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  #101  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:03 PM
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The Snowden affair reveals a level of incompetency on the part of the NSA that I didn't expect. TSA, yes - NSA, no. But when any govt agency gets big they will end up making some bad hires.

Tens of thousands of people walking around with top secret clearance? C'mon might as well declassify it or get rid of those people.
You can't catch em all man. Particularly when its new hires with remarkable skill sets. I mean, there are teenagers still in high school walking around there. Most people who work there are aware of how sensitive the information is. Tens of thousands is a relatively small number when you think about how large the mission is. It doesn't matter how many people are read on to a particular clearance. They all understand the penalty of releasing it into the public. Not to mention, top secret doesn't mean you get access to everything TS. It's called "need to know" and only the people who work the particular mission know the specifics of it.
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  #102  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:21 PM
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The problem is that regardless of what he says now, he is no longer credible. He lied and said that he made 200k/yr. with Booz to inflate his status with the media(it was $120 which is pretty modest for a gov. contractor in MD/No. VA). Then he lied and said that it was his plan all along to infliltrate the NSA and expose them. First of all, there is an in depth polygraph that he would have to pass with specific questions regarding intent to expose secrets. Second, he would have had no way of knowing where he was going to be assigned within the agency after being hired. The part of the agency that has to do with his "secrets" is about 15% of the overall effort. He would have had to know exactly what division he needed to be assigned to and exactly what position within that division to request. Nobody applying at the agency would know about mission responsibilities/what info they'd be exposed to ahead of time. He is a liar.
All true. And I am sure IF he gets caught and paraded around, his credibility will be the tool by which he is ushered into a dark room somewhere never to be heard from again and our government will assure us that all is well, nothing to see here, move along. It will still be fun to watch though.
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  #103  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:44 PM
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The problem is that regardless of what he says now, he is no longer credible. He lied and said that he made 200k/yr. with Booz to inflate his status with the media(it was $120 which is pretty modest for a gov. contractor in MD/No. VA).

Then he lied and said that it was his plan all along to infliltrate the NSA and expose them. First of all, there is an in depth polygraph that he would have to pass with specific questions regarding intent to expose secrets. Second, he would have had no way of knowing where he was going to be assigned within the agency after being hired. The part of the agency that has to do with his "secrets" is about 15% of the overall effort. He would have had to know exactly what division he needed to be assigned to and exactly what position within that division to request. Nobody applying at the agency would know about mission responsibilities/what info they'd be exposed to ahead of time. He is a liar.
So, if he is lying why would the government be so interested in getting him in custody and bringing him to trial. Just let him keep reporting BS to the media to throw adversaries off on what we are actually doing...
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  #104  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:46 PM
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Well for one you don't have a security clearance which means that your knowledge of anything the NSA is doing is completely secondary, either coming from the established liar Snowden or from the media's interpretation of the liar's statements. I can do my best to generalize without saying anything classified, but at the end of the day you are still going to be without about 75% of the information you need to draw a well-informed conclusion.
I have a TS clearance but I understand you can't divulge classified information on a public internet forum. Generalize as needed....
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  #105  
Old 06-27-2013, 06:50 PM
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So, if he is lying why would the government be so interested in getting him in custody and bringing him to trial. Just let him keep reporting BS to the media to throw adversaries off on what we are actually doing...
I said he was a liar. There is, of course, some truth to what he said, and that is why he is being prosecuted. I didn't mean that everything he said was a lie. As DIRNSA stated, there are data mining efforts underway and they do target many types of communications. Snowden's assertion that all americans are targeted at the agency's whim or that emails/calls are being infiltrated without FISA approval are lies.

He is basically exaggerating what is being done to make it sound more outrageous and to garner support for his cause. Besides that, he spoke about hacking China, UK efforts, etc. and that alone would be enough for espionage. Those cases, of course, had nothing to do with informing americans and were intended to facilitate his movement.
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  #106  
Old 06-28-2013, 09:55 PM
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I've had numerous friends and family involved In a lot of this stuff and I can assure everyone that they are not nefarious and sinister individuals. They are people just like you and me. They worry about their kids, bills, school safety and their football teams. Their retirement and current income is tied to their ability to keep their mouth shut. Once their stuff becomes unclassified and they can talk then you'll usually find that there really isn't that much great stuff to talk about. Also, by the time they can discuss it, it is so old news that no one is interested. I'm more concerned about cellphone sales people bc they have direct access to your pics that you upload on your phone. I'm just saying, the private sector actually has direct access to your private info more than the government guys and they aren't getting warrants. Bottom line is if you don't want stuff out there then get rid of your electronics.
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  #107  
Old 06-29-2013, 04:55 PM
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Why was the elected officials of the Republican Party and the Tea Party spied on but not any in the Democratic party?
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  #108  
Old 06-29-2013, 04:55 PM
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Why were the elected officials of the Republican Party and the Tea Party spied on but not any in the Democratic party?
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  #109  
Old 06-29-2013, 05:16 PM
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Why were the elected officials of the Republican Party and the Tea Party spied on but not any in the Democratic party?
Two completely separate issues. Please do real research before starting the right-wing talking points.

IRS targeted "tea-party" party groups and organizations that had anything to do with 9/11. Seems fair to me. I mean the Tea Party is all about not paying taxes ect.

The head of the IRS who led this operation was a Bush appointee and republican.

I think all religious groups should be targeted too, there are many who deserve the tax-exempt status but many who take advantage.

But you may be talking about Homeland security targeting right-wing groups like skin-heads, KKK, white-natioanlist groups, "patriot" movement", anti-gay, and the countless of other conservative hate groups that may share your ideals? I dont know.

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  #110  
Old 06-29-2013, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim2Dokes View Post
Two completely separate issues. Please do real research before starting the right-wing talking points.

IRS targeted "tea-party" party groups and organizations that had anything to do with 9/11. Seems fair to me. I mean the Tea Party is all about not paying taxes ect.

The head of the IRS who led this operation was a Bush appointee and republican.

I think all religious groups should be targeted too, there are many who deserve the tax-exempt status but many who take advantage.

But you may be talking about Homeland security targeting right-wing groups like skin-heads, KKK, white-natioanlist groups, "patriot" movement", anti-gay, and the countless of other conservative hate groups that may share your ideals? I dont know.
Your tone and attitude gives your argument no credibility. If that is what you result to make your point, you are no better than them.
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  #111  
Old 06-29-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim2Dokes View Post
Two completely separate issues. Please do real research before starting the right-wing talking points.

IRS targeted "tea-party" party groups and organizations that had anything to do with 9/11. Seems fair to me. I mean the Tea Party is all about not paying taxes ect.

The head of the IRS who led this operation was a Bush appointee and republican.

I think all religious groups should be targeted too, there are many who deserve the tax-exempt status but many who take advantage.

But you may be talking about Homeland security targeting right-wing groups like skin-heads, KKK, white-natioanlist groups, "patriot" movement", anti-gay, and the countless of other conservative hate groups that may share your ideals? I dont know.
To add to what you say, most of the outrage now comes from the left because 501(c) applications by groups friendly to their views were scrutinized as well. The left is upset because the instructions from Issa were too look only at the tea party issue and not the whole issue. That is all the report addressed and ignored the same scrutiny the IRS was doing to left wing oriented groups.


The inspector is trying the ole "but I was just following orders" routine. Maybe so but it is hard to understand why there was nothing on the targeting of left wing 501(c) groups. The left is not screaming about profiling but
instead about the use of a committee (think Issa) for political purposes only and not governance.
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  #112  
Old 06-29-2013, 06:46 PM
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Your tone and attitude gives your argument no credibility. If that is what you result to make your point, you are no better than them.

How do you know my tone and attitude? I was just clearing up the facts for duck. where were you replying to some of the posts on here comparing Obama to Hitler ect.? Not to mention how does my post corralate with right wing hate groups?
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  #113  
Old 06-29-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim2Dokes View Post
Two completely separate issues. Please do real research before starting the right-wing talking points.

IRS targeted "tea-party" party groups and organizations that had anything to do with 9/11. Seems fair to me. I mean the Tea Party is all about not paying taxes ect.

The head of the IRS who led this operation was a Bush appointee and republican.

I think all religious groups should be targeted too, there are many who deserve the tax-exempt status but many who take advantage.

But you may be talking about Homeland security targeting right-wing groups like skin-heads, KKK, white-natioanlist groups, "patriot" movement", anti-gay, and the countless of other conservative hate groups that may share your ideals? I dont know.
Lol. You're trying too hard. Perhaps you want to bring back your "political plotter graph" to try and impress. If you want to be taken seriously you have to do better than this. Middle school level history/government course could help
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  #114  
Old 06-29-2013, 11:41 PM
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Lol. You're trying too hard. Perhaps you want to bring back your "political plotter graph" to try and impress. If you want to be taken seriously you have to do better than this. Middle school level history/government course could help
Are you disagreeing with my statements or just in the interest of lodging personal attacks because our politcal philosophy is different? Do you really want to go there? I am not the one that lost mod status on a message board because of my crazy political rants.
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  #115  
Old 06-30-2013, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim2Dokes View Post
Two completely separate issues. Please do real research before starting the right-wing talking points.

IRS targeted "tea-party" party groups and organizations that had anything to do with 9/11. Seems fair to me. I mean the Tea Party is all about not paying taxes ect.

The head of the IRS who led this operation was a Bush appointee and republican.

I think all religious groups should be targeted too, there are many who deserve the tax-exempt status but many who take advantage.

But you may be talking about Homeland security targeting right-wing groups like skin-heads, KKK, white-natioanlist groups, "patriot" movement", anti-gay, and the countless of other conservative hate groups that may share your ideals? I dont know.
1- You lose all credibility when you do this. Why does the left constantly have to go back to Bush to defend Barry?

2- Name some that take advantage of their tax exempt status please. Its real easy to lob an accusation out there, but who specifically is doing what you say.

On a side note, I consider myself to be "conservative" and you think that I share ideals with the KKK and skin heads. That is the most reprehensible disgusting thing that you can come up with. Seriously you are the one that has a heart filled with hate. How can you even make assumptions like that. You need to seriously think about saying things like that. I would be less offended if you would just call me a moron than assume all conservative people think like that. Epic fail.
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  #116  
Old 06-30-2013, 01:56 AM
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1- You lose all credibility when you do this. Why does the left constantly have to go back to Bush to defend Barry?

2- Name some that take advantage of their tax exempt status please. Its real easy to lob an accusation out there, but who specifically is doing what you say.

On a side note, I consider myself to be "conservative" and you think that I share ideals with the KKK and skin heads. That is the most reprehensible disgusting thing that you can come up with. Seriously you are the one that has a heart filled with hate. How can you even make assumptions like that. You need to seriously think about saying things like that. I would be less offended if you would just call me a moron than assume all conservative people think like that. Epic fail.
How did I make that comparison? I do not know you. You are making a general assumption to a personal question. Is this becoming a right vs left gang up? Seems that way.

Second point, how many links would you like me to list? Seems a simple religous groups tax fraud Google search would prove my point.

Last edited by Jim2Dokes; 06-30-2013 at 03:30 AM.
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  #117  
Old 06-30-2013, 02:23 AM
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Are you disagreeing with my statements or just in the interest of lodging personal attacks because our politcal philosophy is different? Do you really want to go there? I am not the one that lost mod status on a message board because of my crazy political rants.
Wow. You got me. I lost some sleep over that. Probably as much as you did when you found out you would have to file for unemployment
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  #118  
Old 06-30-2013, 05:48 AM
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Your tone and attitude gives your argument no credibility. If that is what you result to make your point, you are no better than them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickman54 View Post
1- You lose all credibility when you do this. Why does the left constantly have to go back to Bush to defend Barry?

2- Name some that take advantage of their tax exempt status please. Its real easy to lob an accusation out there, but who specifically is doing what you say.

On a side note, I consider myself to be "conservative" and you think that I share ideals with the KKK and skin heads. That is the most reprehensible disgusting thing that you can come up with. Seriously you are the one that has a heart filled with hate. How can you even make assumptions like that. You need to seriously think about saying things like that. I would be less offended if you would just call me a moron than assume all conservative people think like that. Epic fail.
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Wow. You got me. I lost some sleep over that. Probably as much as you did when you found out you would have to file for unemployment
Your tone and attitude gives your argument no credibility. If that is what you result to make your point, you are no better than them.
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  #119  
Old 06-30-2013, 08:08 PM
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Lol. You're trying too hard. Perhaps you want to bring back your "political plotter graph" to try and impress. If you want to be taken seriously you have to do better than this. Middle school level history/government course could help
The talking points always switches to "Bush Did It".

The next one is "It Never Happened".

Now it is being reported that we have bugged the EU offices here in the US and Europe. But really, Bush put the bugs in before he left office.

Last edited by AlabamaDuck; 06-30-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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  #120  
Old 06-30-2013, 08:27 PM
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Hmmm for a hero and patriot whose motives are reportedly limited to informing American citizens, he sure is releasing a lot of info that is completely outside that scope. Weird.
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  #121  
Old 06-30-2013, 10:50 PM
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if I recall there was a lot of self-righteous indignation when we discovered the Israeli's were spying on us, their ally.

So now its POT KETTLE as I suspect it always was----I truly doubt spying on the EU was some new initiative of this white house , it is , as so much of the SURVEILANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX---THE SIC is----- , part of the new order of "need to know everything" that has evolved out the Cold War and received a steroid jolt after 9/11!

Its somewhat ironic that during the Cold War--when what was at stake underpinning all of our cold war behavior, some of that including our third world meddling rather disgraceful , nonetheless justification for it was the potential of thermo-nuclear global war---a near EXTINCTION event.

Now, with a much smaller stake , we have decided to include nearly everyone and everything on the planet as a potential surveillance target, a dynamic raise in kind &intensity from the surveillance needs of the cold war with IMHO a smaller justification.

To be fair--a lot of this heightening of domestic & international surveillance is flowing from the inertia of HAVING THE TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT----But there is also is developing a MINDSET , a modestly paranoid mindset IMO, that if we somehow don't know , don't moniter, don't have access to almost every states decision making apparatus, and don't know , don't monitor , don't maintain the essential data from MOST EVERY INDIVIDUALS communications---WE ARE AT HIGH RISK!!

That is a difficult position to maintain. The war on terror , like the war on drugs or the war on cancer is one that likely can never really end---so technology pushed forward--surveillance at extraordinary levels continues to be demanded --and ROUND & ROUND WE GO WHERE SHE STOPS NOBODY KNOWS.

That's the catch--where and when does our need to know as a STATE ever taper off----will we INSTITUTIONALIZE SURVEILLANCE to such an extent that it becomes its own end , that 30 years from now , when many don't even recall or weren't born during 9/11, FIND SURVEILLANCE ON A GLOBAL SCALE WILL BE GREATER THEN TODAY BY MANY LEVELS OF INTENSITY ---and without any real need to justify or provide some contextual rationalization for it---IT WILL SIMPLY BECOME THE WAY IT IS---

IMHO that is the likely evolution of this odd blend of technology and global insecurity ---that will be unstoppable by anyone---a NEW PARADIME for the 21st century that will be done be EVERY STATE & EVERY CORPORATION , and will likely be institutionalized so firmly , objections , oversight , questions of any kind by anyone simply FADE AWAY.

Its evolution fellas , social evolution , and its not all that attractive or appealing a place to go , and its total ramifications are at best hazy & unclear......but it is where we are going and I doubt anything can change that.

aloha's
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  #122  
Old 07-01-2013, 06:53 PM
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How do you know my tone and attitude? I was just clearing up the facts for duck. where were you replying to some of the posts on here comparing Obama to Hitler ect.? Not to mention how does my post corralate with right wing hate groups?
Huh? Do you have trouble maintaining focus or just your grip on reality?
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  #123  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:03 AM
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Besides, all of the people complaining about legality should read up on FISA. The judges are appointed by the chief justice of the SCOTUS, inclusive of three judges whom serve as appeals judges, with a secondary option of the government/DOJ being able to appeal to the Supreme Court, if they disagree with a decision.

Given that the Obama administration has no direct say in those appointments and besides John Roberts is right-wing, I'd say we have a balance of power here to oversee that our privacy rights are adequately balanced with our need for safety against the legalities of probable cause and the 4th amendment.

Congress wrote these laws, inclusive of the Patriot Act, which was approved by your elected officlals. So far, I don't see any glaring violations of the law or of our Constitution.

Having said all of that, I find that Mr. Snowden is a puffed up, narcissistic oaf because as you can see from Vladimir Putin's statement, even Russia doesn't buy his altruistic motives. Instead, he's the aggressor here whom wants to blackmail the US into playing his game by continuing to leak embarrassing information that damages our country, our citizens, our foreign relations, and our national security.

Our president has been smeared, criticized, embarrassed before by many Americans, so Snowden should know better than to think this man is going to stoop to Snowden's level and bullying to engage in this stupid game with him. Ignoring him is the right thing to do. He only ought to come out and have a discussion with the American people about Snowden's claims and the realities of our national security.

Finally, if any of you honestly think that none of our adversaries or other democracies around the world engage in espionage (and corporate espionage) in the same or worse manner than the United States, then you must be naive and probably still believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, too.
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  #124  
Old 07-02-2013, 01:42 PM
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I'm providing a lot of reading/source material here, but if you really want to be informed, you'll read it all.

The United States and their allies created the War on Terror: "They [the CIA] told me these people were fanatical, and the more fierce they were the more fiercely they would fight the Soviets," he said. "I warned them that we were creating a monster."

CIA/NATO false flag operation- Operation Gladio

The CIA experiments in mind control. Sounds like they have pure intentions, right guys?

480,000 private contractors have top secret NSA clearance. Because that's totally keeping us safe.

John Stockwell, the highest ranking CIA official to go public, discusses secret wars in Angola, Central America, and Vietnam. Because we aren't in enough unnecessary wars as it is:

"About a third of the whole CIA budget went to media propaganda operations. ...We're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars a year just for that.....close to a billion dollars are being spent every year by the United States on secret propaganda." Operation Mockingbird- Reasons like this are why the media is talking about Snowden instead of having a productive debate about the leaked information.

And of course, Iran-Contra shows the CIA has zero regard for domestic or international law. “The common ingredients of the Iran and Contra policies were secrecy, deception, and disdain for the law...the United States simultaneously pursued two contradictory foreign policies — a public one and a secret one”- Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair

Let's learn from history. These are well-cited, well-sourced facts. The fact is, without public scrutiny, we cannot trust these powerful, secret government agencies. Power inherently corrupts, and as much as you guys want to justify the system of checks and balances on the NSA/PRISM, it doesn't exist. It may take a lot of work to get the information, sure, but the FISA courts turn down significantly less than 1% of requests.

Snowden's information has still not put anyone in any danger. We were spying on German civilians... I'd be pretty upset if I were them as well. He's not being ignored at all- Biden personally tried to talk Ecuador into not granting him the human right of asylum. There's a difference between what Obama says and what he does.

4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." There is no probable cause to sieze the digital information of every American, and if you know anything about government, you know that the Constitution trumps everything else. It is illegal, no matter how justified it is by the PATRIOT Act.

Transcript of Snowden's statement in Moscow:

Quote:
One week ago I left Hong Kong after it became clear that my freedom and safety were under threat for revealing the truth. My continued liberty has been owed to the efforts of friends new and old, family, and others who I have never met and probably never will. I trusted them with my life and they returned that trust with a faith in me for which I will always be thankful.

On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me. For decades the United States of America has been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.

In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

I am unbowed in my convictions and impressed at the efforts taken by so many.

Edward Joseph Snowden

Last edited by ND3; 07-02-2013 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Added some info, formatting
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Old 07-02-2013, 03:46 PM
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VCDomer VCDomer is offline
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Originally Posted by echo88 View Post
Besides, all of the people complaining about legality should read up on FISA. The judges are appointed by the chief justice of the SCOTUS, inclusive of three judges whom serve as appeals judges, with a secondary option of the government/DOJ being able to appeal to the Supreme Court, if they disagree with a decision.

Given that the Obama administration has no direct say in those appointments and besides John Roberts is right-wing, I'd say we have a balance of power here to oversee that our privacy rights are adequately balanced with our need for safety against the legalities of probable cause and the 4th amendment.

Congress wrote these laws, inclusive of the Patriot Act, which was approved by your elected officlals. So far, I don't see any glaring violations of the law or of our Constitution.

Having said all of that, I find that Mr. Snowden is a puffed up, narcissistic oaf because as you can see from Vladimir Putin's statement, even Russia doesn't buy his altruistic motives. Instead, he's the aggressor here whom wants to blackmail the US into playing his game by continuing to leak embarrassing information that damages our country, our citizens, our foreign relations, and our national security.

Our president has been smeared, criticized, embarrassed before by many Americans, so Snowden should know better than to think this man is going to stoop to Snowden's level and bullying to engage in this stupid game with him. Ignoring him is the right thing to do. He only ought to come out and have a discussion with the American people about Snowden's claims and the realities of our national security.Finally, if any of you honestly think that none of our adversaries or other democracies around the world engage in espionage (and corporate espionage) in the same or worse manner than the United States, then you must be naive and probably still believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, too.
I don't see that happening for 2 reasons. One...... half of the public won't understand any explanation he could provide, and Two...It will only continue the circus with this idiot and as a biproduct give him credibility. Keep quiet for now... wait..... catch him... then get in motion to repair the damage. I can imagine that China, Russia, Germany, Cuba, North Korea..etc are all having a nice littel giggle over this and plannng how to use it to their advantage politically.
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