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  #76  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cavic View Post
Not looking for Jurkovek to be a savior but to gain experience for next season. Book has shown his ceiling and getting to the playoffs was it. All ND fans want to get to the playoffs and win. Give Jurkovek a chance to prove himself with meaningful minutes this year. He has a stronger arm and will actually keep the ball on the zone read.
Until next year...then he wont. And we will ask for the next freshman recruit to take his place.
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  #77  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:48 AM
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Until next year...then he wont. And we will ask for the next freshman recruit to take his place.
And to reiterate something that Faith posted earlier that really drives this home about Kelly, criticism vs coaching of his QB's. Year One the QB and team find success, usually with a more limited playbook where they simply manage the games. We saw it in 2012 with Golson with Rees as a reliever, '15 with Kizer, '17 with Wimbush, and '18 with Book.

Year two as we both have pointed out begins the regression of the QB and the team in the win column. Year two emphasis is put on the QB to step up beyond a game mananger. Were they coached up for that increased role, or because the playbook expanded and they are a returning starter they are presumed to have naturally gotten better organically?

To me every year two starter for Kelly has completely lost any and all confidence in their ability and to some extent faith in the offense as a whole. I look at the critcism of PJ's throwing motion and how the coaches looked to "fix" it. I didn't think there was a necessity, he appeared to have good accuracy and velocity on his ball coming out of HS. If it isn't broke why fix it? And its been that way for every Kelly QB, the criticism of something they dont like instead of instructing them on how to read defenses, progress through their reads, and not lock in on a receiver among other things.

Last edited by jessemoore97; 10-28-2019 at 05:51 AM.
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  #78  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:22 PM
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We have six games left. Part of me says to keep Book in and then let Phil relieve and start working him in. The other side of me says bench Book because I want Phil ready for Clemson next year. However, as we all know if Phil plays now he'll probably not develop next season and we get clobbered by Clemson.

We need to revamp our QB coaching. Maybe Rees is more of a mentor and we get a real coach in. Keep Kelly away from QBs; he is no guru.
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  #79  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:17 PM
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I believe you keep ian book in as the starter but insert phil whenever you can to get him good game reps. up to this point I have not seen anything from phil that makes me believe he can take ND to the next level. he cant throw spirals and every throw he makes is a wobbler, how can you throw a 30 yard out with those passes with out them getting picked off. he's not the athlete I believed he was, he's got the speed of tommy reese. phil can be a good qb but he really needs to work on his passes and learning the offense.
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  #80  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jessemoore97 View Post
And to reiterate something that Faith posted earlier that really drives this home about Kelly, criticism vs coaching of his QB's. Year One the QB and team find success, usually with a more limited playbook where they simply manage the games. We saw it in 2012 with Golson with Rees as a reliever, '15 with Kizer, '17 with Wimbush, and '18 with Book.

Year two as we both have pointed out begins the regression of the QB and the team in the win column. Year two emphasis is put on the QB to step up beyond a game mananger. Were they coached up for that increased role, or because the playbook expanded and they are a returning starter they are presumed to have naturally gotten better organically?

To me every year two starter for Kelly has completely lost any and all confidence in their ability and to some extent faith in the offense as a whole. I look at the critcism of PJ's throwing motion and how the coaches looked to "fix" it. I didn't think there was a necessity, he appeared to have good accuracy and velocity on his ball coming out of HS. If it isn't broke why fix it? And its been that way for every Kelly QB, the criticism of something they dont like instead of instructing them on how to read defenses, progress through their reads, and not lock in on a receiver among other things.
I wonder if itís all coaching. In that, as you say, we call a very vanilla offense for first year qbís. The second year, some more plays get added on but the ďBookĒ is already out on the qb and the type of plays that will be used. But our qbs never progress or our o-line canít block and our qbs get rattled and they take off or canít find open receivers and itís too late for them.
The ONLY answer in this offense and qb for our system is a strong armed TALL qb. One that can see the blitz and can also step up into the pocket. Right now the only truly successful qb(if you can cal it that) was Kizer. Teams couldnít pin their ears back with ends and force our short qbs either to step up where they canít see, or running for their lives toward the sideline where it will either be intercepted or incomplete. Thatís why Phil is the answer from here on out. The gameplan is crap with Book no matter what we call now.
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  #81  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:10 PM
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What is the deal with these "In Comment" Ads? They're f***ing awful. Have we been hacked, or has someone thought it wise to include them interspersed between comments in our threads...? Nobody is buying the sh*t they're advertising...
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  #82  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:14 PM
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Nothing to play for. Gotta see what he can do the rest of the year.
NOTHING TO PLAY FOR! ND still has a chance to go 10-2 and play for a new year 6 bowl game. I would like to see phil get more reps but ND has more problems than just QB and a simple QB change I don't think fixes any of it. ND just simply needs to run the ball and stop the run.
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  #83  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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How is that dramatic? You think the future is with Book? Lol

I just donít see it with Phil, I hope Iím wrong but at the same time Iíd like to see him with the first stringers. Iíve just never seen a good qb who canít throw a spiral, heck I havenít seen an average qb who couldnít throw a spiral.
Joe Burrow wound up at LSU and that place was a QB graveyard.
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  #84  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:23 PM
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Not looking for Jurkovek to be a savior but to gain experience for next season. Book has shown his ceiling and getting to the playoffs was it. All ND fans want to get to the playoffs and win. Give Jurkovek a chance to prove himself with meaningful minutes this year. He has a stronger arm and will actually keep the ball on the zone read.
Heís supposed to have a strong arm, but none of his passes seemed to have much zip. I donít think Jurkovec has won this job as much as Book lost it.
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  #85  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:35 PM
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What is the deal with these "In Comment" Ads? They're f***ing awful. Have we been hacked, or has someone thought it wise to include them interspersed between comments in our threads...? Nobody is buying the sh*t they're advertising...
Yeah, what the hell? This is bizarre.
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  #86  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:47 PM
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He’s supposed to have a strong arm, but none of his passes seemed to have much zip. I don’t think Jurkovec has won this job as much as Book lost it.
With this line, you could literally replace Jurk with the name of any incumbent frosh QB we've had over the last decade and replace Book with the name of any QB who was named the starter and lost it midseason due to the telltale regression under BK.

It's the same scenario every time....but there is only one constant in these equations. And I'm terrible at math.
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  #87  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:19 PM
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Not looking for Jurkovek to be a savior but to gain experience for next season. Book has shown his ceiling and getting to the playoffs was it. All ND fans want to get to the playoffs and win. Give Jurkovek a chance to prove himself with meaningful minutes this year. He has a stronger arm and will actually keep the ball on the zone read.
If Jurkovek becomes the starter for the last six games, will that make 2020 his fatal second year as a starter for Kelly or will that kick in for 2021?
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  #88  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:20 PM
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Def fatal next year....
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  #89  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:29 PM
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If you were a good QB, would you ever come here? Every single QB he's had in 10 years has been a bust here and the NFL.
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  #90  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:52 PM
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https://www.si.com/college/notredame...t-good-enough/

Article highlighting some stats to show how poor Book has been all year.
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  #91  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:27 AM
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I believe you keep ian book in as the starter but insert phil whenever you can to get him good game reps. up to this point I have not seen anything from phil that makes me believe he can take ND to the next level. he cant throw spirals and every throw he makes is a wobbler, how can you throw a 30 yard out with those passes with out them getting picked off. he's not the athlete I believed he was, he's got the speed of tommy reese. phil can be a good qb but he really needs to work on his passes and learning the offense.
Book is way faster than Rees, but thatís about the only positive thing I can say about him right now.
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  #92  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:28 AM
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If you were a good QB, would you ever come here? Every single QB he's had in 10 years has been a bust here and the NFL.
Could say the same thing about LSU or even Bama before Tua.
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  #93  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:26 AM
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NOTHING TO PLAY FOR! ND still has a chance to go 10-2 and play for a new year 6 bowl game. I would like to see phil get more reps but ND has more problems than just QB and a simple QB change I don't think fixes any of it. ND just simply needs to run the ball and stop the run.
Even if this team wins out and goes 10-2, which is entirely possible given how mediocre the rest of the schedule is, it has no business being in a NY6 bowl game.

Believe me, ND tried very hard to run the ball on Michigan and couldn't do it, that's what i saw. So it's not as simple as ND just needs to run the ball, sure that would be great. They aren't good enough to run over good defenses which is why you need a vertical passing game to stretch the field and get the defense to back off and stop cheating on run support. Opposing defenses have plenty of tape on Book now and they have absolutely zero respect for his arm, which makes us too easy to defend when we play a real defense.

Last edited by nd2000; 10-29-2019 at 04:28 AM.
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  #94  
Old 10-29-2019, 01:25 PM
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From this SBT article:

If that requires offensive coordinator Chip Long to tweak his offensive game plan to better accentuate Bookís strengths, Kelly wants that discussion to happen.

ďIf we're not having those discussions and you guys are having them, you should take our jobs, quite frankly,Ē Kelly said. ďThose are in-depth conversations that should take place, that do take place, and we take it serious that we have to look at all of those things, and they have to be vetted out each and every day as we move forward to improving our football team.Ē

I suspect this means that there will be more roll outs, so that Book doesn't have to deal with a pocket where he can't see down field due to his size. We'll see.
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  #95  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:50 PM
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Even if this team wins out and goes 10-2, which is entirely possible given how mediocre the rest of the schedule is, it has no business being in a NY6 bowl game.
1000% disagree. Any bowl outside the playoff is merely an exhibition and all about money. We bring the most money to any bowl that invites us. We are #1 in that regard, so we deserve the best bowl we qualify to enter. Bowls are not a meritocracy, except the playoff. They are solely about money. We absolutely deserve an NY6 bowl if 10-2.
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  #96  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:19 PM
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These basic statements could not be more false. ND has had a vertical passing game under Kelly - Will Fuller ring a bell? It’s not that simple. A couple years ago the defense was the problem. Now everyone is pointing to the offense.

The team needs more elite players, plain and simple. You cannot recruit one 5* player in 5 years and expect to constantly develop players to compete at an elite level.

For the first time in 20 years I felt like ND was actually close to being truly elite again. The 2020 and 2021 classes could have produced some special teams. This was a monumental set-back for the program and unacceptable for a coach with 10+ years with the program.
Yep and Kelly hired, then kept BVG as DC the Kizer/Fuller years. If that defense had been as good as this defense, who just gave up 45, ND had a solid chance at making the playoffs. Instead ND wasted it's most explosive WR in years while Kelly kept his buddy BVG around to be gauged by Stanford with almost 0 time left. Kelly has had a vertical passing game, paired with a ****** defense, making ND essentially Texas Tech with more talent. Now they have 0 vertical passing game and a solid, top 30ish defense, making ND look like Iowa.

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Originally Posted by ELDER06 View Post
I think a Book needs to be benched, but Jurkovec is no savior.
So who are you even arguing with? No one in this thread even halfway implied Phil would be a "savior." Is Phil more physically gifted than Book? I'd say yes, and that's about as far as anyone in this thread has gone as well.

Last edited by Dardo; 10-29-2019 at 04:23 PM.
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  #97  
Old 10-29-2019, 05:21 PM
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It's been implied on other sites that Phil just isn't mentally ready to be the starting QB - he apparently doesn't take the time to review film and learn how to read a defense/set protections/know coverages/etc. There is no doubt he is more physically talented than Book - Jurk was a Top 100 recruit and Book was a 3-star - but he just is not ready mentally. Maybe that is partly the fault of BK and Long, but it's also on Jurk for not taking the time to get in the film room and get better. Tommy Rees, for all of his faults, was a film junkie who was so good mentally that it allowed him to overcome many of his physical limitations. Jurk needs that mentally - he should be in the film room every second that Book is in there if he really wants the job. I'm sure it's hard to be motivated when you are the clear backup, but now he should be motivated because he has the physical tools to take the job.
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  #98  
Old 10-29-2019, 07:04 PM
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Could say the same thing about LSU or even Bama before Tua.
And being a productive QB in the NFL has virtually nothing to do with college performance. That's why the best QBs in the NFL came from obscure schools (or schools that are considered mediocre in CFB) instead of the traditional powerhouses.

It's all mechanics, measurables, and mentality. NFL scouts don't care about how many wins you college team tallied, how many titles you won, or how many awards you garnered.

In other words, I don't care how well ND QBs do in the NFL. A measuring stick of a great CFB coach is how much his QBs improve as they progress from freshman to senior while in South Bend.

Ours don't...and have never.....under BK.
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  #99  
Old 10-29-2019, 07:32 PM
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And being a productive QB in the NFL has virtually nothing to do with college performance. That's why the best QBs in the NFL came from obscure schools (or schools that are considered mediocre in CFB) instead of the traditional powerhouses.

It's all mechanics, measurables, and mentality. NFL scouts don't care about how many wins you college team tallied, how many titles you won, or how many awards you garnered.

In other words, I don't care how well ND QBs do in the NFL. A measuring stick of a great CFB coach is how much his QBs improve as they progress from freshman to senior while in South Bend.

Ours don't...and have never.....under BK.
Agree with all of this. I was somewhat of a denier of this theory prior to this season, but it's impossible to ignore now. Book should be so much better than he has been this season. He has not even stayed the same, he has gotten worse.



It's impossible to deny anymore, which is what I had been doing before this season.

Crist: Injured (N/A)
Rees: Improved
Golson: Regressed
Zaire: Injured (N/A)
Kizer: Stagnated/Regressed
Wimbush: Regressed
Book: Regressed

This is a Brian Kelly issue. Whether he puts too much on the QB or whatever it is, his QBs simply get worse from year one as a starter to year two. And the "Book was a 3-star" argument has no merit. It means that it is unreasonable to expect him to play to the level of a Trevor Lawrence or Tua or Jalen Hurts, but it is not unreasonable to expect him to improve his game as a senior and second-year starter. He has gotten worse in every statistical measure. The only thing he is good at is not turning the ball over (which is why ND likely wins out and goes 10-2 this season). But he is not the answer next year and BK is not the answer either. This is not a Tommy Rees or Chip Long issue either - this is on Brian Kelly.
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:49 PM
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Agree with all of this. I was somewhat of a denier of this theory prior to this season, but it's impossible to ignore now. Book should be so much better than he has been this season. He has not even stayed the same, he has gotten worse.



It's impossible to deny anymore, which is what I had been doing before this season.

Crist: Injured (N/A)
Rees: Improved
Golson: Regressed
Zaire: Injured (N/A)
Kizer: Stagnated/Regressed
Wimbush: Regressed
Book: Regressed

This is a Brian Kelly issue. Whether he puts too much on the QB or whatever it is, his QBs simply get worse from year one as a starter to year two. And the "Book was a 3-star" argument has no merit. It means that it is unreasonable to expect him to play to the level of a Trevor Lawrence or Tua or Jalen Hurts, but it is not unreasonable to expect him to improve his game as a senior and second-year starter. He has gotten worse in every statistical measure. The only thing he is good at is not turning the ball over (which is why ND likely wins out and goes 10-2 this season). But he is not the answer next year and BK is not the answer either. This is not a Tommy Rees or Chip Long issue either - this is on Brian Kelly.
Couple of items here....Rees didn't really improve. He was always a backup who got thrust into a starting position due to necessity.

The offense was never geared toward his capabilities because he was never supposed to be our starting QB. As a freshman, he filled in for an injured Crist (already suffering from the damage from BK). He gets starting role in 2011 but since he only played a part of the 2010 season, there is no regression to mark. 2012 he is back in full time backup role because another freshman (Golson) is playing better.

Second, injury to a starting (or at least promising QB) doesn't mean there wasn't a marked regression. Both Crist and Zaire has exhibited such regression prior to their injuries.

Third, you for forgot Andrew Hendrix.
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