Pass Plays-field vision

[FaithInIrishForever]

Really liked Ian Book. He got the most out of his talent and led ND to a lot of wins.

That said, a taller QB that can see the middle of the field without it being a crossing route could mean alot to our tight ends and wide receivers.

Really felt like Book's vision and timing were limited in the middle of the field by the height of the offensive line line, causing roll outs, late reads etc.

[coltssb]

Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever

Really liked Ian Book. He got the most out of his talent and led ND to a lot of wins.

That said, a taller QB that can see the middle of the field without it being a crossing route could mean alot to our tight ends and wide receivers.

Really felt like Book's vision and timing were limited in the middle of the field by the height of the offensive line line, causing roll outs, late reads etc.

Exactly right and why I’ve been screaming at getting a taller qb. When you watch replays you constantly see plays being missed down the middle. It’s one look and instantly go sideline or scramble. Not a true recipe for success in my mind.

[FaithInIrishForever]

Originally Posted by coltssb

Exactly right and why I’ve been screaming at getting a taller qb. When you watch replays you constantly see plays being missed down the middle. It’s one look and instantly go sideline or scramble. Not a true recipe for success in my mind.

This Jack Coan appears to have better field vision but less arm power and mobility. So I have no clue how it will work out

[irishwavend]

Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever

Really liked Ian Book. He got the most out of his talent and led ND to a lot of wins.

I COMPLETELY disagree with this. He wasted a lot of our talent because he couldn't read a defense. He expected to see guys get open once the play started versus seeing where they'd be open before the snap. He missed Claypool A LOT! He missed a lot of open guys in the Bama game. The thing is, they were only open for a moment, but Book didn't know it. His height only mattered when it required seeing downfield for longer periods.

I prefer qbs who can't run because they have to use their brains to find the open guy. When you have a mobile qb, too often, they rely on their legs as a crutch so they don't fully develop their brains. Book was the quintessential running qb who didn't develop his brain.

Anyway, he wasted a lot of ND talent... I was not happy with Book's mediocrity. If he didn't add the running element, he'd have been Dayne Crist.

[FaithInIrishForever]

Originally Posted by irishwavend

I COMPLETELY disagree with this. He wasted a lot of our talent because he couldn't read a defense. He expected to see guys get open once the play started versus seeing where they'd be open before the snap. He missed Claypool A LOT! He missed a lot of open guys in the Bama game. The thing is, they were only open for a moment, but Book didn't know it. His height only mattered when it required seeing downfield for longer periods.

I prefer qbs who can't run because they have to use their brains to find the open guy. When you have a mobile qb, too often, they rely on their legs as a crutch so they don't fully develop their brains. Book was the quintessential running qb who didn't develop his brain.

Anyway, he wasted a lot of ND talent... I was not happy with Book's mediocrity. If he didn't add the running element, he'd have been Dayne Crist.

For someone who completely disagrees with me, you are saying alot of the same things

Shorter QBs don't often see the vertical throw in the middle of the field.
they bounce out of the pocket alot.


I guess where we disagree is Books Legacy. He won alot. I like winning. You wanted more so the wins he did have by your argument don't matter.

we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[ndfanatic78]

I think you disagree on whether Book could read a defense pre-snap. Not his ability to see over the middle post-snap which would have been nice also. Book never had rhythm or timing throws read correct. I don’t know if that is squarely on him or the coaching as it has been an issue with majority of Kelly’s QBs. I believe we won in spite of Book’s limitations not because he brought anything special.

[Kelly Gruene]

Here were the other QB’s that ND was recruiting in 2016, Book’s year:
Shea Patterson, Jacob Eason, Malik Henry, and Dwayne Haskins.

2 of these are backups in the NFL, one plays wide receiver in the CFL, and one isn’t playing anywhere I think.

Would one of those QB’s have won more games than Book over the same time? Would one of those have taken ND to the playoffs more than twice? Would one of those QB’s have won a national championship over the same time? I think the answer is no to each of those questions. Of course we will never know.

[irishwavend]

Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene

Here were the other QB’s that ND was recruiting in 2016, Book’s year:
Shea Patterson, Jacob Eason, Malik Henry, and Dwayne Haskins.

2 of these are backups in the NFL, one plays wide receiver in the CFL, and one isn’t playing anywhere I think.

Would one of those QB’s have won more games than Book over the same time? Would one of those have taken ND to the playoffs more than twice? Would one of those QB’s have won a national championship over the same time? I think the answer is no to each of those questions. Of course we will never know.

The short answer is yes.

[jmfinsd]

Originally Posted by irishwavend

The short answer is yes.

The short answer to which question? Respectfully disagree. While you may have a point about Book's ability to read defenses, opinion meter goes down if you answer yes to any of those questions. Of course, that's just my opinion.

[Kelly Gruene]

Originally Posted by irishwavend

The short answer is yes.

Help me understand your answer.
Here’s what I see.
Haskins completed his career with the team that recruited him. Over the time he was there, OSU had 7 five star players on offense and 8 on defense. He certainly had a good career at OSU. ND is ND in terms of recruiting. More like Michigan than OSU. You could argue, I suppose, that if Haskins had played at ND, more 5 star recruits would have followed. I doubt that’s true, but I suppose maybe one or two.. which leads me to...

Shea Patterson. Recruited to Ole Miss, transferred to Michigan. During his time there Michigan recruited one 5 star player, other than him, on offense and 4 on defense. It doesn’t look to me like 5 star players followed Patterson to Michigan. If Patterson had been ND’s QB over the last 3 years, you think he would have (a) won more games than Book, (b) taken ND to more than 2 playoffs, and/or (c) won a championship? Playing in the playoffs against OSU, Clemson, and Alabama, each of which had 12-15 five star players? Does ND have that much better coaching than those teams?

Jacob Eason. Not even good enough to complete his career at Georgia. A better QB forced his hand and he transferred to Washington. Didn’t win a championship there either.

Malik Henry was recruited by Florida State. Finished his career at the University of West Georgia. I doubt he would have done more at ND than book did. But we’ll never know.

No matter who ND had at QB over the last few years, given the landscape of where 5 star recruits actually go to play football, I don’t think any of the other QB’s ND was recruiting during Book’s recruiting year would have accomplished more than Book did.

Help me understand why you think otherwise.

[Jersey Irish]

Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever

This Jack Coan appears to have better field vision but less arm power and mobility. So I have no clue how it will work out

Don't discount his arm strength. Think you will find it better than Book's!

[DamshaBua]

Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever

Really liked Ian Book. He got the most out of his talent and led ND to a lot of wins.

That said, a taller QB that can see the middle of the field without it being a crossing route could mean alot to our tight ends and wide receivers.

Really felt like Book's vision and timing were limited in the middle of the field by the height of the offensive line line, causing roll outs, late reads etc.

Height was rarely an issue for Mayfield, Hurts, Tua (same height); Murray is a good 3 inches shorter. Those folks are/were just better. Book was more circumscribed more by physical deficiencies other than stature. The offensive surrounding cast for the above-referenced were also better.

[jbrown_9999]

Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene

Here were the other QB’s that ND was recruiting in 2016, Book’s year:
Shea Patterson, Jacob Eason, Malik Henry, and Dwayne Haskins.

2 of these are backups in the NFL, one plays wide receiver in the CFL, and one isn’t playing anywhere I think.

Would one of those QB’s have won more games than Book over the same time? Would one of those have taken ND to the playoffs more than twice? Would one of those QB’s have won a national championship over the same time? I think the answer is no to each of those questions. Of course we will never know.

Would ND have won more games with a different QB? Probably not but maybe vs Georgia in 2019. We will never know.

Will Book be a backup in the NFL? We will need to wait 8 months or so to see. If not, then you could probably argue that the QBs in the NFL (Eason & Haskins) are better than Book even if they are only backups.

(As far as I can tell, after 11 seasons, Kelly has had one and only one Irish QB take a snap in an NFL regular season game - Kizer who has appeared in only 18 games) For whatever reason, Kelly seems unable to recruit / develop QBs able to play at the next level.

[Domers23]

Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene

Help me understand your answer.
Here’s what I see.
Haskins completed his career with the team that recruited him. Over the time he was there, OSU had 7 five star players on offense and 8 on defense. He certainly had a good career at OSU. ND is ND in terms of recruiting. More like Michigan than OSU. You could argue, I suppose, that if Haskins had played at ND, more 5 star recruits would have followed. I doubt that’s true, but I suppose maybe one or two.. which leads me to...

Shea Patterson. Recruited to Ole Miss, transferred to Michigan. During his time there Michigan recruited one 5 star player, other than him, on offense and 4 on defense. It doesn’t look to me like 5 star players followed Patterson to Michigan. If Patterson had been ND’s QB over the last 3 years, you think he would have (a) won more games than Book, (b) taken ND to more than 2 playoffs, and/or (c) won a championship? Playing in the playoffs against OSU, Clemson, and Alabama, each of which had 12-15 five star players? Does ND have that much better coaching than those teams?

Jacob Eason. Not even good enough to complete his career at Georgia. A better QB forced his hand and he transferred to Washington. Didn’t win a championship there either.

Malik Henry was recruited by Florida State. Finished his career at the University of West Georgia. I doubt he would have done more at ND than book did. But we’ll never know.

No matter who ND had at QB over the last few years, given the landscape of where 5 star recruits actually go to play football, I don’t think any of the other QB’s ND was recruiting during Book’s recruiting year would have accomplished more than Book did.

Help me understand why you think otherwise.

😂 Henry. He was on last chance U. He came off as a selfish, know-it-all, cry baby. He wouldn’t have lasted 2 seconds with Kelly and ND.

[Kelly Gruene]

Originally Posted by jbrown_9999

Would ND have won more games with a different QB? Probably not but maybe vs Georgia in 2019. We will never know.

Will Book be a backup in the NFL? We will need to wait 8 months or so to see. If not, then you could probably argue that the QBs in the NFL (Eason & Haskins) are better than Book even if they are only backups.

(As far as I can tell, after 11 seasons, Kelly has had one and only one Irish QB take a snap in an NFL regular season game - Kizer who has appeared in only 18 games) For whatever reason, Kelly seems unable to recruit / develop QBs able to play at the next level.

I agree.
ND won a lot of games with Book as QB.
Haskins, with the same players and coaches and schedule, might have won a game or two more. Of course he could have lost a close game here or there.
Eason? Maybe the same as Haskins. Possibly.

I don’t believe ND has had a sophisticated offense or a QB who could run one. That point was made clear to me as I watched Alabama dismantle OSU. I had completely underrated ‘Bama’s QB until I saw him make the perfect reads as his receivers went in motion.
Rees doesn’t have the ability yet to design that type of offense, Book probably couldn’t have run it as efficiently, and ND did not have five star talent all over the field like ‘Bama did.

LSU set the low standard for a team winning a cfp-era championship with only having 10 five star players on their roster. ND is lucky to have one or two in a given year. I think that makes a bigger difference than having a guy like Book at QB. Was he the greatest to ever play QB at ND? Of course not. But all he did was win. Until he ran up against teams with five to seven times the numbers of five star players on the field as his team had.

[reneg]

Coan definitely has more arm strength than Book. Book was good at a lot of things, his average arm strength held him back against elite defenses.

[FaithInIrishForever]

Originally Posted by DamshaBua

Height was rarely an issue for Mayfield, Hurts, Tua (same height); Murray is a good 3 inches shorter. Those folks are/were just better. Book was more circumscribed more by physical deficiencies other than stature. The offensive surrounding cast for the above-referenced were also better.

I think you just named a bunch of Heisman winners with NFL starts. But their are a bunch that have similar struggles to Book with college starter potential. I googled average height for NFL QB's and got 6'3 and I think that stands to reason.

[DamshaBua]

Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever

I think you just named a bunch of Heisman winners with NFL starts. But their are a bunch that have similar struggles to Book with college starter potential. I googled average height for NFL QB's and got 6'3 and I think that stands to reason.

I have no idea what the average height is for an NFL starter but I will take your word for it.

My reply was to your general premise that a taller QB would do better, seemingly by the mere fact of being taller. My riposte was to highlight that we need better QBs, whether they are 5'10" like Murray, 6'6" like Lawrence or 6'0" like Book.

Book did get the most out of his talent. But he never sees the field at Alabama or Ohio State. That is a fact. Look at his offer list.

[FaithInIrishForever]

Originally Posted by DamshaBua

I have no idea what the average height is for an NFL starter but I will take your word for it.

My reply was to your general premise that a taller QB would do better, seemingly by the mere fact of being taller. My riposte was to highlight that we need better QBs, whether they are 5'10" like Murray, 6'6" like Lawrence or 6'0" like Book.

Book did get the most out of his talent. But he never sees the field at Alabama or Ohio State. That is a fact. Look at his offer list.

Agreed he was recruited as the back-up QB for Wimbush and Jurkovec who both tried and left.
Believe me if he ran sub 4.5 like Hurts or Murray or had the pocket presence of Baker Mayfield, more schools woulda wanted Book.

As it is he saved us from multiple 7-5 8-4 years without a game manager. I Think he has the ND record in wins. I know the greats played fewer games.

I hope Buchner ends up the guy ND thinks they recruited or we will have similar discussions about pyne or powlus

[DamshaBua]

Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever

Agreed he was recruited as the back-up QB for Wimbush and Jurkovec who both tried and left.
Believe me if he ran sub 4.5 like Hurts or Murray or had the pocket presence of Baker Mayfield, more schools woulda wanted Book.

As it is he saved us from multiple 7-5 8-4 years without a game manager. I Think he has the ND record in wins. I know the greats played fewer games.

I hope Buchner ends up the guy ND thinks they recruited or we will have similar discussions about pyne or powlus

I understand where you are coming from and where you are going.

Ultimately, I just don't understand how ND hasn't been able to land one, not one, of these elite, program-altering kind of QBs. Who was the last 5*, Crist?Kiel (I think he was a 5*).

If Powlus plays, ND has problems. He had to be a favor owed.

Pyne has more talent than Book by a considerable chunk. We'll see, fingers crossed.

[FaithInIrishForever]

Originally Posted by DamshaBua

I understand where you are coming from and where you are going.

Ultimately, I just don't understand how ND hasn't been able to land one, not one, of these elite, program-altering kind of QBs. Who was the last 5*, Crist?Kiel (I think he was a 5*).

If Powlus plays, ND has problems. He had to be a favor owed.

Pyne has more talent than Book by a considerable chunk. We'll see, fingers crossed.

They thought they had one in Gunner. Then they got enamored with the Run pass option, small mobile QB, then we are like shorter QB's have limitations, go get Kizer, well the Mobile QB's are fun, get Wimbush, better have a pro-style back up in Book. Jurovec is the QB of the future. Wait no, its Book, Phil won't stay. Its Book, now maybe Coan.

The purpose of the above paragraph was the result of no identity a buffet style offense etc etc..

[JoeyD]

I'm interested in how Book will play in the senior bowl game/practices this week playing with a different type of offense and skill players

[moostache]

All I can add to this discussion is that in big games, against top defenses Book stank more often than not. The outlier in his career was Clemson @ ND 4th quarter drive and OTs - much of which was outside his other disasters (Clemson in ACC title game, Bama in CFP, Georgia game).

His lack of field vision did seem most acute between the hashes and there were many times this season that he missed wide open seam routes to TEs. The other thing Book did that drove me nuts was the hesitation when he was clearly confused by the defense post snap. He lacked belief in his reads and his arm and his vision and that often led to the circus-style plays (underhand flip to Mayer at UNC was still worst decision I saw in 2020 regardless of outcome).

Book was a fine college QB, he may find success as a Chase Daniel style NFL thief - career back up and practice player who manages to follow a system around for years...but he will not translate to the NFL at all...his weaknesses have utterly floored higher ceiling prospects and his decision making pauses will result in a lot of sacks and INTs at the NFL level...but no one EVER gave me a sniff at the NFL in ANY capacity, so on balance, Ian Book can chalk up another win!!! LOL!