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  #51  
Old 10-05-2019, 07:43 PM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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Originally Posted by jbrown_9999 View Post
Top 10 Team?
Top 10 Recruiting Classes?

Brian Kelly has finished unranked 4 times, Top 10 twice and 11 to 20 three times. Despite having never recruited worse than #17 over nine years, he has only finished ranked in the top 17 teams four times (less than half).

For recruiting, he is averaging the #12.1 ranked class and his last class at #16 (2019) was his second lowest ranked recruiting class as ND's head coach.

What is frustrating is that Brian Kelly is a very good coach but not a great coach. He also seems to putting less time into recruiting than he did when he first started at ND and I believe the results reflect that.

His two best recruiting classes followed his first and third seasons as ND's coach. Since then his recruiting has gotten slightly worse. Perhaps due to him having the "coldest seat" in the country, he decided to relax and not work as hard. It is probably not a coincidence that he had his third and fourth best recruiting classes after the wake-up call and subsequent coaching "reboot" following the 2016 disaster of a season

Unfortunately the goodwill created by the 2017 and 2018 seasons seemed to take the pressure off him and he slipped to his second worst class with the 2019 recruiting class.

Regardless of all of the above, Brain Kelly will not be fired anytime soon. Winning at least 9 or 10 games this year will give him at least another 2 or 3 years as ND's coach. As fans, it would be nice to see Kelly elevate his results up a notch. Maybe he will figure out how to have a QB improve in year 2 as a starter. Maybe he will work harder and more effectively as a recruiter. Maybe he will outcoach someone and win his first "big game" since 2012 or 2013.
Nd is consistently in top 15, which a lot of teams can’t say. There are 5-6 teams in the top 10 every year and then a few outliners like Oregon last year. Nd is simply never going to get the 5 stars that LSU, bama, and GA get every year. However, Texas is in the top 5 every year and their classes vs ND are not much different in talent. TEnn, FSU, and USC have higher rankings most years. I think anyone of those teams would take BK. Would you take a top 10 class every year like Tenn and lay eggs every year or a top 15 with chance for the playoffs. Tennessee is years and probably another coach away from a playoff spot.
To your other point, maybe BK is just being smarter with recruiting, how many of those High end recruits BL got early actually stayed and played a few games or didn’t get in trouble most of the time. Also, he has 2 of the biggest playmakers in the country recruited this year so far, who knows if they will stay committed, but this 2020 class looks like the best yet. The 2019 class was great as well, so much depth in last years class.

Last edited by Jim2Dokes; 10-05-2019 at 07:56 PM.
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  #52  
Old 10-05-2019, 08:24 PM
JoeBrasco JoeBrasco is offline
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This. I guess that's the perks of arm chair AD'ing. You can push for something to happen that may not make sense and if it doesn't work out you can second guess is several years down the road. Does Kelly have swagger? Not at all, I don't mind it either. There's no guarantee's when it comes to making a young innovative coach hire, for every Lincoln Riley you have 10 Lane Kiffin's, Steve Sarkasian's, Jon Embree's etc. It's a lot of work to build up any successful CFB program, it's even more work to do it at Notre Dame. It doesn't take much, like too many visits to the golf course, for the program to fall flat on it's face. We've consistently recruited better and better each year in certain areas that we've struggled with in the past. We have some difference makers coming in on offense, if we could do the same at corner we'd be in business to legitimately make a run. We aren't that far away. I have no interest in rolling the dice at this time. If we can't even remotely come up with a legit list of options to take Kelly's place, then we probably aren't having the proper conversation.
Bingo! ND is very close. No need to roll the dice right now..
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  #53  
Old 10-05-2019, 08:33 PM
JoeBrasco JoeBrasco is offline
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That's the hard part. There is no tried and true method that produces great coaches every time. Kelly had a great resume before ND. He's been pretty good, not great. Urban Meyer had a similar resume before Florida and he is a legend.

Charlie Strong was the uber-assistant and he's been very average. Bob Stoops was the Uber-assistant and he's a legend.

Dabo Swinney went from WR coach at Clemson with one year as OC to HC and legend. Other WR coaches and OC's go nowhere.

Saban was pretty average at Michigan St and went on to become a legend. Ty Willingham was pretty good at Stanford and was terrible.

If it was easy to pick out the next legend, everyone would do it. We can speculate all we want, the next legend is out there. Someone just needs the balls to name him head coach.

Lots of guys wanted PJ Fleck. He's been very average at Minnesota.
No one is going to come to Notre Dame and produce results that Urban had at Florida, Saban at Bama, or Dabo at Clemson. It is an impossibility in modern college football. ND simply cannot consistently get the talent of these other schools.

Some fans whine that Kelly has taken them as far as he can. The fact is we are very close to the peak of what ND is capable of. I think we can be in a national championship game 1-2 times every 10 years. It is unrealistic for anyone to measure Kelly against other programs that have nowhere near the restrictions as ND.
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  #54  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:23 AM
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But what if they stomp their feet really hard and tell you all about 1928 again?

A return to the very top will happen then right?
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  #55  
Old 10-06-2019, 04:02 AM
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If the choice was Kelly and 10+ wins for the next 8 years, but no titles or some new guy who will either never win 10 games or win 2 titiles in 5 years and I'm taking the chance on the new guy every time.
You make that statement almost as if each event has a 50% chance of occurring, it's more like 95-5.
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  #56  
Old 10-06-2019, 05:09 AM
jbrown_9999 jbrown_9999 is offline
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No one is going to come to Notre Dame and produce results that Urban had at Florida, Saban at Bama, or Dabo at Clemson. It is an impossibility in modern college football. ND simply cannot consistently get the talent of these other schools.

Some fans whine that Kelly has taken them as far as he can. The fact is we are very close to the peak of what ND is capable of. I think we can be in a national championship game 1-2 times every 10 years. It is unrealistic for anyone to measure Kelly against other programs that have nowhere near the restrictions as ND.
Notre Dame can recruit better than it has under Kelly. It is not an "impossibility"

Weis out recruited Alabama before Saban got there. A different head coach could recruit Top 10 classes instead of Top 15.

Even just replacing two three stars with two four stars every year might make a difference in winning one more game a year.
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  #57  
Old 10-06-2019, 05:23 AM
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All this talk about Weis's recruiting seems to completely forget how much anguish, vitriol, and frustration was present 11-12 years ago due to the fact that we got talent, and couldn't develop it, at all.

Weis brought back recruiting. Kelly brought back the program. Hopefully the next coach can bring back championships. It's not a fast cycle for a school like ND. College football is completely different now from what it was in 2005, much less 1988.

The sun will shine on ND again, and another championship will come. Just enjoy it for something that is completely beyond your control until that happens.
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  #58  
Old 10-06-2019, 07:31 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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Notre Dame can recruit better than it has under Kelly. It is not an "impossibility"

Weis out recruited Alabama before Saban got there. A different head coach could recruit Top 10 classes instead of Top 15.

Even just replacing two three stars with two four stars every year might make a difference in winning one more game a year.
The last 3 years is the best ND has been since 1993. Thats 26 years, lifes short man enjoy this ride. I could go into Weis had zero depth with his classes and did not produce more draft picks etc etc. 26 years, I think Ill just leave it at that.
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  #59  
Old 10-06-2019, 05:55 PM
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Call me old-fashioned, but if it comes down to a choice between Notre Dame having a unique identity, versus ultimate success by following the Clemson/Alabama model, I want the former. I believe Notre Dame to be a special place, with advantages, but also unique challenges. It means a lot to me over the years when an underdog Irish team has prevailed against superior talent (77 Natty against Texas, 88 against Miami, etc.). I have no desire for ND to sacrifice (further!!) that which makes them special in pursuit of a boring dominance.
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  #60  
Old 10-06-2019, 07:24 PM
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Call me old-fashioned, but if it comes down to a choice between Notre Dame having a unique identity, versus ultimate success by following the Clemson/Alabama model, I want the former. I believe Notre Dame to be a special place, with advantages, but also unique challenges. It means a lot to me over the years when an underdog Irish team has prevailed against superior talent (77 Natty against Texas, 88 against Miami, etc.). I have no desire for ND to sacrifice (further!!) that which makes them special in pursuit of a boring dominance.
What has ND sacrificed at this point?
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  #61  
Old 10-06-2019, 10:14 PM
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What has ND sacrificed at this point?
I think that, at various points, concessions have been made to keep ND competitive. In "Under the Tarnished Dome" various players bemoaned the standards being lowered for "Holtz's guys". I take everything in that book with a large grain of salt, it was written as a gotcha piece, and there are always going to be sour grapes from those who feel marginalized by a new staff. But, I do believe that various factors, primarily the NBC contract, impact ND by keeping the pressure on to be among the elite football programs. I also believe that this impacts the style that ND tries to play. Old-fashioned smash-mouth football, played on grass, isn't as attractive to TV as a wide-open turf game.

There's also a real good chance that I'm just becoming an old curmudgeon. GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN!!
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  #62  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:10 AM
JoeBrasco JoeBrasco is offline
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Notre Dame can recruit better than it has under Kelly. It is not an "impossibility"

Weis out recruited Alabama before Saban got there. A different head coach could recruit Top 10 classes instead of Top 15.

Even just replacing two three stars with two four stars every year might make a difference in winning one more game a year.
Recruiting on the level of Alabama and Clemson is an impossibility, which is what I said.

Weis out recruited Bama before Saban got there. WTH does this even mean? Bama was irrelevant for awhile before Saban got there. If ND out recruited another irrelevant former power program now would it make you happy??
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  #63  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:58 PM
jbrown_9999 jbrown_9999 is offline
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Recruiting on the level of Alabama and Clemson is an impossibility, which is what I said.

Weis out recruited Bama before Saban got there. WTH does this even mean? Bama was irrelevant for awhile before Saban got there. If ND out recruited another irrelevant former power program now would it make you happy??
My main argument is that I do not believe that recruiting at the #12 level (Kelly's average ranking) is the ceiling for ND. However, given Kelly's level of effort and effectiveness as a recruiter, it appears to be what we can expect until there is a coaching change no earlier than a few years from now.

The top recruiting programs change depending on the head coach. Instead of saying that it is impossible for Notre Dame to out recruit Alabama and Clemson, it is more accurate to say that Notre Dame WITH BRIAN KELLY as coach probably will not recruit Top 10 (much less Top 5) classes.

Until the past few years, Clemson was not a recruiting power house. 10-15 years ago, Southern Cal and FSU were dominating. There are about 15 programs which have the potential to consistently recruit Top 5 classes (including ND). The number one reason why schools move in and out of the Top 5 is the head coach.

Do you think that Alabama would have had the same recruiting success if Brian Kelly had been its coach for the past 10 years? Would Notre Dame have averaged better than a #12 recruiting rank if Meyer or Saban had been its coach since 2010?
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  #64  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:31 PM
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What has ND sacrificed at this point?
Alex, what is Jesus? Lets stay on that category. Ill take The New Testament for $800.
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  #65  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:07 PM
JoeBrasco JoeBrasco is offline
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my main argument is that i do not believe that recruiting at the #12 level (kelly's average ranking) is the ceiling for nd. However, given kelly's level of effort and effectiveness as a recruiter, it appears to be what we can expect until there is a coaching change no earlier than a few years from now.

The top recruiting programs change depending on the head coach. Instead of saying that it is impossible for notre dame to out recruit alabama and clemson, it is more accurate to say that notre dame with brian kelly as coach probably will not recruit top 10 (much less top 5) classes.

Until the past few years, clemson was not a recruiting power house. 10-15 years ago, southern cal and fsu were dominating. There are about 15 programs which have the potential to consistently recruit top 5 classes (including nd). The number one reason why schools move in and out of the top 5 is the head coach.

Do you think that alabama would have had the same recruiting success if brian kelly had been its coach for the past 10 years? Would notre dame have averaged better than a #12 recruiting rank if meyer or saban had been its coach since 2010?
ND has recruiting restrictions - stop comparing them to schools that do not.

It kills me the people who rip Kelly say, “Well, he’s no Saban or Urban Meyer!”

Okay, so he’s not in the top 1% of head coaches. Let’s fire him and hope we stumble upon the next once in a generation type coach.

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  #66  
Old 10-08-2019, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeBrasco View Post
ND has recruiting restrictions - stop comparing them to schools that do not.

It kills me the people who rip Kelly say, Well, hes no Saban or Urban Meyer!

Okay, so hes not in the top 1% of head coaches. Lets fire him and hope we stumble upon the next once in a generation type coach.
It's true ND has restrictions but people keep clamoring that you can't recruit like the big boys at ND. People used Weis as an example to claim that you can.
I believe its somewhere in the middle. Maybe ND can't recruit top 3 classes year in and year out, but they should be top 8 every year imo. Especially, when you have been to two playoff games and a top 15 program the past 4-5 years. We should average at the least top 8..
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  #67  
Old 10-08-2019, 01:37 AM
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It's true ND has restrictions but people keep clamoring that you can't recruit like the big boys at ND. People used Weis as an example to claim that you can.
I believe its somewhere in the middle. Maybe ND can't recruit top 3 classes year in and year out, but they should be top 8 every year imo. Especially, when you have been to two playoff games and a top 15 program the past 4-5 years. We should average at the least top 8..
I would also be interested in how many of Weis' five stars worked out. I dont mean as in NFL players, but at ND. ie Lynch left etc. Seems like BK is looking for people who will be more of a fit at ND than in the past, ala Stepherson, who are talented but not worth the headache.
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  #68  
Old 10-08-2019, 01:43 AM
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I would also be interested in how many of Weis' five stars worked out. I dont mean as in NFL players, but at ND. ie Lynch left etc. Seems like BK is looking for people who will be more of a fit at ND than in the past, ala Stepherson, who are talented but not worth the headache.
Here's an interesting article on recruiting between Weis and Kelly. It may answer quite a few questions for some.

https://247sports.com/college/notre-...ame-133828778/
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  #69  
Old 10-08-2019, 01:55 AM
jbrown_9999 jbrown_9999 is offline
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ND has recruiting restrictions - stop comparing them to schools that do not.

It kills me the people who rip Kelly say, Well, hes no Saban or Urban Meyer!

Okay, so hes not in the top 1% of head coaches. Lets fire him and hope we stumble upon the next once in a generation type coach.
You are missing my point

Why is Southern Cal no longer bringing in Top 5 classes every year? Why is Florida State no longer in the Top 5 every year either? Has the weather, girls, location or academics changed for either one of those schools?

Texas had these classes

2013 17
2014 17
2015 10
2016 7
2017 25
2018 3
2019 3
2020 5* (partial class w 20 commits)

Did anything change other than the head coach to have Texas return to Top 5 classes? Charlie Strong had classes like Brian Kelly. Tom Herrman has had Top 5 classes.

My point is that while Kelly has been recruiting above ND's floor (i.e. Willingham) I believe his results are below the max possible for ND. Is ND's max the same as Southern Cal, Alabama, Texas, or FSU? Probably not. But its max is better than the Top 15 results Kelly has averaged.

Brian Kelly will be ND's coach for at least two seasons after the 2019 season so there is no reason to talk about getting rid of him or replacing him.

Since Brian Kelly will be the Irish coach for at least two more years, I would like to see Kelly elevate his recruiting game. I use Saban and Meyer merely as examples of the impact that a head coach can have on a school's recruiting and wish that kelly could be as effective.
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  #70  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:32 AM
JoeBrasco JoeBrasco is offline
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I am not missing your point. The head coach affects recruiting - got it!

Bottom line is that NDs restrictions will keep it from ever going on a USC, FSU, Bama, or Clemson-type run. That is a fact in modern college football. Anyone who expects that is oblivious to what ND is up against.
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  #71  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:40 PM
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I am not missing your point. The head coach affects recruiting - got it!

Bottom line is that NDs restrictions will keep it from ever going on a USC, FSU, Bama, or Clemson-type run. That is a fact in modern college football. Anyone who expects that is oblivious to what ND is up against.
Youre arguing against a strawman. No one in this topic has said thy want ND to get top 3 classes every year. No one. People have said they want ND to recruit a little better. Im not asking Kelly to out-recruit Saban and Dabo, Im asking Kelly to finish 7-10 most years on recruiting instead of 12. That is closing the gap enough that with great coaching, player development and luck ND could play with the big boys more often.
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