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  #26  
Old 09-29-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by irishwavend View Post
Book didnít regress. He got figured out... Wimbush, Zaire & Kizer didnít regress either. They just donít progress...
I was a skeptic of the second year regression but thereís too much evidence now to deny it.

Year one is simplified, itís usually quick throws with minimal reads to get the ball to our superior athletes. Year two things get way too complex for these guys and theyíre not ready to throw the ball 40-50 times a game.

Although I donít think any of them were all that good anyways. I still think we have a special one between Clarke, Phil, Pyne and the guy committed the next year.
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  #27  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:03 PM
AtLeastMySisWasIrish AtLeastMySisWasIrish is offline
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Originally Posted by Kid Gloves View Post
I was on here last year saying I wanted to see Phil play as a freshman. Other top schools throw their top freshmen recruits out there and play them. ND and BK are the ones stuck in the dark ages in believing you have to ďdevelopĒ them and have them sit for 2 years before they play.

If you get a highly ranked top QB prospect then put them on the field and see what they have. Iím a firm believer that there are ďpractice playersĒ and then there are ďgame playersĒ. Sometimes guys consistently look average in practice, but once the lights are on they play at a different level on game day. Conversely, there are some guys who are consistently good in practice, but canít get it done under the pressure on game day.

If Jurk truly has what it takes to be elite then put him on the field. That throw against NM told me all I need to know. He has the arm that Book doesnít have. I say play him for at least 3 quarters next week. And not just with the second string guys either! Give him his chance with the same weapons that Book gets to play with. Then letís see what we have.
I think I understand the context of your post but I don't think many would've supported putting Phil last year in the midst of a 12-0 season and Playoff run. Further, by his own admission, he had a flaw in his motion and was likely to be an issue in real game action. It's also well known he was a bit down in the dumps with the realization of the difference between quality high school competition versus that of a schedule such as ND plays.
Kelly would've had fans in Uber melt down mode had he replaced Book...the change would've been completely different than the reasons they moved on from Wimbush and no doubt it worked out quite well.
One thing the majority of posters on this board fail to recognize is the quality and scheme of the teams we are playing. Why 2nd half adjustments have grown in increasing importance the past few years. Yesterday's 2nd half emphasis on the run game in addition to the changes Lea dialed up are testaments as to how in tune this staff is with the flow of the game and why the results have been generally to our advantage. Mendenhall has a decent track record against ND, with his BYU experience, well versed in how to come into ND Stadium and have his players prepared. He's a good defensive coach and his LB's have been leading the country in sacks and QB pressures which compounds Book's issues with Happy Feet and moving out of the pocket too early. When he does that, remember the Oline have their backs to him and a little bit more difficult to get them moving in space in tandem with Book. Tough situation and a pressure D scheme will expose that over and over.
But yesterday was a good bounce back game and ND seems to have very good respect from the National Media, ironically with ESPN appearing to lead the way. This is a good team, program but not perfect and exactly what Kelly described in his post game presser. But a Win is a Win is a Win. Take it, move on to Bowling Green, keep the foot on the peddle, against a Brian Van Gorder defense no less. I fully agree with your point of having him play with the 1st unit and followed by the back up rotation as a number of players will benefit from some playing time so a great game to watch and follow.
Go Irish!
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  #28  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by irishwavend View Post
Book didn’t regress. He got figured out... Wimbush, Zaire & Kizer didn’t regress either. They just don’t progress...
The only guy out of that group with an NFL arm was Kizer. Book doesn't have an NFL arm either. That in a nutshell is the problem. Book is more serviceable than Zaire and Wimbush because he's more accurate, but the root of the problem is recruiting an accurate QB with an NFL arm.

Last edited by Frankus; 09-29-2019 at 04:02 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:39 PM
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This I agree with. I donít think the talent is as good as some people think. Wimbush, Golson, Zaire, etc. I donít think they were as talented as we thought. But thatís sometimes how it goes. We need to keep going after the top qb recruits , and getting guys that can push it downfield.
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  #30  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ndomer4 View Post
I was a skeptic of the second year regression but thereís too much evidence now to deny it.

Year one is simplified, itís usually quick throws with minimal reads to get the ball to our superior athletes. Year two things get way too complex for these guys and theyíre not ready to throw the ball 40-50 times a game.

Although I donít think any of them were all that good anyways. I still think we have a special one between Clarke, Phil, Pyne and the guy committed the next year.
Agree. Itís simplified but other teams figure that out. And when they do, our guys dont progress past it. They simply sit stagnant which results in what we see the second year...they never get better.
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  #31  
Old 09-29-2019, 04:10 PM
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I was a skeptic of the second year regression but thereís too much evidence now to deny it.

Year one is simplified, itís usually quick throws with minimal reads to get the ball to our superior athletes. Year two things get way too complex for these guys and theyíre not ready to throw the ball 40-50 times a game.
Book isn't throwing 40-50 times a game:

Louisville: 23 throws
New Mexico: 24 throws
Georgia: 47 throws
Virginia: 24 throws
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  #32  
Old 09-29-2019, 04:20 PM
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Book isn't throwing 40-50 times a game:

Louisville: 23 throws
New Mexico: 24 throws
Georgia: 47 throws
Virginia: 24 throws
Book is a guy who should be throwing the ball 20 times a game. While your right it isnít quite 40-50, you can add 10-15 passes for all the called pass plays where he ends up panicking and running for a couple yards.
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  #33  
Old 09-29-2019, 04:51 PM
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Book is a serviceable quarterback. He's mildly effective. He's the Cheerios of the quarterback world. It'll do most days, but you'd be a lot happier with Peanut Butter Captain Crunch.
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  #34  
Old 09-29-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankus View Post
Book isn't throwing 40-50 times a game:

Louisville: 23 throws
New Mexico: 24 throws
Georgia: 47 throws
Virginia: 24 throws
Thatís a little deceiving. Iíd want to know how many plays were designed to be pass plays to compensate for plays where he didnít let go of the ball whether by sack or taking off for a run.
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  #35  
Old 09-29-2019, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by irishwavend View Post
Thatís a little deceiving. Iíd want to know how many plays were designed to be pass plays to compensate for plays where he didnít let go of the ball whether by sack or taking off for a run.
At the same time though, some of those "passes" are the little flips to WR, screens, 3 yard hitches that are designed to be an extension of the run game.

The big problem is, of those 20-30 passes, very few stress the defense down the field. Teams now know that he can't throw downfield consistently, cheat up on the short stuff and can take away much of the passing game.
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  #36  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:41 PM
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I have to ask, whereís the condemnation of the OL? Am I the only one who noticed how many unblocked Defenders had shots at Book?
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  #37  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:51 PM
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The last good QB we had that got better and could sling it was Clausen. All the spread guys recruited by Kelly had limitations from the beginning.
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  #38  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:10 PM
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Kizer also does NOT fit the theory....more TDs n 16 similar stats in both 15/16
got himself into the NFL

Team was not as good in 16 but Kizer is NOT a QB that regressed.

Rees did NOT regress....in fact he got a little better...depending on how you define better.

Golson had an excellent year and a fall off but there were lots of factors there

Wimbush was never that smooth as a passer,,,didn't improve much but didn't regress either....

Malik had the injury and the KIZER great year so he also is not a textbook case of the theory

OUR QBS have not been that great,,,,,Clausen and Kizer BOTH marginal NFL talents were our best.

The rest were just never going to get Heisman votes...

RECRUITING seems to be more the issue with QBs IMHO then does some magical 2nd year Kelly curse.

aloha
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  #39  
Old 09-29-2019, 10:16 PM
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With the Irish favored by 46 against Bowling Green the game should be over at halftime. Put PJ in in the 3rd quarter and see what he does.
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2019, 11:56 PM
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Bowling Green might be worse than New Mexico. Jurkovec should have some reps. He threw a beautiful pass on his first throw against New Mexico. Other than that, he was average in that game, but did not get a lot of time.
He also had a long run and his threat to run along with a good vertical passing game is a good combination to start with. Phil's size and athletic ability gives me hope that he can lead ND to the mountain top. More skill players like Tyree and Johnson next year will make him better.
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  #41  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:00 AM
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I have to ask, whereís the condemnation of the OL? Am I the only one who noticed how many unblocked Defenders had shots at Book?
Always pointing this out, as well as the lack of push on too many run plays too.
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  #42  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:09 AM
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Book isn't throwing 40-50 times a game:

Louisville: 23 throws
New Mexico: 24 throws
Georgia: 47 throws
Virginia: 24 throws
Over the course of ten years, when playing from behind or in a close game, we tend to throw the ball a lot. Kelly and Co go full pass happy and the run game is set aside. Book probably would have thrown more yesterday had the defense not scored and been on the field as much. There was a long stretch in the second half the O was standing on the sidelines, or when they did come in seemed like 3 and out. The UL game there were a bunch of Book scrambles that were supposed to be passes too.
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  #43  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:00 AM
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I have to ask, whereís the condemnation of the OL? Am I the only one who noticed how many unblocked Defenders had shots at Book?
Book's happy feet doesn't help their cause. There have been numerous times this season the initial pocket shrinks and instead of stepping up into the pocket Ian takes off running. They haven't been great, more very good.
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  #44  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:48 PM
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For whatever reason, Book doesn't see the whole field. All of the journalists covering ND have talked about Book missing wide open guys in every game we've played this year. I think Flutie even mentioned it against Virginia.

Hopefully, everything will slow down for Book and he'll see the whole field and hit those open WRs for some big plays as the year goes on.
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  #45  
Old 09-30-2019, 04:38 PM
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I agree with everything but in reality we only see Phil if weíre up big or Ian gets hurt.

This defence was good enough to beat Georgia on the road!!! Itís a shame this season is going to be lost because of Book.

Heís the three star everyone thought he was, he should probably be at WSU right now.
The season is going to be lost because of Book? Gimme a break. The last time I checked there is no "I" in team.
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  #46  
Old 09-30-2019, 04:49 PM
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Kizer also does NOT fit the theory....more TDs n 16 similar stats in both 15/16
got himself into the NFL

Team was not as good in 16 but Kizer is NOT a QB that regressed.

Rees did NOT regress....in fact he got a little better...depending on how you define better.

Golson had an excellent year and a fall off but there were lots of factors there

Wimbush was never that smooth as a passer,,,didn't improve much but didn't regress either....

Malik had the injury and the KIZER great year so he also is not a textbook case of the theory

OUR QBS have not been that great,,,,,Clausen and Kizer BOTH marginal NFL talents were our best.

The rest were just never going to get Heisman votes...

RECRUITING seems to be more the issue with QBs IMHO then does some magical 2nd year Kelly curse.

aloha
I agree with this. Kizer has been the best QB talent at ND in the Kelly era. Kelly hasn't been able to land a dominating QB talent. Think of the progression of QB talent: Crist, Nate Montana, Hendrix, Rees, Golson, Gunner Kiel, Zaire, Kizer and Wimbush. None of these guys have gone on to do anything better after ND. If it had been Kelly's fault for bad development, then many of these guys would have dramatically improved with a change in coaching. That didn't happen. So, I think the problem is recruiting. We need a dynamic player at QB who can make big plays with his legs and arm. We're still waiting. Maybe Jurkovec is that guy. If he's as good as Kizer or better, that would be great. But if he turns out to be another Wimbush, Zaire or Golson, then Book continues to be ND's best bet right now.
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  #47  
Old 09-30-2019, 05:41 PM
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So you forget how much Kizer threw it in the dirt his last year? He sucked...

Watching this game right now, finally. It's not as bad as I anticipated. The offensive opportunities were there. We were just missing them, but it wasn't like Book was holding the ball every play with nothing down field. If we can clean that up and hit some opportunities more often, we'll do fine. Book, though, is a lot like Wimbush and Zaire, except he is a bit more accurate.

Love C'bo Flemister. What a breathe of fresh air. Don't forget also that we're better conditioned than most teams. They may stay with us for a bit and then we should overcome them in all the rest of our games. The line needs work...
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  #48  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:17 PM
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I agree with this. Kizer has been the best QB talent at ND in the Kelly era. Kelly hasn't been able to land a dominating QB talent. Think of the progression of QB talent: Crist, Nate Montana, Hendrix, Rees, Golson, Gunner Kiel, Zaire, Kizer and Wimbush. None of these guys have gone on to do anything better after ND. If it had been Kelly's fault for bad development, then many of these guys would have dramatically improved with a change in coaching. That didn't happen. So, I think the problem is recruiting. We need a dynamic player at QB who can make big plays with his legs and arm. We're still waiting. Maybe Jurkovec is that guy. If he's as good as Kizer or better, that would be great. But if he turns out to be another Wimbush, Zaire or Golson, then Book continues to be ND's best bet right now.
And if you agree with Kiser being the best, then I have a hunch for you. All the other qbís in Kellyís tenure are 5í11 or shorter. Iíve said it before and Iíll say it again. He needs a taller qb for his system. They can see over the line to connect on those crossing routes
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  #49  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:35 PM
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The season is going to be lost because of Book? Gimme a break. The last time I checked there is no "I" in team.
Yeah but there is a QB, and he just happens to play the most important position in all of sports.

You can have a defence like last years Bears team and still come up short due to poor Qb play.

Our defence can beat anyone, but our offence can’t hold up their end of the bargain because of Book. We saw it against Georgia and we will see it again sooner or later. Heck if our defence didn’t play out of their mind like they did last weekend we lose to UVA at home.
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  #50  
Old 09-30-2019, 08:18 PM
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More than anything, I've been bothered with Book having happy feet, and too early, and it seems that most every time, he's rolled right towards the pass rush (4th down attempt(s) at Georgia especially). When he's felt comfortable in the pocket and stayed in, he's gotten the ball out well. But when he feels rushed and starts moving? He's been well below average. But, many times, it seems he's felt rushed entirely too early.
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