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  #1  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:38 AM
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Default Keeping it Simpler on O

I just listened to Kelly talk about the reason he went from BVG to Elko/Lee being the way the defense was taught. BVG was very complicated. The new defense is simpler.

I want to tell you as an outsider looking at our offense its once again to complicated.

When we finally got back to 2 Tight End Football we looked more in sync. Whether it was Flemister or Smith or Jones we've got to hammer the ball and benefit from play action passing.

In my opinion we can't run so many different groups out there.


The victim of this crazy receiver rotation we've put the most spotlight on is Chris Finke. Finke was a confident slot receiver last year. Then Young goes down and they cross train and confuse Finke.

All I know is all this extra scheme to make up for the loss of talent last year is making players play slower.

In week 2 against weaker opponents all the different groups are cool.

In week 5, the ND offense needs a clear identity. What I see is a group with strong tight ends and downhill running. That's the Identity I'd stick with?

What do you guys think?
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  #2  
Old 10-01-2019, 03:53 AM
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I don't understand how our offense can be complicated. If morons at Memphis could learn Chip Long's offense, our guys most certainly should figure it out... There are plenty of morons out there who are running these systems. I think our guys may literally be a bunch of dumb smart guys...
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Old 10-01-2019, 04:02 AM
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On offense you want the ball in the hands of your best athletes. With receivers like Kmet, Claypool, Young....I want the ball in their hands. From my seat in the upper bowl there were receivers wide open on pass plays constantly that Book did not see or was late throwing the pass. I agree with making it simpler on offense if that helps Book find receivers. But donít agree with a double tight end running identity.
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Old 10-01-2019, 04:40 AM
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Nah. You aren't going to win playoff games with a wisconsin offense. Plus our olines run blocking has been below average. Same with our runningbacks. We need to utilize Claypool and Kmet as much as possible. Hope Young can add a boost as well. Look at the difference in LSU. We need to work on personnel and development
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Old 10-01-2019, 03:54 PM
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Book is only effective when he has maximum protection. Any time, due to formation, and/or blitzes, he is forced to deliver the football to an open receiver knowing he might get hit, he opts to bail out of the pocket. Go watch the first play. The formation is empty backfield. The defense blitzes a linebacker and does a stunt on the right side, which forces our right tackle to ignore the defensive end who, without the tailback to block him, has a free shot. There's a wide open curl route, but Book would have had to deliver the ball knowing he'll get hit by the open rusher. Instead, he bailed. On the same drive he had Kmet wide open in the middle of the field, but on the first sign of pressure- without any rusher breaking free- Book bailed instead of standing and delivering the football. If Book, and the passing offense, is to progress, he has to show more courage under pressure.

Last edited by Frankus; 10-01-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 10-01-2019, 05:20 PM
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Book is only effective when he has maximum protection. Any time, due to formation, and/or blitzes, he is forced to deliver the football to an open receiver knowing he might get hit, he opts to bail out of the pocket. Go watch the first play. The formation is empty backfield. The defense blitzes a linebacker and does a stunt on the right side, which forces our right tackle to ignore the defensive end who, without the tailback to block him, has a free shot. There's a wide open curl route, but Book would have had to deliver the ball knowing he'll get hit by the open rusher. Instead, he bailed. On the same drive he had Kmet wide open in the middle of the field, but on the first sign of pressure- without any rusher breaking free- Book bailed instead of standing and delivering the football. If Book, and the passing offense, is to progress, he has to show more courage under pressure.
Completely agree on all of this. I was skeptical that Book could improve his arm strength over one offseason, but I thought that he would improve his ability to read defenses and his pocket awareness - so far, I haven't seen any improvement in those areas.

Due to his physical limitations, he needs to be much better pre-snap - changing plays or switching protections - and he needs to have much better pocket awareness. Tommy Rees, for all of his limitations, was great pre-snap at reading a defense. He would constantly change plays and change protections - he was like a coach on the field. Book needs to be like that because he will not beat elite defenses on talent alone because he is not an elite talent.
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Old 10-01-2019, 05:44 PM
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Due to his physical limitations, he needs to be much better pre-snap - changing plays or switching protections - and he needs to have much better pocket awareness.
A lot of these plays where there is a free rusher are due to either an empty backfield, or where the running back releases to go out on a route. Book knows there's going to be a free rusher, but he doesn't hang in there and throw the ball. Since it happens so often, I wonder why they keep calling those plays.
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Old 10-01-2019, 05:56 PM
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How can this offence be complicated? We have ran the same handful of run plays for the past 3 years. We canít even have Finke go in motion without an offensive lineman committing a false start.

Defence needs to be simple because guys need to react vs think. The offence should be way more complex, however we are limited with Book at QB. Poor vision downfield, terrible pocket awareness, and lack of going through his progressions hinders us.

Book missed 3 sure touchdowns because he either couldnít see once the pocket collapsed or he already abandoned it. I would like to see Phil with the first stringers this week, I donít care to watch him with the backups.

Just remember everyone we probably lose to UVA at home if our defence has an ordinary game.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:22 PM
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Book is only effective when he has maximum protection. Any time, due to formation, and/or blitzes, he is forced to deliver the football to an open receiver knowing he might get hit, he opts to bail out of the pocket. Go watch the first play. The formation is empty backfield. The defense blitzes a linebacker and does a stunt on the right side, which forces our right tackle to ignore the defensive end who, without the tailback to block him, has a free shot. There's a wide open curl route, but Book would have had to deliver the ball knowing he'll get hit by the open rusher. Instead, he bailed. On the same drive he had Kmet wide open in the middle of the field, but on the first sign of pressure- without any rusher breaking free- Book bailed instead of standing and delivering the football. If Book, and the passing offense, is to progress, he has to show more courage under pressure.
It's easiest to max protect out of a 2 TE set. That's why our success last week was there(it wasn't great success either)

If people think I'm happy offering this up I'm not. but if it keeps the QB in the pocket than I think its the best of the options(Mind you I'm talking moving the offense from an F to a C-)

We have an A defense, I just don't want a failing offense to make us a C team.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:30 PM
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It's easiest to max protect out of a 2 TE set. That's why our success last week was there(it wasn't great success either)

If people think I'm happy offering this up I'm not. but if it keeps the QB in the pocket than I think its the best of the options(Mind you I'm talking moving the offense from an F to a C-)

We have an A defense, I just don't want a failing offense to make us a C team.
I don't think it's a bad idea and would suit Book better. Kmet and Tremble are both dangerous in their own way as receivers and blocked well when they both were in together during the 2nd half and we had some long runs. I doubt Kelly will do it. He's a spread guy, but you never know.
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:44 PM
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I don't think it's a bad idea and would suit Book better. Kmet and Tremble are both dangerous in their own way as receivers and blocked well when they both were in together during the 2nd half and we had some long runs. I doubt Kelly will do it. He's a spread guy, but you never know.
My only hope for this is Long is the Tight Ends Coach. If they turn on the tape Tremble has had a better year then Finke, but Finke is a captain.

So I'd want my downhill backs to have a second blocker and linebackers to struggle with Tremble in the pass game.

I think Book is shell shocked and could use extra protection right now if they aren't switching QB's which their not.

Kelly is not "unhappy" with Book per his Presser. If thats the case I hope they give him the best chance which is lots of protection
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:48 PM
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I don't understand how our offense can be complicated. If morons at Memphis could learn Chip Long's offense, our guys most certainly should figure it out... There are plenty of morons out there who are running these systems. I think our guys may literally be a bunch of dumb smart guys...
hahah! Morons at Memphis! Can't stop chuckling. Good one!
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Old 10-01-2019, 11:50 PM
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My only hope for this is Long is the Tight Ends Coach. If they turn on the tape Tremble has had a better year then Finke, but Finke is a captain.

So I'd want my downhill backs to have a second blocker and linebackers to struggle with Tremble in the pass game.

I think Book is shell shocked and could use extra protection right now if they aren't switching QB's which their not.

Kelly is not "unhappy" with Book per his Presser. If thats the case I hope they give him the best chance which is lots of protection
They used the two TE sets a lot in the second half against UVA - which is when the ND run game finally came alive. It also opens up better matchups - Kmet and Tremble are matchup nightmares - and Book should be getting them the ball more.

Not sure what's up with Finke. He was really good last year (we don't win at USC without him), but he has been a shell of himself this season. Two TE sets get him off the field - Claypool, Young, Kmet, Tremble is the best offensive personnel right now IMO. Better for the run game and better for the passing game. I wish ND had a true speed guy/deep threat like Will Fuller, but he just isn't on the 2019 team.
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Old 10-02-2019, 01:41 AM
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They used the two TE sets a lot in the second half against UVA - which is when the ND run game finally came alive. It also opens up better matchups - Kmet and Tremble are matchup nightmares - and Book should be getting them the ball more.

Not sure what's up with Finke. He was really good last year (we don't win at USC without him), but he has been a shell of himself this season. Two TE sets get him off the field - Claypool, Young, Kmet, Tremble is the best offensive personnel right now IMO. Better for the run game and better for the passing game. I wish ND had a true speed guy/deep threat like Will Fuller, but he just isn't on the 2019 team.
yup that second half told me to write this thread
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Old 10-02-2019, 05:36 AM
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Nah. You aren't going to win playoff games with a wisconsin offense. Plus our olines run blocking has been below average. Same with our runningbacks. We need to utilize Claypool and Kmet as much as possible. Hope Young can add a boost as well. Look at the difference in LSU. We need to work on personnel and development
I think the offensive line is better then most think it is. UVA knew we were going to run and gave up a 30 yard TD run that we blocked up pretty perfectly

I'm gonna call the below formation pistol offset I twins. In my early life the QB would be under center and the fullback behind his outside hip and the tail back a few yards back.

Now the QB is a few yards back from the center, and its a crime to call that h-back or move tight end a fullback, I digress...

I like this formation the lead blocker(I gave Tremble yet another name) and the running back favor one side making it a likely run destination. the numbers are like 7.5 to 7 against us. The outside linebacker is cheating in and the run safety(strong safety) is replacing

We end up blocking a few two for 1 situations and Tony Scores.

Let's pretend for a second this is a pass. So we know the pass safety is playing middle. So if he stays we have access to the top of the screen, if he goes there we have access to the middle.

In short I can see run and pass plays that work out of this formation.

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Old 10-02-2019, 03:54 PM
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I'm gonna call the below formation pistol offset I twins. In my early life the QB would be under center and the fullback behind his outside hip and the tail back a few yards back.

Now the QB is a few yards back from the center, and its a crime to call that h-back or move tight end a fullback, I digress...

I like this formation the lead blocker(I gave Tremble yet another name) and the running back favor one side making it a likely run destination. the numbers are like 7.5 to 7 against us. The outside linebacker is cheating in and the run safety(strong safety) is replacing

We end up blocking a few two for 1 situations and Tony Scores.

Let's pretend for a second this is a pass. So we know the pass safety is playing middle. So if he stays we have access to the top of the screen, if he goes there we have access to the middle.

In short I can see run and pass plays that work out of this formation.
Tremble is an exceptionally good blocker in space, blocking linebackers, safeties and trapping DE's. He's the best of any TE in space I've seen in the Kelly era, which makes him very versatile as both a TE and an H back. Long and the O staff recognized this and is utilizing it to success. It will be interesting to see how much they utilize him going forward.
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:26 PM
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Tremble is an exceptionally good blocker in space, blocking linebackers, safeties and trapping DE's. He's the best of any TE in space I've seen in the Kelly era, which makes him very versatile as both a TE and an H back. Long and the O staff recognized this and is utilizing it to success. It will be interesting to see how much they utilize him going forward.
Yup. I also like the pass protection elements to this as well. Gives the QB 2 backs and the 6(forgot to count the tight end) lineman to build his protection from based on the pre-snap read, you could motion tremble over if you had too and on play action the QB can drop deeper than the tailback so the tailback can also become his personal protector.

I agree will see how often something like this gets called but it makes sense to me.
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Old 10-04-2019, 01:00 PM
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How can this offence be complicated? We have ran the same handful of run plays for the past 3 years. We canít even have Finke go in motion without an offensive lineman committing a false start.

Defence needs to be simple because guys need to react vs think. The offence should be way more complex, however we are limited with Book at QB. Poor vision downfield, terrible pocket awareness, and lack of going through his progressions hinders us.

Book missed 3 sure touchdowns because he either couldnít see once the pocket collapsed or he already abandoned it. I would like to see Phil with the first stringers this week, I donít care to watch him with the backups.

Just remember everyone we probably lose to UVA at home if our defence has an ordinary game.
I think Book has a hard time seeing open receivers because he is short and can't see effectively over the linemen. Why can"t he roll out more on a designed pass play and open up his throwing lanes to his receivers? Seems like it should be a quick fix to this type of an issue.
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Old 10-06-2019, 07:03 PM
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I thought ND did a much better job against Bowling Green.

Tight ends had 7 receptions (Tremble 4- 38 yards, Kmet 2-34 yards,
Wright 1- 40 yards)= 122 yards

Also

233 yards rushing, lots of 2 TEs in different formations


I know the opponent has to be considered but what i'm looking at is execution.

I don't remember many penalties and we did not turn it over.
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