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  #1  
Old 01-21-2019, 04:28 PM
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Default Notre Dame removes Columbus

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Old 01-21-2019, 04:37 PM
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I'm glad you brought that up. Father Jenkins continues to lose my support (not that he or the university cares).

The murals are gorgeous, perhaps offensive to some, but are historic in nature and a depiction of evangelization in the new world. While not factually correct, they do have a place in history and in the history of this university.

I don't agree with a lot of the teachings in the catechism but we must not allow the heritage of Our Lady's Catholic University be altered.
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:53 PM
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I'm glad you brought that up. Father Jenkins continues to lose my support (not that he or the university cares).

The murals are gorgeous, perhaps offensive to some, but are historic in nature and a depiction of evangelization in the new world. While not factually correct, they do have a place in history and in the history of this university.

I don't agree with a lot of the teachings in the catechism but we must not allow the heritage of Our Lady's Catholic University be altered.
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:29 PM
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The murals are gorgeous, perhaps offensive to some, but are historic in nature and a depiction of evangelization in the new world. While not factually correct, they do have a place in history and in the history of this university.
I agree. if you agree or disagree about Columbus it was a part of American history and should be noted in history.

if people are so offended by this and any other paintings or statues at ND why go there, I guess their not to proud to accept a ND degree.

for all ND fans you better get up to ND while you can and see all the paintings and statues before they are all torn down.
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:41 PM
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I understand history and the way perspective changes over time, so I hear what you're saying.

At the same time, in Texas, they are taking Confederate statues and moving them to a museum rather than having them stand open on the campus grounds.

Personally, I can understand why in 2019 some people would have a problem with art works celebrating something offensive to a particular group of people.

Over time, standards change, maybe especially in college environments.
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Old 01-22-2019, 04:36 AM
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I agree. if you agree or disagree about Columbus it was a part of American history and should be noted in history.

if people are so offended by this and any other paintings or statues at ND why go there, I guess their not to proud to accept a ND degree.

for all ND fans you better get up to ND while you can and see all the paintings and statues before they are all torn down.
That's funny. The Columbus painting has nothing to do with my degree nor my father's degree.

Please explain how some administrator's decision to errantly depict Columbus has to do with my degree and why I and other Domers should be proud of it?

History is history but attempting to indoctrinate falsehoods by obstructing people rectifying those falsehoods with non-sensical rambling is laughable.

The painting is history.

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Old 01-22-2019, 01:04 PM
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That's funny. The Columbus painting has nothing to do with my degree nor my father's degree.

Please explain how some administrator's decision to errantly depict Columbus has to do with my degree and why I and other Domers should be proud of it?

History is history but attempting to indoctrinate falsehoods by obstructing people rectifying those falsehoods with non-sensical rambling is laughable.

The painting is history.
I just think its amusing that they are so offended by the paintings but still had no problem attending the university, I guess the paintings weren't that offensive when it came right down to it.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:07 PM
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I just think its amusing that they are so offended by the paintings but still had no problem attending the university, I guess the paintings weren't that offensive when it came right down to it.
Just wait until they want all the religious iconography covered up or tore down because it's too Christian. These are slippery slopes that are being created more and more everyday.
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:19 PM
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Just wait until they want all the religious iconography covered up or tore down because it's too Christian. These are slippery slopes that are being created more and more everyday.
this is my worry also cause once you give in it opens the door for it to happen again.
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:10 PM
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Just wait until they want all the religious iconography covered up or tore down because it's too Christian. These are slippery slopes that are being created more and more every day.
Slippery slope arguments are weak.

No one is going to call for the Catholic iconography to come down (we're a Catholic school remember, not a Christian school).
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:57 PM
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I just think its amusing that they are so offended by the paintings but still had no problem attending the university, I guess the paintings weren't that offensive when it came right down to it.
I went to ND and while I was there I never even saw or knew of the paintings. It wasn't until I started going back to campus years later that I saw and learned about them. I don't really care for the paintings at all. I won't ever get bent out of shape about whatever happens to the paintings. To me, those paintings don't really reflect Notre Dame. They may have a lot to do with the Knights of Columbus, but I don't think they have much to do with the University.
As a Catholic, I could become unhappy if more and more the Church in America turns its back on the Knights, but I don't care if paintings of Columbus in the Administration building at Notre Dame are viewable or not.

Maybe they could find a way to move those paintings to the Knights of Columbus Hall on campus at ND rather than display them in the Ad building(?). They've probably already thought of that I suppose, and it probably isn't feasible.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:03 PM
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Whether you knew about them or not, they're part of the history of the admin building. Just as knowing that it burned down twice, the architecture and art within is all part of this University. It's extremely frustrating the lack of pride in the history of the buildings and campus.

Really it's a reflection of Urban renewal of South bend too. South bend has a tremendous history but little is left to see and preserve. The history museum while nice and quaint doesn't do justice to the many businesses and immigrants that called this place home.

Frankly, look at the Catholic Church in general. The church is and was a big advocate of music, art and architecture. The Vatican alone holds one of the largest collections of art in the world. Some people aren't seeing art as art but as some social statement that is not meant to be judged through the eyes of modern social discourse.

Ars Artis Gratis.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:40 PM
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since they are going to take it down I just hope they don't leave a big empty spot on the wall, hopefully they can hang some other art work up if they have any in storage.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:49 PM
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Whether you knew about them or not, they're part of the history of the admin building. Just as knowing that it burned down twice, the architecture and art within is all part of this University. It's extremely frustrating the lack of pride in the history of the buildings and campus.

Really it's a reflection of Urban renewal of South bend too. South bend has a tremendous history but little is left to see and preserve. The history museum while nice and quaint doesn't do justice to the many businesses and immigrants that called this place home.

Frankly, look at the Catholic Church in general. The church is and was a big advocate of music, art and architecture. The Vatican alone holds one of the largest collections of art in the world. Some people aren't seeing art as art but as some social statement that is not meant to be judged through the eyes of modern social discourse.

Ars Artis Gratis.
I have one son who is an architect, and two others who are history majors in college. We have discussions like this often. Clearly art has played a major roll in depicting and recording history.
Occupants of important buildings often change the interiors of those buildings, whether by replacing existing paintings, knocking down walls, or just adding new paint or wallpaper. That does indeed change the history of those buildings. Does that mean that the current occupants lack pride in the history of the buildings? Maybe. Maybe they see the history in a different context as more information becomes known over time.
I would be upset if they knocked down the Golden Dome. Other than that, I think ND should do whatever they want to do inside the building under the dome. You and I will probably just disagree on this. Sure, that art is part of the history of that building. I just don't think it's that important, and I don't think I value the history of Notre Dame any more or less than you.
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:40 PM
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I don't disagree actually. I have followed Detroit's revival quite a bit and realize that when buildings are older and in threat of ruin, repurposing is a great thing to save a piece of that history.

My problem is the fact that they aren't taking the painting down and replacing them with wonderful, beautiful murals of whatever, it's the fact they're just covering them up as if they don't exist.

I should've more fully developed my idea that Notre Dame is not as engaged with their history as I think they ought to. For instance, I have many books that are from the 50s and 60s depicting old halls and buildings that used to stand. Why doesn't the university contemplate making the history of the campus more accessible?

My idea is to put plaques showing pictures of a building that was previously there. Describe what its use was. Did Rockne have his first kiss in the basement? People eat that stuff up. It doesn't cost that much. It'd be a great project for history and architectural students. It engages people that might tag along for football or basketball games that aren't into sports perhaps.

South Bend has many wonderful half-baked programs for driving tours and walks through the neighborhoods. They need more funding and somethings needs to be done to save the historic neighborhoods from crime before it becomes Chattanooga.
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:24 AM
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I don't disagree actually. I have followed Detroit's revival quite a bit and realize that when buildings are older and in threat of ruin, repurposing is a great thing to save a piece of that history.

My problem is the fact that they aren't taking the painting down and replacing them with wonderful, beautiful murals of whatever, it's the fact they're just covering them up as if they don't exist.

I should've more fully developed my idea that Notre Dame is not as engaged with their history as I think they ought to. For instance, I have many books that are from the 50s and 60s depicting old halls and buildings that used to stand. Why doesn't the university contemplate making the history of the campus more accessible?

My idea is to put plaques showing pictures of a building that was previously there. Describe what its use was. Did Rockne have his first kiss in the basement? People eat that stuff up. It doesn't cost that much. It'd be a great project for history and architectural students. It engages people that might tag along for football or basketball games that aren't into sports perhaps.

South Bend has many wonderful half-baked programs for driving tours and walks through the neighborhoods. They need more funding and somethings needs to be done to save the historic neighborhoods from crime before it becomes Chattanooga.
While we don't have the history of Harvard, Harvard has plaques all over the place where former Presidents and founding fathers lived/studied/etc. all over campus. I visited once and spent a few hours just walking around on a nice day. For a history nerd like myself, it was great.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:18 AM
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I saw a brief video clip of the murals but it was more focused on the reaction and not so much on the murals themselves. During this clip, it was difficult to see what was so disturbing about the pictures. Does anyone know what is considered to the be the main complaint about them?
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:19 AM
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While we don't have the history of Harvard, Harvard has plaques all over the place where former Presidents and founding fathers lived/studied/etc. all over campus. I visited once and spent a few hours just walking around on a nice day. For a history nerd like myself, it was great.
Really? I didn't know that. That's awesome. When Chattanooga worked on their Riverwalk "Renaissance" project, they put in historical markers along the walk and throughout downtown. Downtown is nice but the sad thing is that the historical neighborhoods are basically the hood now. We've got a gang problem and not enough men in blue.

While I love all history, manufacturing history is my thing. Hence my love for Detroit and it's architecture. South Bend has some outstanding history and Notre Dame is a part of that (or vice versa).
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:58 PM
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I saw a brief video clip of the murals but it was more focused on the reaction and not so much on the murals themselves. During this clip, it was difficult to see what was so disturbing about the pictures. Does anyone know what is considered to the be the main complaint about them?
I would venture to guess that Columbus as the subject matter is what's offensive. Personally I don't care one way or another about Columbus, and I've thought the holiday was dumb since I was a kid. Then I started learning more about history and became fascinated by the possibility of lots of other easterners from Europe, Asia, or Africa coming to North America, pre-dating Columbus by hundreds of years in some theories possibly millennia in others.

So in a way the Columbus thing is kind of the reverse of the Confederate Statue debate around the country. That is people have made the case that monuments or statues aren't erected for the defeated or "losers". Technically Columbus was on the "winning" team. Not trying to justify things, just following the logical conclusion to a point that has been made, to the victors go the spoils.

My stance is always be careful when dealing with history. You have to know the good and bad, and remember it to apply going forward.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:34 PM
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People in our time are such pu$$ies. Whatever happened to sticks and stones. Grow a pair. History is history and history is brutal. It just is. Deal with it, but some events established the modern world we live in today, regardless how brutal the event was. Without it, we wouldn’t be here. I hate people.
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:56 PM
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People in our time are such pu$$ies. Whatever happened to sticks and stones. Grow a pair. History is history and history is brutal. It just is. Deal with it, but some events established the modern world we live in today, regardless how brutal the event was. Without it, we wouldn’t be here. I hate people.
Says the guy living in "Happiest Place on Earth, FL"
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:01 AM
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Says the guy living in "Happiest Place on Earth, FL"
Hahahahaha. Good point.
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Old 01-24-2019, 10:53 AM
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I would venture to guess that Columbus as the subject matter is what's offensive. Personally I don't care one way or another about Columbus, and I've thought the holiday was dumb since I was a kid. Then I started learning more about history and became fascinated by the possibility of lots of other easterners from Europe, Asia, or Africa coming to North America, pre-dating Columbus by hundreds of years in some theories possibly millennia in others.

So in a way the Columbus thing is kind of the reverse of the Confederate Statue debate around the country. That is people have made the case that monuments or statues aren't erected for the defeated or "losers". Technically Columbus was on the "winning" team. Not trying to justify things, just following the logical conclusion to a point that has been made, to the victors go the spoils.

My stance is always be careful when dealing with history. You have to know the good and bad, and remember it to apply going forward.
If celebrating Columbus is "bad", does that also mean that we need to stop celebrating Thanksgiving since it basically represents the successful colonization of North America by European "invaders"?
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:00 PM
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If celebrating Columbus is "bad", does that also mean that we need to stop celebrating Thanksgiving since it basically represents the successful colonization of North America by European "invaders"?
I chose to celebrate what I want and how I want. The only thing that affects me is what days my employer deems a holiday and if I get extra pay for working it. Also if many co-workers decide they want to observe a holiday, then it becomes a sought after day off and only a few can take it off while the others have to maintain minimum manpower.

No one celebrates my birthday or those who's I observe, my families. I don't really care about MLK day, any presidents or celebrities days, etc. Maybe I'm a hard *** but i dont care about their feelings anymore than they care about mine. But I'll debate the facts all day long.

BTW I for sure celebrate Thanksgiving and the pilgrims landing at Plymouth. My ancestor, John Howland, barely made it here on the Mayflower voyage. So I'm alive and thankful for his will to live after being tossed off the ship then deal with those early hardships here.

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Old 01-24-2019, 08:48 PM
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If celebrating Columbus is "bad", does that also mean that we need to stop celebrating Thanksgiving since it basically represents the successful colonization of North America by European "invaders"?
I'd be ok with not celebrating Thanksgiving because it's just another time I have to drive hours to see the inlaws all in a month's time. While I don't mind them, I hate that drive.

At the end of the day, if you're Catholic Christian, you ought to understand evangelization has been one thing the Church has done well through the ages. The Church's history isn't always pretty, right now isn't exactly a highpoint, but there has been a lot of good and humanity spread throughout the world.
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