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Old 11-27-2020, 06:16 PM
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Default Recruiting vs player development

I think it’s safe to say our player development has surpassed our recruiting efforts as of late. I think all the coaches get credit here, however I think this was more noticeable after hiring Balis.

One of the big arguments around here is the lack of five stars. Although I have gone here in the past, I have a different view.

First off, many five stars don’t pan out. Bama could have 30, but 15 might never live up to expectations and even more than that might not contribute during a given season. Conversely, a team might have 3-4 stars that surpassed expectations and have turned into five stars. Sure depth matters (in Bama’s case), but how many contribute?

Let’s look at our roster. How many players contributing would be considered 5 star college players due to production, as well as talent?

JOK- originally a 3 star.
Mayer- originally a 4 star.
Eichenberg- originally a 4 star.
Hamilton- originally a 4 star.
Hayes- originally a 4/5 star.
Tommy Kramer- originally a 4 star.
Isaiah Foskey- originally a 4 star.

These are starters or significant contributors. Not a ton of debate here IMO, Foskey will get there if not there yet. How about guys who could develop into 5 star college players and/or were fringe 5 stars.

Kyren Williams- originally a 3 star.
Chris Tyree- originally a 4 star.
Jordan Johnson- originally a 5 star.
Tommy Tremble- originally a 3 star.
Quinn Carroll- originally a 4 star.
Zeneca Correll- originally a 4 star.
Tosh Baker- originally a 4 star.
Drew Pyne- originally a 4 star.
Jarrett Patterson- originally a 3 star.
Rylie Mills- originally a 4 star.
MTA- originally a 3 star.
Jack Lamb- originally a 4 star.
Shayne Simon- originally a 4 star.
Isaiah Pryor- originally a 4 star.
Bo Bauer- originally a 4 star.
Jordan Botelho- originally a 4 star.
Kevin Austin- originally a 4 star.
Braden Lenzy- originally a 4 star.

Recruits- Fisher, Rubio, Buchner, Colzie, Spindler, Thomas and Riley.

Now this list is up for debate, however it is a list of players who are either playing at a 4 star level and could elevate to a 5 star level, or it is based purely on talent/potential.

What this does show is that even without 5 star recruits, Notre Dame has developed It’s players. It also shows we have high quality depth at nearly every level of defense and all offensive units.

The one glaring weakness is our secondary depth, there is not enough elite level talent there. This is what could potentially derail us in a Clemson rematch, or game versus Ohio State or Bama. Despite the star ratings, ND is in the best state it has been in since Holtz’s teams from 88-93 (this is an assumption since I was born in 93 and only ready Lou’s book).

Last edited by ndomer4; 11-27-2020 at 06:28 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2020, 07:12 PM
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FaithInIrishForever FaithInIrishForever is offline
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Originally Posted by ndomer4 View Post
I think itís safe to say our player development has surpassed our recruiting efforts as of late. I think all the coaches get credit here, however I think this was more noticeable after hiring Balis.

One of the big arguments around here is the lack of five stars. Although I have gone here in the past, I have a different view.

First off, many five stars donít pan out. Bama could have 30, but 15 might never live up to expectations and even more than that might not contribute during a given season. Conversely, a team might have 3-4 stars that surpassed expectations and have turned into five stars. Sure depth matters (in Bamaís case), but how many contribute?

Letís look at our roster. How many players contributing would be considered 5 star college players due to production, as well as talent?

JOK- originally a 3 star.
Mayer- originally a 4 star.
Eichenberg- originally a 4 star.
Hamilton- originally a 4 star.
Hayes- originally a 4/5 star.
Tommy Kramer- originally a 4 star.
Isaiah Foskey- originally a 4 star.

These are starters or significant contributors. Not a ton of debate here IMO, Foskey will get there if not there yet. How about guys who could develop into 5 star college players and/or were fringe 5 stars.

Kyren Williams- originally a 3 star.
Chris Tyree- originally a 4 star.
Jordan Johnson- originally a 5 star.
Tommy Tremble- originally a 3 star.
Quinn Carroll- originally a 4 star.
Zeneca Correll- originally a 4 star.
Tosh Baker- originally a 4 star.
Drew Pyne- originally a 4 star.
Jarrett Patterson- originally a 3 star.
Rylie Mills- originally a 4 star.
MTA- originally a 3 star.
Jack Lamb- originally a 4 star.
Shayne Simon- originally a 4 star.
Isaiah Pryor- originally a 4 star.
Bo Bauer- originally a 4 star.
Jordan Botelho- originally a 4 star.
Kevin Austin- originally a 4 star.
Braden Lenzy- originally a 4 star.

Recruits- Fisher, Rubio, Buchner, Colzie, Spindler, Thomas and Riley.

Now this list is up for debate, however it is a list of players who are either playing at a 4 star level and could elevate to a 5 star level, or it is based purely on talent/potential.

What this does show is that even without 5 star recruits, Notre Dame has developed Itís players. It also shows we have high quality depth at nearly every level of defense and all offensive units.

The one glaring weakness is our secondary depth, there is not enough elite level talent there. This is what could potentially derail us in a Clemson rematch, or game versus Ohio State or Bama. Despite the star ratings, ND is in the best state it has been in since Holtzís teams from 88-93 (this is an assumption since I was born in 93 and only ready Louís book).
I think we're recruiting at 8-10 and ranked #2 so I would agree. Kelly stopped chasing as many football "stars" after the Lynch ordeal. It hurt us in 2016 when the defensive player development lagged(BVG era) but when he fixed it with Elko Lea it has worked again.


I agree with JBrown we still need "stars" but it still has to be the right kinda "stars"
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2020, 07:33 PM
coltssb coltssb is offline
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I can agree somewhat. But look at who has won the past few championships. They have had a 5 star qb leading the way. Lawrence, Watson, Tua, Burrow....You need that guy who can make that play when things arenít going the way it should. Book did that against Clemson but heís going to need to continue to do that.

Also, someone said a long time ago(I canít remember who), but they knew someone with the program and ND lacked either the coaches or recruiting to be top notch. But as soon as Baliís was hired, they said we should now start to see ND catch up with the other top programs. We have seen that since his hire. So much kudos to Balis.

Also, the Lea hire/throw in was a complete steal. He has did wonders since taking over also.

Now they just need that amazing recruiter to pull in the guys and ND would be back at the level of Holtzís days.
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Old 11-27-2020, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever View Post
I think we're recruiting at 8-10 and ranked #2 so I would agree. Kelly stopped chasing as many football "stars" after the Lynch ordeal. It hurt us in 2016 when the defensive player development lagged(BVG era) but when he fixed it with Elko Lea it has worked again.


I agree with JBrown we still need "stars" but it still has to be the right kinda "stars"
I should add that even though we lack elite talent in the back end, the discipline and fundamentals of Leaís defense disguise that a bit.
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Old 11-28-2020, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by FaithInIrishForever View Post
I think we're recruiting at 8-10 and ranked #2 so I would agree. Kelly stopped chasing as many football "stars" after the Lynch ordeal. It hurt us in 2016 when the defensive player development lagged(BVG era) but when he fixed it with Elko Lea it has worked again.


I agree with JBrown we still need "stars" but it still has to be the right kinda "stars"
Yep. You hot the nail on the head, Faith
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Old 11-28-2020, 06:04 PM
ELDER06 ELDER06 is offline
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I should add that even though we lack elite talent in the back end, the discipline and fundamentals of Lea’s defense disguise that a bit.
Hamilton is elite. The Corners are definitely the “weakness” on this Defense. And by weakness, I mean they’re average. They’re not lockdown cvg guys, but they’re also not a bunch of Gary Grays
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:52 PM
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Gary Grays
I thought it was an unwritten rule that shall not speak his name...

I have always been a 50/50 nature/nurture type of guy. 5* players are more likely to be amazing than 3* players, but most most rosters (except Bama and OSU) are made up of low 4* and 3* star talent, so you need to get 5* talent out of those lower ranked guys. The coach who can get more 5* talent out of 3* recruits will probably do better than the coach who gets a couple more 5* players. Obviously, it would be ideal to get the best of both worlds: Give me 2-3 5* recruits every year and get plenty of diamonds in the rough from many of the 3* recruits.
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:25 AM
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I can agree somewhat. But look at who has won the past few championships. They have had a 5 star qb leading the way. Lawrence, Watson, Tua, Burrow....You need that guy who can make that play when things aren’t going the way it should. Book did that against Clemson but he’s going to need to continue to do that.

Also, someone said a long time ago(I can’t remember who), but they knew someone with the program and ND lacked either the coaches or recruiting to be top notch. But as soon as Bali’s was hired, they said we should now start to see ND catch up with the other top programs. We have seen that since his hire. So much kudos to Balis.

Also, the Lea hire/throw in was a complete steal. He has did wonders since taking over
Now they just need that amazing recruiter to pull in the guys and ND would be back at the level of Holtz’s days.
Burrow was not a 5 star. He was a low end 4.
Mac Jones is most likely gonna win the Heisman and could also win a title and he is a 3 star. Look at Trask out of Florida, also a 3* star.
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Old 12-03-2020, 02:11 PM
AtLeastMySisWasIrish AtLeastMySisWasIrish is offline
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Don't forget what Kelly referenced last year as a key to their recruiting, build depth on the roster from 65-85 and it's come to fruition this year as we've never rotated as many players and the results speak for themselves. Depth is the key and trends to being the 3*'s referenced and they've come thru better than we fans could've hoped for. Heck, we rotate 10 guys on the Dline! 5 deep on TE's, safety...yes, CB needed work but the class of '21 has gone a long way to improving and if the pan out, won't be a weakness going forward. GO IRISH!
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