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  #201  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:31 AM
golson5 golson5 is offline
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Originally Posted by ndmike88 View Post
Thanks for calling me out. If I had said a top 10 team in the past 2.5 years would that be more realistic?
And yet people think Kelly can win a National Championship. Give me a break.
You'd still be wrong because Stanford was ranked 7th last year when we played them
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  #202  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:50 AM
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You'd still be wrong because Stanford was ranked 7th last year when we played them
Even the blind squirrel finds the nut once and awhile.
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  #203  
Old 11-13-2019, 12:51 AM
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You'd still be wrong because Stanford was ranked 7th last year when we played them
None of the games you mentioned were truly big time games. None. LSU was the closest but that was a bowl game of no consequence.

We have gotten rolled by Bama, OSU, Mich, Miami, Clemson, Texas, Georgia twice. These are ďtruly big gamesĒ and we lose every one of them and most of them we got rolled.

BK is not a big game coach by any legitimate standard. I could care less about winning 9 games on a schedule where we are favored by 10+ points. I judge a coach on how he does against legitimate top 10 competition in meaningful games.

BK has failed nearly every one of those situations.
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  #204  
Old 11-13-2019, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ELDER06 View Post
A lot of those were Weis recruits.
So according to you, Kelly won in year 3 with Weis's recruits

Also according to you, Kelly is recruiting as well as anyone can recruit at ND

So wouldn't a new coach be able to win with Kelly's recruits in his first few years?
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  #205  
Old 11-13-2019, 02:05 AM
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None of the games you mentioned were truly big time games. None. LSU was the closest but that was a bowl game of no consequence.

We have gotten rolled by Bama, OSU, Mich, Miami, Clemson, Texas, Georgia twice. These are “truly big games” and we lose every one of them and most of them we got rolled.

BK is not a big game coach by any legitimate standard. I could care less about winning 9 games on a schedule where we are favored by 10+ points. I judge a coach on how he does against legitimate top 10 competition in meaningful games.

BK has failed nearly every one of those situations.
I think that's revisionist history. Let me first say that I don't disagree with the general premise that BK can't win big games - we've seen it time and time again. Whether it's heartbreakers (Georgia '17, Georgia '19) or blow outs (Miami '17, Clemson '18, Michigan '19), the one constant is that ND has not been able to win most of those big games.

That being said, ND has won some big games over the last 3 years. (I am only counting games played from 2017 because it's obvious that after the 2016 disaster, the program did a face lift - that goes both ways, in that I won't bring up Stanford '12, Oklahoma '12, FSU '14, Clemson '15 or Alabama '12).

The USC game in 2017 is a good example. USC was ranked #11 and ND was #13. USC was coming off a Rose Bowl win the year before. They had Darnold at QB, who was widely considered one of the best QBs in the country. And ND just absolutely dominated them. USC won out - including the PAC-12 Champsionship - until they faced OSU in the Cotton Bowl. They finished #12 in the AP and #10 in the Coaches.

Michigan in 2018 is another example. Huge rivalry game. Ranked #14 in the country. Gameday was there. Huge expectations for both teams going into the season. That win propelled ND to an undefeated season. Michigan won the next 10 games until they ran into a buzzsaw in Columbus. They finished #14.

Now, those are definitely not Top 5 wins - I am not saying that - but those were definitely big wins at the time against two of ND's biggest rivals. Those teams had fairly good years (unlike Stanford last year who was #7 in the AP when ND beat them and finished the year unranked).

Your point still stands though, BK has not won enough of these games. I just think it's not entirely accurate to say that he hasn't won any in the last 2-3 years.
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  #206  
Old 11-13-2019, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kid Gloves View Post
None of the games you mentioned were truly big time games. None. LSU was the closest but that was a bowl game of no consequence.

We have gotten rolled by Bama, OSU, Mich, Miami, Clemson, Texas, Georgia twice. These are ďtruly big gamesĒ and we lose every one of them and most of them we got rolled.

BK is not a big game coach by any legitimate standard. I could care less about winning 9 games on a schedule where we are favored by 10+ points. I judge a coach on how he does against legitimate top 10 competition in meaningful games.

BK has failed nearly every one of those situations.
We were talking about the last 3 years and we didnt play Bama OSU and Texas. You also forgot we beat Michigan. But because we won that one it wasnt big? We beat USC when they were 11 but that wasnt big yet
the Michigan loss they were ranked what 18. How was that bigger?

Texas never rolled us btw. But we rolled them. The loss was big and the win wasnt because it fits your narrative?
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  #207  
Old 11-13-2019, 06:41 AM
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We were talking about the last 3 years and we didnt play Bama OSU and Texas. You also forgot we beat Michigan. But because we won that one it wasnt big? We beat USC when they were 11 but that wasnt big yet
the Michigan loss they were ranked what 18. How was that bigger?

Texas never rolled us btw. But we rolled them. The loss was big and the win wasnt because it fits your narrative?
I didnít understand you were talking about the last 2 years. I was going by BKís entire 10 year history.

But either way my point is proven. We have nearly no wins over any top 10 teams. I wasnít forgetting we played Michigan, I just donít consider that a big time win that year given how the rest of the year played out for them. When we played Texas at home they were terrible. When we played them on the road it was a much bigger game, it was on the road, and it was the only nationally televised game on that day. The entire nation was watching so yeah I would say that is a big game. And SC was not a top 10 team. They really havenít been a top team the last 4-5 years.

Nearly all of our games against legitimate, top of CFB top 10 teams we have not fared well. Iím sorry if I donít count wins over NW, Syr, Va Tech, temple, navy, etc as big time wins. They are nice wins but honestly games we should have won. I canít believe you can honestly defend BKís record in legitimate big time games. I could see you trying to defend him for other reasons but certainly not for his record in top 10 games.
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  #208  
Old 11-13-2019, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tneun89 View Post
I think that's revisionist history. Let me first say that I don't disagree with the general premise that BK can't win big games - we've seen it time and time again. Whether it's heartbreakers (Georgia '17, Georgia '19) or blow outs (Miami '17, Clemson '18, Michigan '19), the one constant is that ND has not been able to win most of those big games.

That being said, ND has won some big games over the last 3 years. (I am only counting games played from 2017 because it's obvious that after the 2016 disaster, the program did a face lift - that goes both ways, in that I won't bring up Stanford '12, Oklahoma '12, FSU '14, Clemson '15 or Alabama '12).

The USC game in 2017 is a good example. USC was ranked #11 and ND was #13. USC was coming off a Rose Bowl win the year before. They had Darnold at QB, who was widely considered one of the best QBs in the country. And ND just absolutely dominated them. USC won out - including the PAC-12 Champsionship - until they faced OSU in the Cotton Bowl. They finished #12 in the AP and #10 in the Coaches.

Michigan in 2018 is another example. Huge rivalry game. Ranked #14 in the country. Gameday was there. Huge expectations for both teams going into the season. That win propelled ND to an undefeated season. Michigan won the next 10 games until they ran into a buzzsaw in Columbus. They finished #14.

Now, those are definitely not Top 5 wins - I am not saying that - but those were definitely big wins at the time against two of ND's biggest rivals. Those teams had fairly good years (unlike Stanford last year who was #7 in the AP when ND beat them and finished the year unranked).

Your point still stands though, BK has not won enough of these games. I just think it's not entirely accurate to say that he hasn't won any in the last 2-3 years.
Again as I said in my other post, I am looking at mostly his record in top 10 games. The SC and Mich wins are nice, but I donít think many people considered those teams in those years to be the top of cfb.

I just donít think we have fared well against the top teams in the country in BKs tenure. I know you said that is your overall feeling as well but I guess I donít give him as much credit as you do for a couple more decent wins.
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  #209  
Old 11-13-2019, 05:08 PM
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So according to you, Kelly won in year 3 with Weis's recruits

Also according to you, Kelly is recruiting as well as anyone can recruit at ND

So wouldn't a new coach be able to win with Kelly's recruits in his first few years?
Exactly. thank you
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  #210  
Old 11-13-2019, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown_9999 View Post
So according to you, Kelly won in year 3 with Weis's recruits

Also according to you, Kelly is recruiting as well as anyone can recruit at ND

So wouldn't a new coach be able to win with Kelly's recruits in his first few years?
Thatís assuming they donít lose a lot of those recruits. Itís always a huge gamble.
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  #211  
Old 11-13-2019, 07:11 PM
KellyisNasty KellyisNasty is offline
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Thatís assuming they donít lose a lot of those recruits. Itís always a huge gamble.
Depends on the coach that they get. If its someone exciting or with a history of developing their specific position, recruits usually stay on.

If the coach leaves in a tumultuous fashion akin to a dumpster fire, you lose the top ones for sure. It's always dependent on the hire and the way the administration conducts itself in the transition.
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  #212  
Old 11-13-2019, 10:13 PM
ELDER06 ELDER06 is offline
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Depends on the coach that they get. If its someone exciting or with a history of developing their specific position, recruits usually stay on.

If the coach leaves in a tumultuous fashion akin to a dumpster fire, you lose the top ones for sure. It's always dependent on the hire and the way the administration conducts itself in the transition.
You also lose most of the Assts who did a lot of the recruiting. That’s why I keep saying it’s not a turn key job like some people think. It’s only that way if you hire internally and that’s assuming there’s no jealousy/hard feelings in who was picked.
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  #213  
Old 11-14-2019, 04:39 AM
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A lot of those were Weis recruits.
Yet, nobody says that for Charlieís 4th and 5th years, those were Tyís lack of recruits... Charlie got dealt a pretty crappy hand. In his first year, he still had Davie recruits and Tyís first year recruiting class. Then, he had to endure the self-imposed probation Ty put us on for two years... Granted Charlie was also predictable, but the one thing he did for us was restock the cupboard so that the job was attractive again. It gave Kelly something to build on and definitively removed the excuse that you canít recruit at Notre Dame.
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  #214  
Old 11-14-2019, 02:55 PM
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Yet, nobody says that for Charlie’s 4th and 5th years, those were Ty’s lack of recruits... Charlie got dealt a pretty crappy hand. In his first year, he still had Davie recruits and Ty’s first year recruiting class. Then, he had to endure the self-imposed probation Ty put us on for two years... Granted Charlie was also predictable, but the one thing he did for us was restock the cupboard so that the job was attractive again. It gave Kelly something to build on and definitively removed the excuse that you can’t recruit at Notre Dame.
Weis was a solid Offensive coach. You could legitimately argue they had one of the best group of skill players in the country his final yr. Clausen, Tate, Floyd, Rudolph. However, his Defenses were so bad.
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  #215  
Old 11-14-2019, 03:04 PM
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Weis was a solid Offensive coach. You could legitimately argue they had one of the best group of skill players in the country his final yr. Clausen, Tate, Floyd, Rudolph. However, his Defenses were so bad.
And his last year he finally landed Teo which led to one of our most dominant defenses ever in 2012. And even though Fox, Calabrese, and Motts were three stars, they were all starters for that 2012 team. Face it, Weis knew talent. It was just too late. But I wonder what would had happened if he stayed one more year. What would the following class had looked liked.
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  #216  
Old 11-14-2019, 04:57 PM
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And his last year he finally landed Teo which led to one of our most dominant defenses ever in 2012. And even though Fox, Calabrese, and Motts were three stars, they were all starters for that 2012 team. Face it, Weis knew talent. It was just too late. But I wonder what would had happened if he stayed one more year. What would the following class had looked liked.
Weis' recruiting classes were bad because they were so unbalanced. He didnt recruit the lines of scrimmages well which was his biggest weakness.
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  #217  
Old 11-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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Weis' recruiting classes were bad because they were so unbalanced. He didnt recruit the lines of scrimmages well which was his biggest weakness.
Yeah, looking at the DL recruits from Ď06-Ď09 is really rough. He did get a lot of value from guys like Dan Fox, Harrison Smith, Kapron Lewis-Moore (recruited as an OLB).
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