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  #51  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:33 PM
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irishwavend irishwavend is offline
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I think because Trump does as he pleases so it has started with people/states doing whatever they believe they can do. Like Trump or not, he has started a **** storm in Washington. I hate to see it because when Dems finally take office you better believe they will start acting a petulant child too. Trump lied 10,000 times in the open, Dems will lie 10,001. What a mess our country has become in that regard. Maybe itís always been this way....I donít know.
Pretty sure Obama started the "Do whatever you want attitude" when he was picking and choosing what laws he wanted to enforce or how to justify it unconstitutionally...

As a tax person, I'll tell you this. Trump's tax returns won't tell you sh*t that is applicable to the Presidency, especially now that he has a resume of Presidential acts. I mean, his economy is smashing everything Democrats like Obama and his "economists" said couldn't be done. Why? Because Democrats love to give people scraps to ensure they stay in power. They know that if they grow the economy too quickly it will 1) undermine their liberal antagonism of corporations, etc, and 2) it will ultimately stop growing which is a political liability as the economy maximizes all of its potential. Democrats see that as a bad thing... Trump's economy is common sense.

Yes, I agree he's unprofessional as sh*t, but he's making progress in a lot of in the areas that truly matter to people trying to take care of their families. All the liberal social ideals will naturally follow in a good economy. In a crap economy, nobody cares about liberal social ideals - they just want to make sure they can feed their families. It's all right in front of them, but Dems seem to get in their own way...hell, look at AOC and Amazon.
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  #52  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:45 PM
coltssb coltssb is offline
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[quote=irishwavend;722723]Pretty sure Obama started the "Do whatever you want attitude" when he was picking and choosing what laws he wanted to enforce or how to justify it unconstitutionally...

As a tax person, I'll tell you this. Trump's tax returns won't tell you sh*t that is applicable to the Presidency, especially now that he has a resume of Presidential acts. I mean, his economy is smashing everything Democrats like Obama and his "economists" said couldn't be done. Why? Because Democrats love to give people scraps to ensure they stay in power. They know that if they grow the economy too quickly it will 1) undermine their liberal antagonism of corporations, etc, and 2) it will ultimately stop growing which is a political liability as the economy maximizes all of its potential. Democrats see that as a bad thing... Trump's economy is common sense.

Yes, I agree he's unprofessional as sh*t, but he's making progress in a lot of in the areas that truly matter to people trying to take care of their families. All the liberal social ideals will naturally follow in a good economy. In a crap economy, nobody cares about liberal social ideals - they just want to make sure they can feed their families. It's all right in front of them, but Dems seem to get in their own way...hell, look at AOC and


Iíll be the first to admit my debatable skills in politics is lacking. On that note....Iíll try to amuse....
what do you think is going to happen with all these tax cuts and no money coming back in and the national debt continuing to escalate to astronomical numbers? Do you assume that big business will be giving back?-surly not by taxes since that rate just got dropped. Which by the way, they hardly paid that 25 percent anyways. Amazon anyone? Do you think big businesses will contribute to with this monetary increase hiring more? Perhaps, but many complain that people arenít skilled enough in their fields to begin with. Continuing,I do know that the millionaire docs that I work for are just as shady as probably most millionaires that work in their fields. If you only knew the crap I knew about the ways they cheat the system. Thereís a reason health care costs are so much. And it doesnít just start with them. The insurance companies...my lord the insurance companies...Then you have the reps that charge 5,000 dollars for a 3/16th screw!! You could to the local hardware store and pick one up for 15 cents. Now, all these peoples are all wealthy, and all NOT contributing the patient and is escalating health care bill. Anyways, my gripe is that if you think big business is a good thing or itís savior I wouldnít get too excited. Look at Wís years and his ďcut taxesĒ approach and letting big businesses thrive. Inflation happened and the bubble burst. Careful what you wish for.

As for Trumpís returns, youíre telling me his taxes wonít show how indebted to Russia he really is? How crooked he really is? Heís mention it himself in many ways. He even said in the past he rather work with Russia because he gave him money and fostered his Trump towers golf courses etc. I would think as much as Republicans want safety for our country(stopping immigrants,defense spending) that they would want to make sure that Russia isnít raping our system with hacks. But I digress...this country is in good shape and after Carter and W years, this country I found can withstand a just about anything.
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  #53  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:46 PM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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[quote=coltssb;722726]
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Originally Posted by irishwavend View Post
Pretty sure Obama started the "Do whatever you want attitude" when he was picking and choosing what laws he wanted to enforce or how to justify it unconstitutionally...

As a tax person, I'll tell you this. Trump's tax returns won't tell you sh*t that is applicable to the Presidency, especially now that he has a resume of Presidential acts. I mean, his economy is smashing everything Democrats like Obama and his "economists" said couldn't be done. Why? Because Democrats love to give people scraps to ensure they stay in power. They know that if they grow the economy too quickly it will 1) undermine their liberal antagonism of corporations, etc, and 2) it will ultimately stop growing which is a political liability as the economy maximizes all of its potential. Democrats see that as a bad thing... Trump's economy is common sense.

Yes, I agree he's unprofessional as sh*t, but he's making progress in a lot of in the areas that truly matter to people trying to take care of their families. All the liberal social ideals will naturally follow in a good economy. In a crap economy, nobody cares about liberal social ideals - they just want to make sure they can feed their families. It's all right in front of them, but Dems seem to get in their own way...hell, look at AOC and


Iíll be the first to admit my debatable skills in politics is lacking. On that note....Iíll try to amuse....
what do you think is going to happen with all these tax cuts and no money coming back in and the national debt continuing to escalate to astronomical numbers? Do you assume that big business will be giving back?-surly not by taxes since that rate just got dropped. Which by the way, they hardly paid that 25 percent anyways. Amazon anyone? Do you think big businesses will contribute to with this monetary increase hiring more? Perhaps, but many complain that people arenít skilled enough in their fields to begin with. Continuing,I do know that the millionaire docs that I work for are just as shady as probably most millionaires that work in their fields. If you only knew the crap I knew about the ways they cheat the system. Thereís a reason health care costs are so much. And it doesnít just start with them. The insurance companies...my lord the insurance companies...Then you have the reps that charge 5,000 dollars for a 3/16th screw!! You could to the local hardware store and pick one up for 15 cents. Now, all these peoples are all wealthy, and all NOT contributing the patient and is escalating health care bill. Anyways, my gripe is that if you think big business is a good thing or itís savior I wouldnít get too excited. Look at Wís years and his ďcut taxesĒ approach and letting big businesses thrive. Inflation happened and the bubble burst. Careful what you wish for.

As for Trumpís returns, youíre telling me his taxes wonít show how indebted to Russia he really is? How crooked he really is? Heís mention it himself in many ways. He even said in the past he rather work with Russia because he gave him money and fostered his Trump towers golf courses etc. I would think as much as Republicans want safety for our country(stopping immigrants,defense spending) that they would want to make sure that Russia isnít raping our system with hacks. But I digress...this country is in good shape and after Carter and W years, this country I found can withstand a just about anything.
As much as I like tax cuts, I agree it's not enough. The government needs to cut spending across the board in significant ways. The problem is social benefit/entitlement programs, which make up the largest chunk of the budget by far, but won't be touched by either side in any meaningful way because it's political suicide. Once people get used to free stuff, you'll have a terrible time trying to wrestle it away again. This problem started decades ago when they began to raid Social Security, which was never intended to be a piggy bank to borrow from.
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  #54  
Old 05-10-2019, 03:40 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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[quote=jessemoore97;722737]
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Originally Posted by coltssb View Post

As much as I like tax cuts, I agree it's not enough. The government needs to cut spending across the board in significant ways. The problem is social benefit/entitlement programs, which make up the largest chunk of the budget by far, but won't be touched by either side in any meaningful way because it's political suicide. Once people get used to free stuff, you'll have a terrible time trying to wrestle it away again. This problem started decades ago when they began to raid Social Security, which was never intended to be a piggy bank to borrow from.
Baloney. Add context. All countries highest debt is related to social welfare. Yet other countries do not have the defense spending. Also, are you willing to give up your govt pension? Govt healthcare? Ready to join the rest of us with 401ks and high premium health savings accounts? Walk the talk.

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  #55  
Old 05-10-2019, 03:51 AM
coltssb coltssb is offline
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[quote=Jim2Dokes;722795]
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Originally Posted by jessemoore97 View Post

Baloney. Add context. All countries highest debt is related to social welfare. Yet other countries do not have the defense spending. Also, are you willing to give up your govt pension? Govt healthcare? Ready to join the rest of us with 401ks and high premium health savings accounts? Walk the talk.
Somehow that post got lumped into mine. Iíll let Jesse if he chooses to reply..
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  #56  
Old 05-10-2019, 04:48 AM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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[quote=Jim2Dokes;722795]
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Originally Posted by jessemoore97 View Post

Baloney. Add context. All countries highest debt is related to social welfare. Yet other countries do not have the defense spending. Also, are you willing to give up your govt pension? Govt healthcare? Ready to join the rest of us with 401ks and high premium health savings accounts? Walk the talk.
So cutting spending isn't a good thing, across the board as I mentioned? What countries are you refering to when you say defense spending? What defense spending are you against?

What is it about my pension or health care you are concerned with exactly?
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  #57  
Old 05-10-2019, 12:43 PM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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[quote=jessemoore97;722797]
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So cutting spending isn't a good thing, across the board as I mentioned? What countries are you refering to when you say defense spending? What defense spending are you against?

What is it about my pension or health care you are concerned with exactly?
Not when it proportionally targets the poor and working class. The fact you have a pension and healthcare, conservatives have been fighting against that for years, they argue it is an entitlement program. So if you are going to argue that we need to cut those, you can start with that one. How about we start taxing the rich for social security, it seems to me it is a program for poor people, paid by poor people. However, the rich get social security as well, yet only pay up to a very small amount of their income. Anyways, I am just making fun of your first stereotypical go to when talking about the debt. You are so like my uncle, ignoring that giant monopolies pay no taxes. We got off topic here back to the electoral college debate I will bow out now for this one. We could talk about the budget for 5 threads.
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  #58  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:36 PM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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[quote=Jim2Dokes;722799]
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Not when it proportionally targets the poor and working class. The fact you have a pension and healthcare, conservatives have been fighting against that for years, they argue it is an entitlement program. So if you are going to argue that we need to cut those, you can start with that one. How about we start taxing the rich for social security, it seems to me it is a program for poor people, paid by poor people. However, the rich get social security as well, yet only pay up to a very small amount of their income. Anyways, I am just making fun of your first stereotypical go to when talking about the debt. You are so like my uncle, ignoring that giant monopolies pay no taxes. We got off topic here back to the electoral college debate I will bow out now for this one. We could talk about the budget for 5 threads.
Pension and healthcare are benefits of many jobs. My father had both for 40 years at a private factory until he retired, now he collects his pension. I pay into my pension system as does my employer, just like every pension system. I dont qualify for social security or won't when i retire. I live in the city I work in, therefore my taxes pay for my pay and benefits, as well as all the teachers and public employees here.

My pension may not even be there when I retire. You understand that it just like social security goes towards paying beneficiaries who have already retired right? None of it is earmarked in an account specifically with my name on it like a 401k. With a pen stroke it can all go away for me and others. Our pension system for police and fire is very well managed, which is partly the reason its constantly in the crosshairs.

So social security is paid for by the poor and is to only benefit the poor? What defines those parameters? Does someone who paid in tbe bare minimum of credits to social security, allowed to draw benefits exceeding their contribution indefinitely?
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  #59  
Old 05-14-2019, 01:16 AM
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Take the financial benefit out of serving in politics at all levels and you will find the money to finance social security and Medicare. Make our politicians fund their own retirement and healthcare. Problem solved. We won't need term limit reforms. After all, it's public SERVICE..... Just like volunteering at the senior center or the Association for the disabled , the homeless, environmental clean up, etc..... right?
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  #60  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:09 PM
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[quote=Jim2Dokes;722799]
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How about we start taxing the rich for social security, it seems to me it is a program for poor people, paid by poor people. However, the rich get social security as well, yet only pay up to a very small amount of their income.
Are you aware that the maximum annual level of Social Security benefits is around $34,000 regardless of what your previous income and contributions were?

Are you also aware that most "rich" people pay the maximum amount of FICA taxes? In fact, many of them will pay double if they are self employed and have to pay the employer portion as well.

Is your issue that FICA is not collected on salary earnings above the $132,900 cap?

I have two questions:

1) Exactly how much should someone who earns $1,000,000 per year pay in social security contributions if he or she is limited to getting $34,000 each year from it in retirement?

2) Exactly how much should someone who earns $5,000,000 per year pay in social security contributions if he or she is limited to getting $34,000 each year from it in retirement?

Last edited by jbrown_9999; 05-14-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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  #61  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:41 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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[quote=jbrown_9999;722825]
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Are you aware that the maximum annual level of Social Security benefits is around $34,000 regardless of what your previous income and contributions were?

Are you also aware that most "rich" people pay the maximum amount of FICA taxes? In fact, many of them will pay double if they are self employed and have to pay the employer portion as well.

Is your issue that FICA is not collected on salary earnings above the $132,900 cap?

I have two questions:

1) Exactly how much should someone who earns $1,000,000 per year pay in social security contributions if he or she is limited to getting $34,000 each year from it in retirement?

2) Exactly how much should someone who earns $5,000,000 per year pay in social security contributions if he or she is limited to getting $34,000 each year from it in retirement?
Thatís fine if you do not agree with my philosophy. Yes I believe someone making 5 mil should help the countries social benefit for the poor and elderly. Sorry if you feel differently. I donít get the logic that they should not have to because they donít get the return. You invest 5% on your income in a stable etf versus some with 5 mill a year. The advantages are ridiculous. And donít get me started on the ol make yourself a millionaire argument, that is so rare. Most peopleís new money is on the backs of ol money if you are making 5 mill a year.
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  #62  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:47 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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[quote=jessemoore97;722800]
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Pension and healthcare are benefits of many jobs. My father had both for 40 years at a private factory until he retired, now he collects his pension. I pay into my pension system as does my employer, just like every pension system. I dont qualify for social security or won't when i retire. I live in the city I work in, therefore my taxes pay for my pay and benefits, as well as all the teachers and public employees here.

My pension may not even be there when I retire. You understand that it just like social security goes towards paying beneficiaries who have already retired right? None of it is earmarked in an account specifically with my name on it like a 401k. With a pen stroke it can all go away for me and others. Our pension system for police and fire is very well managed, which is partly the reason its constantly in the crosshairs.

So social security is paid for by the poor and is to only benefit the poor? What defines those parameters? Does someone who paid in tbe bare minimum of credits to social security, allowed to draw benefits exceeding their contribution indefinitely?
Wrong. Not anymore. That was my argument. I agree pensions and healthcare should be benefits I was playing devils advocate because republicans have been railing against is for years. See Scott Walkers union laws as a perfect example. Your father only had those benefits because of unions and even if he was not apart of one his employer was forced to compete with union jobs to offer them. You are apart of a union. You have said that you would not want to privatize police and fire, maybe that does not work in your situation. We are already privatizing every prison, why not the police. Write those tickets for investors, bring in Blackwater, fire the non performers. The. They can merge with the prisons! Oh so much fun thinking about the ďfreeĒ libertarian world.
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  #63  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:42 AM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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[quote=Jim2Dokes;722829]
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Wrong. Not anymore. That was my argument. I agree pensions and healthcare should be benefits I was playing devils advocate because republicans have been railing against is for years. See Scott Walkers union laws as a perfect example. Your father only had those benefits because of unions and even if he was not apart of one his employer was forced to compete with union jobs to offer them. You are apart of a union. You have said that you would not want to privatize police and fire, maybe that does not work in your situation. We are already privatizing every prison, why not the police. Write those tickets for investors, bring in Blackwater, fire the non performers. The. They can merge with the prisons! Oh so much fun thinking about the ďfreeĒ libertarian world.
My father belonged to the union. Then he got promoted to a foreman for thw last 20 or so years he worked there. He wasn't union backed as a foreman.

I don't have a lot to say about privatization of prisons, I believe all the ones here are still state controlled as i understand it. I have no problem discussing reforms to the justice system, that would fall under that I suppose. There is a big difference between privatization of prisons and the police though. Emergency services like fire and police specifically should not be viewed as revenue generators. Thats barely the tip of the iceberg for reasons against privatization. Gangs of New York illustrated a very real example of private fire protection and what could happen.
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  #64  
Old 05-17-2019, 03:24 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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[quote=jessemoore97;722832]
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My father belonged to the union. Then he got promoted to a foreman for thw last 20 or so years he worked there. He wasn't union backed as a foreman.

I don't have a lot to say about privatization of prisons, I believe all the ones here are still state controlled as i understand it. I have no problem discussing reforms to the justice system, that would fall under that I suppose. There is a big difference between privatization of prisons and the police though. Emergency services like fire and police specifically should not be viewed as revenue generators. Thats barely the tip of the iceberg for reasons against privatization. Gangs of New York illustrated a very real example of private fire protection and what could happen.
Ambulance services are privatized
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  #65  
Old 05-17-2019, 04:01 AM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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[quote=Jim2Dokes;722857]
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Ambulance services are privatized
Ours are and most probably are too. However they aren't strictly used as emergency responders. Ours routinely transport patients from one medical facility to another for procedures one hospital may not offer among other things. You can also refuse transport by an ambulance or treatment by them. It happens pretty often. Ours get paid on the basis or transports.
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  #66  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:32 AM
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Our pension fund here in Indiana has had great governance and that is why we have a surplus. So much so that the Gov't has been trying to get their hands on it for years. This year they finally got our pension leadership to agree that they can dip into it IF there's a State emergency. I AM SO PISSED! You just know this is just the beginning of them getting their greedy hands on my pension. I have NO clue WHAT the damn State pension leadership is thinking! Also, our city and county paramedics are city funded. Very few private ambulance services here.
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  #67  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:03 AM
jessemoore97 jessemoore97 is offline
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Our pension fund here in Indiana has had great governance and that is why we have a surplus. So much so that the Gov't has been trying to get their hands on it for years. This year they finally got our pension leadership to agree that they can dip into it IF there's a State emergency. I AM SO PISSED! You just know this is just the beginning of them getting their greedy hands on my pension. I have NO clue WHAT the damn State pension leadership is thinking! Also, our city and county paramedics are city funded. Very few private ambulance services here.
Yea that sucks Speedy. I can't believe your board caved like that allowing the state a toe hold into the fund. After all whats going to define an "emergency", fairly subjective definition. Knowing how government works I'd expect an "emergency" to pop up pretty soon, and from then on you can probably set your calendar to them.
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Old Yesterday, 04:40 AM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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Yea that sucks Speedy. I can't believe your board caved like that allowing the state a toe hold into the fund. After all whats going to define an "emergency", fairly subjective definition. Knowing how government works I'd expect an "emergency" to pop up pretty soon, and from then on you can probably set your calendar to them.
Board? That socialist board! You speak in two tounges my friend. You don’t also hold that GOP govt in Indiana a bit responsible?

From the internet:

Police officers started to form unions in the early 1900s in conjunction with the labor movement that was sparked by the industrial revolution.

The earliest example of why police officers started to form unions is commonly associated with the Boston Police Department.

Boston police officers did not receive pay increases from 1898 through 1913. In addition, they were often required to work 72 hours per week and pay for their own uniforms.

In 1919, Boston cops unionized affiliated with the American Federation of Labor (AFL).

After unionizing, 17 of the union leaders were suspended, which led to the majority of Boston’s police officers walking off the job. Violence in the city ensued after the walkout and, needless to say, after this occurred police officers were prevented from striking.

Despite this incident police officers would continue to unionize and, as a result, most police officers belong to some sort of collective bargaining unit today.

Our younger officers simply may not know that if it were not for unionization, they would not enjoy many of the benefits (wages, rights and working conditions) they enjoy today.

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  #69  
Old Today, 12:44 AM
jbrown_9999 jbrown_9999 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim2Dokes View Post
Board? That socialist board! You speak in two tounges my friend. You donít also hold that GOP govt in Indiana a bit responsible?

From the internet:

Police officers started to form unions in the early 1900s in conjunction with the labor movement that was sparked by the industrial revolution.

The earliest example of why police officers started to form unions is commonly associated with the Boston Police Department.

Boston police officers did not receive pay increases from 1898 through 1913. In addition, they were often required to work 72 hours per week and pay for their own uniforms.

In 1919, Boston cops unionized affiliated with the American Federation of Labor (AFL).

After unionizing, 17 of the union leaders were suspended, which led to the majority of Bostonís police officers walking off the job. Violence in the city ensued after the walkout and, needless to say, after this occurred police officers were prevented from striking.

Despite this incident police officers would continue to unionize and, as a result, most police officers belong to some sort of collective bargaining unit today.

Our younger officers simply may not know that if it were not for unionization, they would not enjoy many of the benefits (wages, rights and working conditions) they enjoy today.
I never understood why government workers belong to unions. Unions were formed to protect workers from selfish "evil" capitalistic owners who took advantage of their employees. Since government workers work for a benevolent employer that has their best interests at heart, is the only reason that they belong to a union a money grab to force taxpayers to overpay for their services? How come it seems that democratically controlled states have the highest percent of unionized government workers? Do democratically controlled states treat their workers worse than republican controlled states?
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