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  #1  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:50 PM
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"[Virginia Democratic Governor] Northam, a former pediatric neurologist, was asked about those comments and said he couldnít speak for Tran, but said that third-trimester abortions are done with 'the consent of obviously the mother, with consent of the physician, multiple physicians by the way, and itís done in cases where there may be severe deformities or there may be a fetus thatís not viable.'

'So in this particular example if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, the infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if thatís what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.'"

Euthanasia of the untouchables... This truly is Nazi. if a mother dumps her newborn in the trash, it's jail; but if a doctor kills it, it's pro-choice. Insane!

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/va-...-abortion-bill
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:19 AM
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Absolutely disgusting and wrong. How far have we fallen as a society that people can now be "god" and decide if a life is worth it or not. Sick bastards.
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:04 PM
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Absolutely disgusting and wrong. How far have we fallen as a society that people can now be "god" and decide if a life is worth it or not. Sick bastards.
We fell this far in the 1930s...
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Old 01-31-2019, 01:21 PM
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We fell this far in the 1930s...
Yep the good ole Nazis looked to many ideas promoted by American eugenists years earlier, like Margaret Sanger the founder of Planned Parenthood and self admitted racist.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:58 PM
Kelly Gruene Kelly Gruene is offline
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I'll admit I'm confused about the topic of abortion.
There's so much more to it than just a headline.
I hate that it has become the "one thing" that determines how Republicans and Democrats judge the 'fitness' of Supreme Court nominees.

Those on the political right seem to mandate no one gets an abortion, yet they don't seem to want to pay for services for children born into poverty and/or circumstances where the newborns are unwanted and are not cared for. Yes, there are opportunities to have those newborns placed into alternative care situations, but the financial support for those services is constantly under fire.

Those on the political left make this a political mine field. If a politician doesn't want to allow all abortions regardless of the situation, that politician must be against all women and women's health forever and they are just awful people.

As in the article referenced in this thread, there are certainly situations where a fetus will not be able to live. Anencephaly is one example; a fetus born without major parts of the brain. A baby born with this condition is not going to live more than a few days at most. It's just a fact that there are many women in this country who receive no prenatal care. They go the the emergency room when their membranes rupture and they are in labor. They have no knowledge of the health of the baby until the ultrasounds and fetal monitors start in the ER. So, maybe to me it's a matter of semantics. A baby born with this condition (anencephaly) will be made comfortable. We can either spend a few hundred thousand dollars keeping the baby alive on a ventilator for a few days, giving it i.v. nutrition, sticking it with needles to do a bunch of monitoring, or the mother and doctors will have conversations, as mentioned in the article, about what to do. Is it 'euthanasia of the untouchables' to instead just allow this baby to die more rapidly than doing a lot of things to it that will never ever ever change the outcome? Is it reasonable to do an abortion at this point? Semantics?

I think there are too many nuanced situations to make this a one-size-fits all conversation. Doctors and patients should be able to make decisions in some circumstances.
But of course this is just my opinion. Maybe this makes me a Nazi.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
I'll admit I'm confused about the topic of abortion.
There's so much more to it than just a headline.
I hate that it has become the "one thing" that determines how Republicans and Democrats judge the 'fitness' of Supreme Court nominees.

Those on the political right seem to mandate no one gets an abortion, yet they don't seem to want to pay for services for children born into poverty and/or circumstances where the newborns are unwanted and are not cared for. Yes, there are opportunities to have those newborns placed into alternative care situations, but the financial support for those services is constantly under fire.

Those on the political left make this a political mine field. If a politician doesn't want to allow all abortions regardless of the situation, that politician must be against all women and women's health forever and they are just awful people.

As in the article referenced in this thread, there are certainly situations where a fetus will not be able to live. Anencephaly is one example; a fetus born without major parts of the brain. A baby born with this condition is not going to live more than a few days at most. It's just a fact that there are many women in this country who receive no prenatal care. They go the the emergency room when their membranes rupture and they are in labor. They have no knowledge of the health of the baby until the ultrasounds and fetal monitors start in the ER. So, maybe to me it's a matter of semantics. A baby born with this condition (anencephaly) will be made comfortable. We can either spend a few hundred thousand dollars keeping the baby alive on a ventilator for a few days, giving it i.v. nutrition, sticking it with needles to do a bunch of monitoring, or the mother and doctors will have conversations, as mentioned in the article, about what to do. Is it 'euthanasia of the untouchables' to instead just allow this baby to die more rapidly than doing a lot of things to it that will never ever ever change the outcome? Is it reasonable to do an abortion at this point? Semantics?

I think there are too many nuanced situations to make this a one-size-fits all conversation. Doctors and patients should be able to make decisions in some circumstances.
But of course this is just my opinion. Maybe this makes me a Nazi.
I understand what you're saying. For many it does simply come down to whether or not taking a life is acceptable. Putting a chart of the development stages of a fetus in front of a person and then asking at what point is it acceptable to kill it is a telling exercise. People more often will be extremely reluctant to point out an area where the fetus is anything but a "clump of cells", because definable visual traits give people pause. Also when science enters the fray and clearly outlines that the fetus has a distinctly different set of DNA than the mother, the my body I can do what I want with it argument starts to fall apart.

The main problem is arguing situations from the outliers, similar to your example. They are not what make up the large bulk of abortions in the US. It's the same as saying what about rape and incest. I'll concede and say I'm open to discuss those situations at a greater length, if the other person can agree that the other 90%+ don't fit the outlier criteria and are "bad".

We've gone from the message provided by pro-abortion people of safe, accessible, and rare to abortion on demand anytime including after birth. Give an inch and take a mile. Polls are showing even the most dyed in the wool democrats are having a very difficult time with the extreme direction the party has taken on this issue.
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:38 AM
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I think in this particular case with the Virginia governor, it goes past the abortion debate and simply moves into infanticide. I donít know that it is fair to claim this as a true batte of the merits, or lack thereof, of abortion availability. Instead, these are people hijacking the abortion debate to support infanticide. I mean, if you can ďabortĒ a kid in the womb, and then subsequently rescuscitate the child once it comes out if the mother changes her mind, youíre talking about a human truly living in the womb. As mentioned above, this isnít debating theories regarding clumps of cells or the symbiotic relationship of a fetus that requires its mother for survival. The kids at issue, here, are just that - full blown children.

In my opinion, this governor and his like-minded affiliates are criminals on the same level as child sex predators. There is something very wrong about the articulated position that, again, really has nothing to do with true abortion.
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Old 02-05-2019, 03:44 AM
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As soon as a heartbeat can be detected it should be considered a living human IMO. I can see abortion to some degree for women that are victims of rape or incest or if their lives are in danger for some health reason and that should be at their discretion.

Post natal abortion, no bueno. How many couples unable to have children are waiting to adopt? One million? Two? I have heard horror stories about people that adopted then raised a child as their own only to go through a custody battle once the biological parent got their act together but I would take the chance.

I'm in my 50s and never had kids. I don't have many regrets but that is one, especially watching family and friends that I grew up with sharing pictures of their kids and grandkids. I'm happy for them but there will always be a little emrty spot in me.
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
I'll admit I'm confused about the topic of abortion.
There's so much more to it than just a headline.
I hate that it has become the "one thing" that determines how Republicans and Democrats judge the 'fitness' of Supreme Court nominees.

Those on the political right seem to mandate no one gets an abortion, yet they don't seem to want to pay for services for children born into poverty and/or circumstances where the newborns are unwanted and are not cared for. Yes, there are opportunities to have those newborns placed into alternative care situations, but the financial support for those services is constantly under fire.

Those on the political left make this a political mine field. If a politician doesn't want to allow all abortions regardless of the situation, that politician must be against all women and women's health forever and they are just awful people.

As in the article referenced in this thread, there are certainly situations where a fetus will not be able to live. Anencephaly is one example; a fetus born without major parts of the brain. A baby born with this condition is not going to live more than a few days at most. It's just a fact that there are many women in this country who receive no prenatal care. They go the the emergency room when their membranes rupture and they are in labor. They have no knowledge of the health of the baby until the ultrasounds and fetal monitors start in the ER. So, maybe to me it's a matter of semantics. A baby born with this condition (anencephaly) will be made comfortable. We can either spend a few hundred thousand dollars keeping the baby alive on a ventilator for a few days, giving it i.v. nutrition, sticking it with needles to do a bunch of monitoring, or the mother and doctors will have conversations, as mentioned in the article, about what to do. Is it 'euthanasia of the untouchables' to instead just allow this baby to die more rapidly than doing a lot of things to it that will never ever ever change the outcome? Is it reasonable to do an abortion at this point? Semantics?

I think there are too many nuanced situations to make this a one-size-fits all conversation. Doctors and patients should be able to make decisions in some circumstances.
But of course this is just my opinion. Maybe this makes me a Nazi.
The problem with the baby is going to die anyways thing is that once you open that can of worms you will never limit it or close it. Sure, ya start with anencephaly or some other thing that will kill the child within a few days as the only way the abortion can be performed, but everyone knows that won't be enough and the far left will want it to be opened up to many more mutations, diseases, etc.
I have a question, if a mother is killed while pregnant with a fetus that has a disorder that is considered ok to abort should the murderer be left off a second count of murder?
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:55 PM
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Iíll just throw this whole thread off tracks...sorry. But who made anyone GOD? Donít want abortions, yet want death penaltyís. Life is life, right?
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:15 PM
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Iíll just throw this whole thread off tracks...sorry. But who made anyone GOD? Donít want abortions, yet want death penaltyís. Life is life, right?
None of the above, all human life has value. Neither is very effective in detering poor decisions by an individual.
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Old 02-05-2019, 02:52 PM
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None of the above, all human life has value. Neither is very effective in detering poor decisions by an individual.
My thoughts exactly. But because we are people and people have thoughts, opinions are going to vary. And because of this, I find it fascinating on how people are so certain that their beliefs are unequivocally challenged.
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:29 PM
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The problem with the baby is going to die anyways thing is that once you open that can of worms you will never limit it or close it. Sure, ya start with anencephaly or some other thing that will kill the child within a few days as the only way the abortion can be performed, but everyone knows that won't be enough and the far left will want it to be opened up to many more mutations, diseases, etc.
I have a question, if a mother is killed while pregnant with a fetus that has a disorder that is considered ok to abort should the murderer be left off a second count of murder?
Careful now. Sounds like you're opening the "slippery slope" argument. There are those on DomerDomain that seem to get triggered when you start that type of commentary.

Also, your question is similar to a question posed by a professor in one of my sons' college courses a few months ago. If in a robbery, the robber shoots a pregnant woman and the fetus/baby dies, should the robber be charged with murder? If so, then why are mothers and doctors not charged with murder when they abort a fetus/baby at the same stage of development (regardless of inherited disorders) as the one injured by the robber?
There are reasonable answers on different sides of the discussion, but it is thought provoking.
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Old 02-05-2019, 07:51 PM
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I’ll just throw this whole thread off tracks...sorry. But who made anyone GOD? Don’t want abortions, yet want death penalty’s. Life is life, right?
That's an oversimplification of the issue. For the pro-life folks, abortion is about the right to the opportunity of life. Death penalty, however, is about accountability and deterrence - you have proven that you cannot function reasonably in our society and there are consequences. The executioner is not the one who killed you - you killed yourself. I don't think the reasons you get the death penalty are so far out there that you'd say, yes, I want that person to live next door to me. The convicted knew the rules, violated them, and knew or should have known that the consequence is death for doing something for which there is no excuse. ABSOLUTELY no excuse.

For a kid in the womb, they haven't had that opportunity, yet. The pro-life folks simply argue that the child should get its chance. Re: death penalty, I'll pull that f'ing trigger all day long and have a clear conscience knowing that you signed your death warrant, not me.

Last edited by irishwavend; 02-05-2019 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:02 PM
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None of the above, all human life has value. Neither is very effective in detering poor decisions by an individual.
1) Emory set out around 2005-2006 to prove that the death penalty had no deterrent effect. In two separate studies from the liberal school, they actually found that it did deter crime. 2) Not all human life has value. I disagree with your statement. We are simply animals of a higher order. There are lives that by genetic mutation or for environmental reasons have no value in our society and do nothing but destroy. Child sex predators come to mind... Unless the predator is doing something to redeem himself or making some large contribution versus netflixing and molesting, I don't see value in those folks.

Some things are simply inexcusable and can't be tolerated. I love the Ferguson example. In what world is it, first, ok to simply take whatever you want off the shelves of a convenience store and walk out while the owner who is half your size is yelling at you, then refuse to listen to a cop, then attack a cop to take his gun, the bull rush him...? (This is all per the grand jury testimony which contradicted all the bs hands up don't shoot crap) If my kids did that and got shot, I'd be pissed, but not at the cop. I'd tell them, you asked for it, because there is absolutely ZERO excuse for that crap. ZERO. Each one of those actions led to your death. And according to those actions, I'd say you were a person of little value to our society versus the straight A student from inner city Pittsburgh who is simply walking home from school and gets taken out by a gangbanger "just because." Value and no value.

Last edited by irishwavend; 02-05-2019 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 08:32 PM
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Death penalty, however, is about accountability and deterrence - you have proven that you cannot function reasonably in our society and there are consequences. The executioner is not the one who killed you - you killed yourself. I don't think the reasons you get the death penalty are so far out there that you'd say, yes, I want that person to live next door to me. The convicted knew the rules, violated them, and knew or should have known that the consequence is death for doing something for which there is no excuse. ABSOLUTELY no excuse.
Except for those who are wrongfully convicted and placed on death row. It happens more than you think.
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/lega.../deathpenalty/
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocen...reed-death-row

Netflix has a very interesting series called 'The Innocent Man'. It is a six part series that tracks 4 men wrongfully convicted in Ada, Oklahoma, one of whom was 5 days away from execution when a stay was ordered. Fascinating documentary of a book by John Grisham; it's his only non-fiction book. Definitely worth a view.

I'm not actually completely against the death penalty but as more and more comes to light I think I'd prefer to abolish it and just keep people in prison rather than execute them.

Sorry to go so off topic.

Last edited by Kelly Gruene; 02-05-2019 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 02-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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That's an oversimplification of the issue. For the pro-life folks, abortion is about the right to the opportunity of life. Death penalty, however, is about accountability and deterrence - you have proven that you cannot function reasonably in our society and there are consequences. The executioner is not the one who killed you - you killed yourself. I don't think the reasons you get the death penalty are so far out there that you'd say, yes, I want that person to live next door to me. The convicted knew the rules, violated them, and knew or should have known that the consequence is death for doing something for which there is no excuse. ABSOLUTELY no excuse.

For a kid in the womb, they haven't had that opportunity, yet. The pro-life folks simply argue that the child should get its chance. Re: death penalty, I'll pull that f'ing trigger all day long and have a clear conscience knowing that you signed your death warrant, not me.
It is, but isnít that the point? We automatically take sides of this equation with complete disregard to life. Why? Because it fits our narrative? Playing GOD is still playing GOD.
As for the Emory College article you mentioned, I find it hard to believe-study or not- that a murderous criminal is actually stopping and thinking, weíll, maybe I wonít kill this guy today because Iím in a state where I might get the death penalty.

As for pulling that lever for the electric chair, their was a good show that explained how these executioners have deep depression and psychological trauma after the fact. There was a reason back in the day when they lined a guy up against the wall they put one bullet in a ransoms soldiers gun so that nobody knew who was the one who actually killed the person.

I would also like to say, I have not actually shared my true feelings on this matter. Iím only interested in the banter of this discussion. It is really one that intrigues me.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:27 PM
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It is, but isnít that the point? We automatically take sides of this equation with complete disregard to life. Why? Because it fits our narrative? Playing GOD is still playing GOD.
As for the Emory College article you mentioned, I find it hard to believe-study or not- that a murderous criminal is actually stopping and thinking, weíll, maybe I wonít kill this guy today because Iím in a state where I might get the death penalty.

As for pulling that lever for the electric chair, their was a good show that explained how these executioners have deep depression and psychological trauma after the fact. There was a reason back in the day when they lined a guy up against the wall they put one bullet in a ransoms soldiers gun so that nobody knew who was the one who actually killed the person.

I would also like to say, I have not actually shared my true feelings on this matter. Iím only interested in the banter of this discussion. It is really one that intrigues me.
Firing squads actually removed a live round and replaced with a blank in one persons gun. Sorry to correct.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:35 PM
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1) Emory set out around 2005-2006 to prove that the death penalty had no deterrent effect. In two separate studies from the liberal school, they actually found that it did deter crime. 2) Not all human life has value. I disagree with your statement. We are simply animals of a higher order. There are lives that by genetic mutation or for environmental reasons have no value in our society and do nothing but destroy. Child sex predators come to mind... Unless the predator is doing something to redeem himself or making some large contribution versus netflixing and molesting, I don't see value in those folks.

Some things are simply inexcusable and can't be tolerated. I love the Ferguson example. In what world is it, first, ok to simply take whatever you want off the shelves of a convenience store and walk out while the owner who is half your size is yelling at you, then refuse to listen to a cop, then attack a cop to take his gun, the bull rush him...? (This is all per the grand jury testimony which contradicted all the bs hands up don't shoot crap) If my kids did that and got shot, I'd be pissed, but not at the cop. I'd tell them, you asked for it, because there is absolutely ZERO excuse for that crap. ZERO. Each one of those actions led to your death. And according to those actions, I'd say you were a person of little value to our society versus the straight A student from inner city Pittsburgh who is simply walking home from school and gets taken out by a gangbanger "just because." Value and no value.
I would disagree with the Emory study simply because people aren't thinking about the consequences while committing a capital crime or really any others. It's really a difficult thing to measure and collect data on anyhow IMO.

The human life has value is my personal belief. I understand what your saying against child predators and the like, and if I caught one in the act would have a difficult time not beating the life out of them. I'm not above the concept of killing people in the defense of yourself or others and in the time of war.
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:35 AM
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I would disagree with the Emory study simply because people aren't thinking about the consequences while committing a capital crime or really any others. It's really a difficult thing to measure and collect data on anyhow IMO.

The human life has value is my personal belief. I understand what your saying against child predators and the like, and if I caught one in the act would have a difficult time not beating the life out of them. I'm not above the concept of killing people in the defense of yourself or others and in the time of war.
Just finished the Bundy tapes on Netflix. A decent watch. Anyways, before Bundy was executed he helped the police catch the green river seriel killer. Also, helped the FBI in how they looked at murderers.
I also found it interesting somewhat, that although I know it was his mother speaking for Bundy, she brought up being a strong Christian woman who didnít believe in doing ďGods workĒ as I mentioned in the past. Of giving Bundy only a life sentence...That he could still be a help to society. In this case it was the police.
Last note, before they executed Bundy, he mentioned that he murdered 30 maybe but he wasnít sure. But his appeals were up and he was going to be executed the next day. I wonder, if they had delayed his execution if they could had gotten more information on the whereabouts of the other victims(if true). Iím sure the families of missing would of loved to know where the bodies were for proper burial purposes.
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:59 AM
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Careful now. Sounds like you're opening the "slippery slope" argument. There are those on DomerDomain that seem to get triggered when you start that type of commentary.

Also, your question is similar to a question posed by a professor in one of my sons' college courses a few months ago. If in a robbery, the robber shoots a pregnant woman and the fetus/baby dies, should the robber be charged with murder? If so, then why are mothers and doctors not charged with murder when they abort a fetus/baby at the same stage of development (regardless of inherited disorders) as the one injured by the robber?
There are reasonable answers on different sides of the discussion, but it is thought provoking.
Very good argument by that professor indeed. When does life become life? The argument used to be a "ball of cells" is not life. Now the extreme left took it to the level of a full grown baby can be executed! It is very disheartening to think about and when i heard it for the first time it almost made me nauseous as my two sons were ripping apart the living room lol. I remembered the day each of them was born and thought how the hell could you kill that! It is pure evil if you ask me.
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Old 02-06-2019, 09:51 AM
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Just finished the Bundy tapes on Netflix. A decent watch. Anyways, before Bundy was executed he helped the police catch the green river seriel killer. Also, helped the FBI in how they looked at murderers.
I also found it interesting somewhat, that although I know it was his mother speaking for Bundy, she brought up being a strong Christian woman who didnít believe in doing ďGods workĒ as I mentioned in the past. Of giving Bundy only a life sentence...That he could still be a help to society. In this case it was the police.
Last note, before they executed Bundy, he mentioned that he murdered 30 maybe but he wasnít sure. But his appeals were up and he was going to be executed the next day. I wonder, if they had delayed his execution if they could had gotten more information on the whereabouts of the other victims(if true). Iím sure the families of missing would of loved to know where the bodies were for proper burial purposes.
I remember when he was executed and how we discussed his cooperation with LE in solving cases, namely his own, in HS. I saw the entry for that on Netflix. Anyway his "value" so to speak and others like him may lie in the ability to study them and learn about what makes someone a killer like that. Others may disagree of course.

I've evolved on the death penalty from my youth, and still see arguments for it. I used to even say to pro- abortion folks you kill your way and i will mine, but at least I'm not killing the innocent. The problem a lot of people have is that there are really evil SOBs who get back out on reduced sentences etc and continue to prey on society in the worst ways. When is enough, enough and some finality brought to bear against them? Lock them up and throw away the key or terminate them?
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  #23  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:05 AM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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Originally Posted by ObieKnobbe View Post
Very good argument by that professor indeed. When does life become life? The argument used to be a "ball of cells" is not life. Now the extreme left took it to the level of a full grown baby can be executed! It is very disheartening to think about and when i heard it for the first time it almost made me nauseous as my two sons were ripping apart the living room lol. I remembered the day each of them was born and thought how the hell could you kill that! It is pure evil if you ask me.
Agree with your last part 100%! Needless to say this has been something that hit my life two years ago. It ripped my heart out and i still have difficuly coming to terms with an awful decision and being around that person who is close to you. Its really hard dealing with what should have been without going much more into it.
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2019, 02:56 PM
ckp160 ckp160 is offline
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I'm a pretty liberal guy. I'm for freedom of choice and all that. However, I can't get behind post birth abortion. There's a word for that.... MURDER.
What's happening is the extreme left is turning the post birth thing into a women's rights issue. They're saying "her body her choice". If you don't agree with the post birth thing somehow you're a right wing crackpot who is a misogynist.

Something that should be addressed is the fact that post birth abortions are extremely rare. It's basically a mistake happened. They tried to abort, it wasn't successful and the baby was born alive. I don't know how much time should be wasted on arguing over something that is extremely rare. Something like less than a hundred happen a year? Statistically that's a huge rarity.
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Old 04-12-2019, 04:02 PM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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Originally Posted by ckp160 View Post
I'm a pretty liberal guy. I'm for freedom of choice and all that. However, I can't get behind post birth abortion. There's a word for that.... MURDER.
What's happening is the extreme left is turning the post birth thing into a women's rights issue. They're saying "her body her choice". If you don't agree with the post birth thing somehow you're a right wing crackpot who is a misogynist.

Something that should be addressed is the fact that post birth abortions are extremely rare. It's basically a mistake happened. They tried to abort, it wasn't successful and the baby was born alive. I don't know how much time should be wasted on arguing over something that is extremely rare. Something like less than a hundred happen a year? Statistically that's a huge rarity.
Its higher than 100. Can't remember the source. I think there are generally around 400-500k abortions a year in the US. Of those there are a few thousand late term, and they are not all due to medical complications. Its a small number percentage wise compared to the total number of abortions, but thats a lot.

There is a lot of word manipulation when it comes to the pro abortion backers, by design. I believe the current head of PP said to the effect why hide whats actually going on and the services they provide and make their money on.
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