free to marry anyone but Christians (Also Muslims, Jews, etc) shouldn't be free to refuse service to them? It just makes no sense to me.

 

Oh, yes. The persecuted AMERICAN Christian. I have one word for you. ISIS. Why don't you go spend a day with them and then come back and tell me about your miserable Christian experience in America. Don't forget to take your mustard-seed-sized faith with you as I'm sure it will protect you.

 

You're not persecuted in America for being a Christian. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans ARE CHRISTIANS. You're simply irritated by the minority not accepting your P.O.V. on all fronts.

 

And God forbid anyone accept any other religions. If anyone is persecuted in America on the basis of religion, it's Muslims.

 

Moving on. You think Christians are the only group who give? LMFAO. Ever work in a restaurant Eddie? I have. I did for the first 15 years of my career and I can tell you from experience, Christians are some of the absolute WORST tippers alive. They'd rather leave you a tract than a tip, IF they leave anything at all. That is a FACT. Their duty is in tithing and then their done.

 

Want more FACTS about philanthropy? CLICK HERE

 

Christians, SMH. You guys love to play the victim.

 

Listen, I don't have a problem with Christians. I have a problem with BULLSH#$. Let's get back on topic.

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Oh, yes. The persecuted AMERICAN Christian. I have one word for you. ISIS. Why don't you go spend a day with them and then come back and tell me about your miserable Christian experience in America. Don't forget to take your mustard-seed-sized faith with you as I'm sure it will protect you.

 

You're not persecuted in America for being a Christian. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans ARE CHRISTIANS. You're simply irritated by the minority not accepting your P.O.V. on all fronts.

 

And God forbid anyone accept any other religions. If anyone is persecuted in America on the basis of religion, it's Muslims.

 

Moving on. You think Christians are the only group who give? LMFAO. Ever work in a restaurant Eddie? I have. I did for the first 15 years of my career and I can tell you from experience, Christians are some of the absolute WORST tippers alive. They'd rather leave you a tract than a tip, IF they leave anything at all. That is a FACT. Their duty is in tithing and then their done.

 

Want more FACTS about philanthropy? CLICK HERE

 

Christians, SMH. You guys love to play the victim.

 

Listen, I don't have a problem with Christians. I have a problem with BULLSH#$. Let's get back on topic.

 

How in the hell would you know if someone is a christian in a restauraunt? Im considered a christian and i generally tip 20-30 percent if the service is good, so do most of my friends and family. BTW, you sound like every angry atheist i have encountered on the internet.

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How in the hell would you know if someone is a christian in a restauraunt? Im considered a christian and i generally tip 20-30 percent if the service is good, so do most of my friends and family. BTW, you sound like every angry atheist i have encountered on the internet.

 

http://mikeduran.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/20bucks2-1023x477.jpg

 

Christians are easy to spot on Sunday.

 

I'm not angry Nick. I'm quite happy. I have a wonderful wife and kids.

 

I spent the first thirty plus years of my life believing in Christ. I'm 42 now and not an atheist. My belief is in God, not religion, not Jesus, God. I believe in the God who created everything and put life in our lungs and nothing more. Man has complicated what should be simple. I don't believe in Salvation through the cross, baptism, or any other man-made tradition.

 

I am basing this on years of thought, study, and common sense.

 

We should get back on topic. But in the meantime:

 

Why Are Christians Such Bad Tippers?

 

'Sundays Are The Worst'

 

Waiters share horror stories about Sunday church crowd

 

Receipt Raises Question

 

Are Christians Notoriously Bad Tippers?

 

Restaurant Tipping Guide for Christians

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You can't open a medical practice without being doctor. You need a permit to sell alcohol. There are certain rules and regulations you need to follow to operate a business. You can't run a restaurant that can't pass a health inspection. You will be shut down--that's the law. You can't choose to keep a filthy kitchen and fail on it's own merit. You don't get that right.

 

To me a right is something appointed to everyone equally, God or Government given, as it were. If it is something only given to a select group, it is a privilege. But then, it is not really about right vs. privilege, it is about the fact that when you run a business you have to follow the rules, right? The question is whether you should be able to choose who you do and not do business with. Whether it is a right or a privilege I don't think compulsion should be the mechanism that drives my business. If a gang member comes into my gun store and has the legal right to buy a firearm, should I be compelled to sell it to him knowing in my conscience that he is going to use it to ill purpose? No, I would be morally obligated to say no. Gays are not gang members, but sin is sin.

 

 

I'm not so sure. There are other places on this planet where it's not about religion. There are arrangement by the families. Even Mobsters Carlo Gambino and Tommy Lucchese arranged marriage for their kids to marry to strengthen their bond. Some places men work as a servent for several years for the father of the women he wishes to marry. That's a contract. Buddhists view marriage as what the law of the land deems acceptable.

 

The above mentioned mobsters were Catholic. The Bible has instances of people working for future in laws for their daughters, it happens. That is a contract with the parent to marry the daughter, not a marriage contract. A marriage is a vow before God to stay with another person as long as you both shall live. Buddhists are Buddhists, how they view marriage is irrelevant. This is about how Christians view marriage.

 

If robbing a bank for money to buy nice things makes me happy, am I allowed to pursue it? That's a silly notion but that's also what government have to safeguard us from. People taking advantage of loopholes. I find a lot of Christians choose the Constitutions as such when it serves a purpose, but when iit works against them they want to claim their beliefs supersedes the laws of man and state.

 

You can pursue it and choose to suffer the consequences of the lifestyle you have chosen. Christians don't try to work around the Constitution, we want equal protection of our beliefs. This bill is a REACTION to gay marriage legislation. We don't recognize gay marriage, but the state and federal government does so in light of the fact that democracy failed (Seeing as how gay marriage was lawfully voted down by the majority in every state) we are forced to seek protection of our beliefs in other ways. Ok, gays can marry, why should I have to go to a gay wedding or bake them a cake? If it is ok for them to marry why the hell should I have to go and cater to them as well? If there is another bakery across the street where they can get the same goods and services what difference does it make if I choose to protest through act of objection? It is a peaceful protest and I fail to see how it makes a difference to anyone but me. People just like to get their panties in a bunch because they should be able to walk into any establishment and be waited on hand and foot. America is one of the very few countries in the world that would even ENTERTAIN such a notion.

 

I agree with you probably more then I appear to but I think you have to be very careful with religion and government. That's why they don't have pray in school. It opens up a huge can of worms.

 

People who are not religious deserve as much protection as people who are religious. I don't think that any child should be forced to pray, but equally I do not feel any child should be forced not to pray. The problem with the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, is that they are legal documents written without the notion of today's issues in mind. Amending these items is throwing good money after bad, but starting over is even worse because corruption now is the norm. Politics are bad stuff. Religion and politics most certainly should be separate, although they seldom are.

 

Incidentally, when President Obama spoke at my church before the 2008 election he stood on stage before our congregation and defined marriage as a man and a woman. Obviously he has become "enlightened" since then.

 

[ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJhQBZ1La0w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJhQBZ1La0w[/ame]

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Oh, yes. The persecuted AMERICAN Christian. I have one word for you. ISIS. Why don't you go spend a day with them and then come back and tell me about your miserable Christian experience in America. Don't forget to take your mustard-seed-sized faith with you as I'm sure it will protect you.

 

You're not persecuted in America for being a Christian. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans ARE CHRISTIANS. You're simply irritated by the minority not accepting your P.O.V. on all fronts.

 

And God forbid anyone accept any other religions. If anyone is persecuted in America on the basis of religion, it's Muslims.

 

Moving on. You think Christians are the only group who give? LMFAO. Ever work in a restaurant Eddie? I have. I did for the first 15 years of my career and I can tell you from experience, Christians are some of the absolute WORST tippers alive. They'd rather leave you a tract than a tip, IF they leave anything at all. That is a FACT. Their duty is in tithing and then their done.

 

Want more FACTS about philanthropy? CLICK HERE

 

Christians, SMH. You guys love to play the victim.

 

Listen, I don't have a problem with Christians. I have a problem with BULLSH#$. Let's get back on topic.

 

You came in at the end of topic and now are you just talking trash. Go ahead and have your beliefs the way you want. I am interested in a civil discussion, not your sad pissing contest. God Bless.

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Gays are not gang members, but sin is sin.

 

If sin is the measure we use to decide who to do business with, then you're out too. Romans 3:23

 

Just stop. There are laws which prevent bigotry. Before long, sexual preference will be protected in all 50 states as well. How will you look then? Even Jesus hung out with sinners. True Christians will use the opportunity to be a light in the darkness, to witness according to their beliefs.

 

This law is a temper tantrum in the face of gay marriage, period.

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You came in at the end of topic and now are you just talking trash. Go ahead and have your beliefs the way you want. I am interested in a civil discussion, not your sad pissing contest. God Bless.

 

What trash? Actual persecution? Actual philanthropy stats? I respect your beliefs. You're hot for Christ and I like that. I'm not trying to **** further than you. I stand by my words.

 

I apologize for sounding like a dick. I've always been told that and I don't think I can change now. :-) I do respect your beliefs Eddie.

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What trash? Actual persecution? Actual philanthropy stats? I respect your beliefs. You're hot for Christ and I like that. I'm not trying to **** further than you. I stand by my words.

 

I apologize for sounding like a dick. I've always been told that and I don't think I can change now. :-) I do respect your beliefs Eddie.

 

I have come across as caustic once or twice, I understand. Best of luck to you :)

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And still no response to the persecution or philanthropy claims you made.

 

Shocking.

 

Honestly, being a Christian turned Atheist you have an agenda above and beyond what we are discussing, your beef is with Christianity and that is far outside of what we are discussing. I am very well versed in the persecution of the Christian abroad both because I pay attention to the news about ISIS and other terrorist organizations, and also because I spent 8 years in the US Army. I am also aware that there are other people in the world who do good, not just Christians. I am not ignorant. I am educated in the ways of the world, politics, religions, and other viewpoints. I was not born a Christian. Actually I am the opposite of you. I spent 30 years searching and trying out different spiritual practices and beliefs before I came to know Jesus.

 

The reason that I chose to ignore the other points in your first post is because I did not want to get engaged in a fight that seemed to be escalating into an angry internet flame war. That kind of discussion simply brings a thread to a close and deters people from adding intelligent content to a good topic. When you start picking at me and calling me out and goading me and being sarcastic I am disinclined to continue to try to engage in a rational discussion.

 

That being said, Google will answer your questions better than I will and is less likely to be offended by your demeanor. Feel free to respond as you see fit, I will not respond but neither will I block you. I have nothing else to say to you but best of luck.

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