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  #101  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:43 PM
toddrhodes toddrhodes is offline
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So I'm following this as much as I can but with respect to our past QBs, what does it say that one of the better examples (Wimbush) had to convert to WR at another school to play? Are these players literally broken after BK, to the point they can never play QB at a high level again? If it's coaching, I don't really buy that.

I just don't think we're getting top quality QBs. In year one they get a simpler playbook and that, coupled with all of the other things they have to do as an ND student, is workable. Then in year 2 (have we had a 3-year starter? Don't think so) they get more to digest and, consequently, fold up like a tent in a breeze.

I'm not refuting anything said, or even saying I wouldn't rather see Phil than Book. We know what we have in Book - and he's not getting any better. I don't see why you don't just focus more on Phil at this point. Roll the dice, we'll get a decent bowl game either way.
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  #102  
Old 10-30-2019, 12:21 AM
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So I'm following this as much as I can but with respect to our past QBs, what does it say that one of the better examples (Wimbush) had to convert to WR at another school to play? Are these players literally broken after BK, to the point they can never play QB at a high level again? If it's coaching, I don't really buy that.

I just don't think we're getting top quality QBs. In year one they get a simpler playbook and that, coupled with all of the other things they have to do as an ND student, is workable. Then in year 2 (have we had a 3-year starter? Don't think so) they get more to digest and, consequently, fold up like a tent in a breeze.

I'm not refuting anything said, or even saying I wouldn't rather see Phil than Book. We know what we have in Book - and he's not getting any better. I don't see why you don't just focus more on Phil at this point. Roll the dice, we'll get a decent bowl game either way.
Two things...first, could you say Tony was a three year starter somewhat?
Second, Pristers podcast mentioned this and they had a valid point. But coaches are there to win. Their job depends on it and they donít care what fans think. So, if Book is the best chance to win they are sticking with him. But, Iím in your boat I giving him playing time. They say Phil isnít picking up the playbook(common theme under BK) and he needed the dummy card against Bowling Green, but the guy needs to get experience and work. Itís like a graduate student looking for work in their field but all the employers keep saying is they want experienced workers. How the hell can they get experience without being given the work? Get Phil in there for two series a game and work his way in. Itís like we are always fighting an uphill battle with inexperienced qbís under BK.
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  #103  
Old 10-30-2019, 12:24 AM
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Couple of items here....Rees didn't really improve. He was always a backup who got thrust into a starting position due to necessity.

The offense was never geared toward his capabilities because he was never supposed to be our starting QB. As a freshman, he filled in for an injured Crist (already suffering from the damage from BK). He gets starting role in 2011 but since he only played a part of the 2010 season, there is no regression to mark. 2012 he is back in full time backup role because another freshman (Golson) is playing better.

Second, injury to a starting (or at least promising QB) doesn't mean there wasn't a marked regression. Both Crist and Zaire has exhibited such regression prior to their injuries.

Third, you for forgot Andrew Hendrix.
To be clear, I am not disagreeing with your overall point.

Just because Tommy Rees was supposed to be the backup doesn't mean anything. He was the starter in the last half of 2010 and the full-time starter 2011 and 2013. The reasons why he became the starter are irrelevant to the argument. He improved from 2010 to 2011 - completion percentage, yards/attempt, TD/game, INT/game, passer rating all improved. If you want to make an argument that he stagnated from 2011 to 2013, I wouldn't have much of an argument against that. Passing yards, yards/attempt, TDs, INTs, and passer rating all improved, but his completion percentage went down fairly significantly. I would disagree that he regressed, but if you want to say that he didn't improve, fine - I can't really disagree.

I didn't include Crist and Zaire because they didn't start a significant number of games in their second seasons. Crist was the full-time starter before his injury in 2010. Then, he only had one half against USF and one half (or less) against USC. That was it. It's not really fair to include him when he was not a full-time starter in his second season. He attempted 24 total passes in 2011. The same goes for Zaire. He only started two games in 2015. Then he had a job share for one game in 2016 (great idea). Neither of those quarterbacks looked great, but that's not what I was pointing out. I am looking at stats and judging starting quarterbacks from their first year starting to their second year starting. I don't have any confidence that these two would have improved based on what I said, but, it's pretty disingenuous to include them in an argument because they were not multi-year starters. If you want to include non-starters, then you'd have to say Kizer improved dramatically from 2014 to 2015, and Book from 2017 to 2018. I don't think that it's relevant to talk about non-starters, but maybe that's where we disagree.

I don't know why Hendrix would have been included as he was never the starter. He was horrible from signing day to graduation.

Again, I agree with your overall point. But you need stats/data to support it, which is why I look at guys who started multiple years for BK.

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  #104  
Old 10-30-2019, 12:34 AM
toddrhodes toddrhodes is offline
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Two things...first, could you say Tony was a three year starter somewhat?
Second, Pristers podcast mentioned this and they had a valid point. But coaches are there to win. Their job depends on it and they donít care what fans think. So, if Book is the best chance to win they are sticking with him. But, Iím in your boat I giving him playing time. They say Phil isnít picking up the playbook(common theme under BK) and he needed the dummy card against Bowling Green, but the guy needs to get experience and work. Itís like a graduate student looking for work in their field but all the employers keep saying is they want experienced workers. How the hell can they get experience without being given the work? Get Phil in there for two series a game and work his way in. Itís like we are always fighting an uphill battle with inexperienced qbís under BK.
Oh for sure, I get that he "has to win," if nothing more than to keep the recruiting class together and not completely **** off the fans.

Just seems to me that you have something of a known, and something of an undefined. With all the chips off the table, I'm not saying trot Phil out and the results be damned, but I just hope they give him and the other backup more opportunities.

And like someone else said - it sure seems like our O has the same issue as BVG's defense. Maybe kids at other schools where Football is everything can focus entirely on BK's playbook and master it (or... at least understand it) but to me, it just seems that it requires a high level of execution and we either haven't had players who can execute it, or they don't understand it, or some combination of the two.

And hell, when you HAVE to rely on the pass in those conditions, or during the hurricane a few years ago? You're doing it wrong. Sorry, this is football and it's not always going to be ideal passing conditions.
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  #105  
Old 10-30-2019, 12:42 AM
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It's been implied on other sites that Phil just isn't mentally ready to be the starting QB - he apparently doesn't take the time to review film and learn how to read a defense/set protections/know coverages/etc.
Firstly, I wouldn't put any stock in what Prister has to say. Prister was a baseball player in High School. He's never been under center and doesn't know **** about what it means to be a QB. For example, he won't ask Kelly, "what's the value of having a QB who knows the offense better if he (a) is too short to see downfield when in the pocket, missing wide open guys and (b) runs out of the pocket blowing up the pass play at the first sign of pressure?". Prister and Sampson are gonna feed this "he knows the offense better" line to their subscribers, because it's an easy out for them due to the fact that they will never ask Kelly the basic question I just asked.
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  #106  
Old 10-30-2019, 01:19 AM
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Two things...first, could you say Tony was a three year starter somewhat?
Second, Pristers podcast mentioned this and they had a valid point. But coaches are there to win. Their job depends on it and they don’t care what fans think. So, if Book is the best chance to win they are sticking with him. But, I’m in your boat I giving him playing time. They say Phil isn’t picking up the playbook(common theme under BK) and he needed the dummy card against Bowling Green, but the guy needs to get experience and work. It’s like a graduate student looking for work in their field but all the employers keep saying is they want experienced workers. How the hell can they get experience without being given the work? Get Phil in there for two series a game and work his way in. It’s like we are always fighting an uphill battle with inexperienced qb’s under BK.
This has got to be the most baffling comment I hear from Kelly, it also happens to be a recurring theme.

How on earth is this playbook so difficult to pick up? We have the same 5 run plays and besides that pathetic wide receiver screen we sure as hell don’t do anything exotic in the passing game. I see the same thing every week and I’ve even heard multiple broadcasters mention this same thing as well.

Regardless, it seems the qbs do much better here when they have the playbook ‘dumbed down’. I’m still waiting for his up tempo offence that was all the rage at Cincy.
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  #107  
Old 10-30-2019, 05:58 PM
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All this is moot.

BK being BK. Book will remains starter:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sou...7cd68.amp.html
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  #108  
Old 10-30-2019, 06:22 PM
KellyisNasty KellyisNasty is offline
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All this is moot.

BK being BK. Book will remains starter:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sou...7cd68.amp.html
Book is the QB equivalent of Brian Kelly. Just good enough to keep his job.
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  #109  
Old 10-30-2019, 09:18 PM
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Book is the QB equivalent of Brian Kelly. Just good enough to keep his job.
Is he? He has been military medium from the day he first got on the field.

He is so average it hurts. Really, really hurts.
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  #110  
Old 10-30-2019, 11:42 PM
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I've read most of this and I apologize if I repeat what some others have said.

Book has officially regressed. He is in his own head now. Against Michigan he was looking at open receivers and not throwing. If you watch the film he is actually looking at them and not throwing it. Also, he is making really poor decisions that aren't hard. I believe it was a 4th and 1 early in the game. Jafar went in motion then continued out to the right in the flat. Very hard throw to make in ideal conditions and worse in those game conditions, which Herbstreit commented on this play during the game. If you watch that play again, Jafar going in motion took the LB with him. That left Claypool one on one with a CB that had no inside help from anyone. Claypool was wide open on an inside slant for an easy throw and first down. Book threw the extremely hard pass to Jafar. My point is Book is mentally messed up now, not throwing the easy throw or even seeing it and then literally looking at open receivers and can't bring himself to throw it.

My overall issues with teh QB situation are why can ND not have a viable backup QB regularly. Fields learned the UGA and OSU offenses just fine. Several other schools can get their freshman on the field, maybe not as regular players but they are viable in certain situations (aka other teams find ways to put them in situations to succeed). Phil should be capable of at least running a drive or two to see if Book can settle down in game. Maybe seeing some meaningful plays from the sideline would actually help him.

Phil made huge strides from spring to fall. IMO, he should at least see an increase in first team reps in practice. You have to put him in the position to find out whether he can succeed or not and you have to let him make a few mistakes to work out jitters/learn. Maybe Phil isn't ready for some reason, which is on the coaches in my opinion if true. My last thought is...Some reports are saying Phil can't read the opposing defenses well enough to play but Book isn't reading/executing NDs own damn offense so how it that truly any better.
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  #111  
Old 10-30-2019, 11:53 PM
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[quote=Big23Head;727244]I've read most of this and I apologize if I repeat what some others have said.

Book has officially regressed. He is in his own head now. Against Michigan he was looking at open receivers and not throwing. If you watch the film he is actually looking at them and not throwing it. Also, he is making really poor decisions that aren't hard. I believe it was a 4th and 1 early in the game. Jafar went in motion then continued out to the right in the flat. Very hard throw to make in ideal conditions and worse in those game conditions, which Herbstreit commented on this play during the game. If you watch that play again, Jafar going in motion took the LB with him. That left Claypool one on one with a CB that had no inside help from anyone. Claypool was wide open on an inside slant for an easy throw and first down. Book threw the extremely hard pass to Jafar. My point is Book is mentally messed up now, not throwing the easy throw or even seeing it and then literally looking at open receivers and can't bring himself to throw it.

My overall issues with teh QB situation are why can ND not have a viable backup QB regularly. Fields learned the UGA and OSU offenses just fine. Several other schools can get their freshman on the field, maybe not as regular players but they are viable in certain situations (aka other teams find ways to put them in situations to succeed). Phil should be capable of at least running a drive or two to see if Book can settle down in game. Maybe seeing some meaningful plays from the sideline would actually help him.

Phil made huge strides from spring to fall. IMO, he should at least see an increase in first team reps in practice. You have to put him in the position to find out whether he can succeed or not and you have to let him make a few mistakes to work out jitters/learn. Maybe Phil isn't ready for some reason, which is on the coaches in my opinion if true. My last thought is...Some reports are saying Phil can't read the opposing defenses well enough to play but Book isn't reading/executing NDs own damn offense so how it that truly any better.[/QUOT


Thanks Big!
I agree with your last sentence whole-heartily. You also had me think about something else. Could part of the problem be that our backups are never prepared fully so there is no pressure on the starting qb until it's a big game. Then it's too late to figure things out. And by then, it's sink or swim with a starting qb who is now drowning and has no relief for a series because his back-up is completely useless because he too, didn't get the reps or preperation for the week. A damn snowball effect.
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  #112  
Old 10-31-2019, 12:12 AM
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How hard is BK offenses really? I have never been wowed by the creative ability of the offense in the entire 10 years he's been here. A good percentage of the plays are RPO and Book can't even do that effectively. Every time he should keep, he hands off and vice versa.
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  #113  
Old 10-31-2019, 01:08 AM
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Thanks Big!
I agree with your last sentence whole-heartily. You also had me think about something else. Could part of the problem be that our backups are never prepared fully so there is no pressure on the starting qb until it's a big game. Then it's too late to figure things out. And by then, it's sink or swim with a starting qb who is now drowning and has no relief for a series because his back-up is completely useless because he too, didn't get the reps or preperation for the week. A damn snowball effect.
It is possible. I also think if Patterson was a year older they may trust him more to help Phil read the defenses pre-snap and give him more of a chance.

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How hard is BK offenses really? I have never been wowed by the creative ability of the offense in the entire 10 years he's been here. A good percentage of the plays are RPO and Book can't even do that effectively. Every time he should keep, he hands off and vice versa.
According to everyone this isn't BKs offense, it is Longs. He is involved in the game plan I'm sure and saying things like run the ball or get it to Kmet. But overall what we see should be Long.
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  #114  
Old 10-31-2019, 06:20 PM
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It is possible. I also think if Patterson was a year older they may trust him more to help Phil read the defenses pre-snap and give him more of a chance.



According to everyone this isn't BKs offense, it is Longs. He is involved in the game plan I'm sure and saying things like run the ball or get it to Kmet. But overall what we see should be Long.
I am pretty sure that Kelly said that he brought Long in to run Kelly's scheme. So maybe Long holds the paintbrush but he is painting a picture by numbers that Kelly created
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  #115  
Old 10-31-2019, 06:34 PM
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One thing to note is that Ian Book last year did not play against many pass defenses that were above average. Eric Hansen has pointed this out a few times. As a result, Book's stats from last year were probably inflated somewhat compared to other ND QBs who had to face tougher pass defenses.
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  #116  
Old 11-01-2019, 02:06 AM
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One thing to note is that Ian Book last year did not play against many pass defenses that were above average. Eric Hansen has pointed this out a few times. As a result, Book's stats from last year were probably inflated somewhat compared to other ND QBs who had to face tougher pass defenses.
Ignoring stats, itís evident by just watching his play, heís not as comfortable in the pocket. I donít know what happened to him, but heís not the same QB as last yr.
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  #117  
Old 11-03-2019, 03:23 PM
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I would rather see ND lose one of their remaining games with Phil than win them all with Book. If the goal is to win a national championship next year it is pointless to play Book. He is not going to get you there.

This year does it really matter if you go 9-3 vs 10-2? The Bowl games lose their relevance more and more every year outside of the CFP. I could care less if we make a New Years Day Bowl. I want to see if Phil could be the answer.
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  #118  
Old 11-03-2019, 04:13 PM
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I would rather see ND lose one of their remaining games with Phil than win them all with Book. If the goal is to win a national championship next year it is pointless to play Book. He is not going to get you there.

This year does it really matter if you go 9-3 vs 10-2? The Bowl games lose their relevance more and more every year outside of the CFP. I could care less if we make a New Years Day Bowl. I want to see if Phil could be the answer.
This. 100% Also, how pissed are we going to be when Kelly lets Book come back for a 5th year?
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  #119  
Old 11-03-2019, 04:29 PM
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This. 100% Also, how pissed are we going to be when Kelly lets Book come back for a 5th year?
Book: future associate QB coach lol !
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  #120  
Old 11-03-2019, 05:51 PM
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I say go after JT Daniels. Heís lost his job to Slovis, itís only a matter of time before he transfers. Jurkovec is not the guy.
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  #121  
Old 11-04-2019, 12:52 PM
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I say go after JT Daniels. Heís lost his job to Slovis, itís only a matter of time before he transfers. Jurkovec is not the guy.
You are basing your opinion on Jurkovic on BKís evaluation of him. I donít put any stock into BKís ability to evaluate and/or develop QBís. Until he gets a fair opportunity in game situations to show what he can do I wonít make any evaluation on whether or not he is the guy.

Donít forget.....BK is the same coach that went into the first game of the year at Texas still playing 2 QBís when everyone in the world knew that was wrong and that Kizer was clearly the better QB. His ability to assess QB play is very suspect in my book.
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  #122  
Old 11-04-2019, 01:49 PM
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You are basing your opinion on Jurkovic on BKís evaluation of him. I donít put any stock into BKís ability to evaluate and/or develop QBís. Until he gets a fair opportunity in game situations to show what he can do I wonít make any evaluation on whether or not he is the guy.

Donít forget.....BK is the same coach that went into the first game of the year at Texas still playing 2 QBís when everyone in the world knew that was wrong and that Kizer was clearly the better QB. His ability to assess QB play is very suspect in my book.
Can he be any worse?
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  #123  
Old 11-04-2019, 03:00 PM
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You are basing your opinion on Jurkovic on BKís evaluation of him. I donít put any stock into BKís ability to evaluate and/or develop QBís. Until he gets a fair opportunity in game situations to show what he can do I wonít make any evaluation on whether or not he is the guy.

Donít forget.....BK is the same coach that went into the first game of the year at Texas still playing 2 QBís when everyone in the world knew that was wrong and that Kizer was clearly the better QB. His ability to assess QB play is very suspect in my book.
Iím going off him being awful in the Blue/Gold game and not having much zip on his passes vs Michigan. If he were substantially better than Book, heíd be starting.
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  #124  
Old 11-04-2019, 03:02 PM
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Can he be any worse?
Worse than Book? Yes. I donít think he is, but letís not act like Book is the absolute worst QB in P5. Thatís the type of moronic hyperbole that makes discussion pointless.
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  #125  
Old 11-04-2019, 03:36 PM
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Worse than Book? Yes. I donít think he is, but letís not act like Book is the absolute worst QB in P5. Thatís the type of moronic hyperbole that makes discussion pointless.

Book is awful. He is playing like a deer in the headlights since Clemson and no defense worth a lick respects him.

We won't beat anybody decent with him at QB. Give the other guy a go.
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