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  #26  
Old 12-12-2019, 03:56 AM
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  #27  
Old 12-12-2019, 04:06 AM
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  #28  
Old 12-12-2019, 12:14 PM
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  #29  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ELDER06 View Post
Thatís bc you live in an era that is long gone. Schools have become football factories and the academic integrity of the avg player has plummeted. Why would a kid with the equivalent of a 10th grade education want to come to ND to work his azz off in the classroom when he can do nothing but focus on football at Bama, Clemson, or OSU? Youíre really oblivious to the modern world of college athletics
I'm not oblivious. I'm stating where I think ND will be in 25 years based on your point about the modern era. Nothing short of minor league football will save this descent.
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  #30  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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And nowhere in that quote was it stated winning a NC isnít a priority. Youíre putting words in his mouth. Pull your head out of your azz.
Pull my head out of my azz? Pull your head out of your azz. They aren't going to win a NC. There is no savior coach coming (why would he?) and the restrictions will remain.
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  #31  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:29 PM
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Do you think that schools such as Alabama, Ohio St, etc. were not "football factories" back in the 60's, 70's, and 80's?
Of course there were. You can add USC to that list. However, there were two different factors working back then that made ND still elite back then. Hesburgh wanted to integrate ND football and the south was slow (particularly in the 60's) to do that. Secondly, there were players from Ara to Holtz that were admitted who would never get into ND, because they depended on football revenue in a way that the do not today. This ended with Holtz and has been the operating procedure since. The other interesting factor in all this is going to be student interest. For example, I have season basketball tickets and this new ND student has no interest in the men's basketball program. It will be interesting to see if the student interest and participation declines in football as well as ND makes its transition closer and closer to Stanford and Northwestern. I see it as inevitable. Nothing short of a NFL minor league will stop it.

Last edited by Frankus; 12-12-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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  #32  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:37 PM
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The only good that came out of what Jenkins said was they didn't offer Kelly an extension.
Everybody knows that ND doesn't care to win a NC, but to announce to every post-Kelly coaching candidate that they're going to be working with one hand tied behind their back cements that nothing is going to change and is going to minimize the job candidates to coaches who do not want to be legends and will settle for the pay and the second rate status. The potential for the ND head coach becoming a revolving door job to coaches who want to be legends (see, I could even win at ND!) is there, which could be part of the spiraling down as coaching continuity ends. So, ND is in a quandary in their job search: How to get a good enough coach who does not want to be a legend? How to keep continuity? I suspect they will hype up the PR that Kelly is a legend and build a statue to him at the stadium as they cement ND 2.0 as a new standard. However, these may be remembered as peak years in ND 2.0 when ND 3.0 comes.

Last edited by Frankus; 12-12-2019 at 02:42 PM.
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  #33  
Old 12-12-2019, 02:53 PM
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Ok, boomer.
You're welcome. As perhaps the only board member who's Dad played for ND in one of its glory periods, graduated from ND, grew up in SB, lives there now, watched my first game in 1965 and almost every game since, I gladly accept your designation of who I am. I have seen all the ND changes first hand and see it changing still.

Now that we've got past that, use reason to explain why Notre Dame football is going to win a NC and that ND's status is not going to fall further. I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
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  #34  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:02 PM
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Iím in the delusional crowd and hope Iím right. I think that ND can still win in this day and age. Mainly, because I believe that good coaching makes up for any small lapses in talent. Weis was partially right when he talked about out scheming guys. The problem with todayís game is that everybody runs the same offense so that many teams donít need to prep weekly for each opponent. If we can get a bright mind whose willing to throw a spin on our offense, I think we could still win.
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  #35  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:15 PM
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Pull my head out of my azz? Pull your head out of your azz. They aren't going to win a NC. There is no savior coach coming (why would he?) and the restrictions will remain.
The only savior coaches (outside of a couple - maybe only one exception) are already in situations they wouldn't leave, so technically, that's basically correct.

However, I don't see why some of the hot, young names in coaching wouldn't entertain the thought of coming here....guys who, with a few key recruits, could at least win a playoff game along the way.

For all my frustrations with BK, he has made the gig look more appealing over the past few years, showing you can, even w/the extra challenges, come here and win 10+ games a year consecutively, and yes, even make the playoffs.

Last edited by NDNorm; 12-12-2019 at 05:33 PM.
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  #36  
Old 12-12-2019, 05:16 PM
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I’m in the delusional crowd and hope I’m right. I think that ND can still win in this day and age. Mainly, because I believe that good coaching makes up for any small lapses in talent. Weis was partially right when he talked about out scheming guys. The problem with today’s game is that everybody runs the same offense so that many teams don’t need to prep weekly for each opponent. If we can get a bright mind whose willing to throw a spin on our offense, I think we could still win.
I also think that ND can still win a NC. It will take an elite coach but perhaps other than Devine, it has always taken an elite coach to win a NC at ND.

Is ND that far away? No. If they can improve their recruiting to be Top 5 to Top 10 every year instead of Top 10 to Top 20, they should have close to Top 5 talent from a complete roster perspective.

Coaching-wise, a "slight" upgrade might allow them to actually beat a Top 10 team (or two).

Basically, ND is close despite Kelly not being an elite coach. Upgrade the coaching, upgrade the recruiting, ND should lose one less game a year which changes the probabilities of a NC.

Based on 2012 and 2018, Kelly has shown that he has a one in five chance of making the CFP. If ND could lose one less game a year, the chance of making the CFP probably goes up to 3 out of 5 years. Assuming a 10% of winning a NC if you make the CFP, eventually a NC will happen if ND is in the CFP 3 out of every 5 years.

Last edited by jbrown_9999; 12-12-2019 at 05:22 PM.
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  #37  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:03 PM
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So Kelly>Holtz.

Stay off the acid boomer.
If both had to coach in todayís environment, yes.
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  #38  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:17 PM
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If both had to coach in todayís environment, yes.
Is this supposed to be comedy?
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  #39  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:48 PM
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Is this supposed to be comedy?
Can you imagine Holtz having an offensive game plan like Kelly's NC State or this year's Michigan one? Can you imagine a Holtz offense where his offensive linemen continually jump offside and it doesn't get any better? Can you imagine, even against this crap schedule, being ranked 47th in Punt Returns and 105th in kickoff returns. Holtz would kick the crap out of Kelly if they both had the same players. It would be like ND-FSU 1993. The difference between finesse and power.
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  #40  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ELDER06 View Post
If both had to coach in todayís environment, yes.
You can have your Brian "my job is not to motivate the team" Kelly.

I would take Lou "Save Jimmy Johnson for me" Holtz in a heartbeat.
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  #41  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:00 PM
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Iím in the delusional crowd and hope Iím right. I think that ND can still win in this day and age. Mainly, because I believe that good coaching makes up for any small lapses in talent. Weis was partially right when he talked about out scheming guys. The problem with todayís game is that everybody runs the same offense so that many teams donít need to prep weekly for each opponent. If we can get a bright mind whose willing to throw a spin on our offense, I think we could still win.
If there's a bright jewel out there who can bring in an unstoppable, revolutionary offense, why would he come to ND? It's like the old myth of ND is fogging people's brains. Modern football is a marketplace, where capitalist rules apply. The best and the brightest are going to be attracted to the best jobs. Sadly, that's not Notre Dame. If ND wants the best, they better pay WAY more than Alabama/LSU/OSU etc. That's the only way they'll get somebody to risk their career and their legacy, and there's no guarantee that the elite program's won't match the offer in the salary arms race anyway.
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  #42  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:11 PM
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Can you imagine Holtz having an offensive game plan like Kelly's NC State or this year's Michigan one? Can you imagine a Holtz offense where his offensive linemen continually jump offside and it doesn't get any better? Can you imagine, even against this crap schedule, being ranked 47th in Punt Returns and 105th in kickoff returns. Holtz would kick the crap out of Kelly if they both had the same players. It would be like ND-FSU 1993. The difference between finesse and power.
lol....I know. I lived the Lou years, so knowing both coaches the way I do....no, can't imagine any of that.
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  #43  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:30 PM
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Not excuses, those are massive constraints. You purposefully ignoring them is delusional. Lou wouldnít win s**t in todayís game. He flopped worse at Scar than Spurrier.
You do realize Lou took over a 1-10 S Carolina team. Far from what Kelly took over from ND when he arrived at ND. Lou was also SEC coach of the year a year after he took over for S Carolina. Quite a feat for S Carolina program. But he couldnít sustain it. But what can you expect from a 64 year old coach trying to rebuild a terrible program. In 6 years from now, do you actually think Kelly would do any better of a job coaching a team like Kansas than Lou did at S Carolina? Very doubtful.
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  #44  
Old 12-12-2019, 08:49 PM
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Is anyone really surprised by the comments? Iím not. Kelly has done an admirable job, look at where we were from 2000-2010 to where we are now. This place is now attractive to all coaches as a destination. If Kelly has proven he can get us there, a big name is all we need to actually win the big game.

I will day ten years is long enough to know getting there is the best he will do. Great foundation he built but now he needs to move on so we can take the next step in the progression.
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  #45  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:00 PM
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Is anyone really surprised by the comments? Iím not. Kelly has done an admirable job, look at where we were from 2000-2010 to where we are now. This place is now attractive to all coaches as a destination. If Kelly has proven he can get us there, a big name is all we need to actually win the big game.

I will day ten years is long enough to know getting there is the best he will do. Great foundation he built but now he needs to move on so we can take the next step in the progression.
I think he'll be given the chance to finish the job like he did at Grand Valley and then he'll retire within 5 years. I think in Jenkins eyes he's earned it and its hard to argue.
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  #46  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:19 PM
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Is anyone really surprised by the comments? Iím not. Kelly has done an admirable job, look at where we were from 2000-2010 to where we are now. This place is now attractive to all coaches as a destination. If Kelly has proven he can get us there, a big name is all we need to actually win the big game.

I will day ten years is long enough to know getting there is the best he will do. Great foundation he built but now he needs to move on so we can take the next step in the progression.
I disagree with this. Weis went 19-6 and went to two major bowls. Kelly went 22-3 and is playing a 5 loss team in a crap bowl. The perception that this is a better job is iffy imo. Our prestige is less and the market is showing it. We are tied into one of the weakest conferences and locked out of a major showcase at the end of the season. Who would want to go 10-2 and be rewarded with a low end bowl against a 5 loss team?
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  #47  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:29 PM
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Is anyone really surprised by the comments? Iím not. Kelly has done an admirable job, look at where we were from 2000-2010 to where we are now. This place is now attractive to all coaches as a destination. If Kelly has proven he can get us there, a big name is all we need to actually win the big game.

I will day ten years is long enough to know getting there is the best he will do. Great foundation he built but now he needs to move on so we can take the next step in the progression.
I disagree with this. Weis went 19-6 and went to two major bowls. Kelly went 22-3 and is playing a 5 loss team in a crap bowl. The perception that this is a better job than when Weis had it is iffy imo. Our prestige is less and the market is showing it. We are tied into one of the weakest conferences and locked out of a major showcase at the end of the season. And from a fan's perspective, Weis played 9 ranked teams at the end of the year, 5 who ended up in the Top 5. Kelly will have played 7 ranked teams by seasons end during these two years , with only one Top 5 opponent. I wish I was wrong about this, but we're at the point where even an undefeated ND team will be looked at suspiciously by the CFB Playoff committee if these schedules keep being so weak. We have been crushed so many times by being overrated that it's a big challenge to convince anybody we're legitimately elite.
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  #48  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:32 PM
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I disagree with this. Weis went 19-6 and went to two major bowls. Kelly went 22-3 and is playing a 5 loss team in a crap bowl. The perception that this is a better job than when Weis had it is iffy imo. Our prestige is less and the market is showing it. We are tied into one of the weakest conferences and locked out of a major showcase at the end of the season. And from a fan's perspective, Weis played 9 ranked teams at the end of the year, 5 who ended up in the Top 5. Kelly will have played 7 ranked teams by seasons end during these two years , with only one Top 5 opponent. I wish I was wrong about this, but we're at the point where even an undefeated ND team will be looked at suspiciously by the CFB Playoff committee if these schedules keep being so weak. We have been crushed so many times by being overrated that it's a big challenge to convince anybody we're legitimately elite.
Don't worry about schedules. Clemson and Ohio St are on the horizon in 2020 and 2022 so ND will make the CFP easily after Kelly crushes them...
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  #49  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:41 PM
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I disagree with this. Weis went 19-6 and went to two major bowls. Kelly went 22-3 and is playing a 5 loss team in a crap bowl. The perception that this is a better job is iffy imo. Our prestige is less and the market is showing it. We are tied into one of the weakest conferences and locked out of a major showcase at the end of the season. Who would want to go 10-2 and be rewarded with a low end bowl against a 5 loss team?
And he got smoked in BCS bowls too. The fact is we played two quality opponents this year and lost to both. We deserve an average bowl, albeit maybe something like the Gator or Citrus.

Kelly has gotten us to one national and one playoff. Weisí two BCS games canít hold a candle to that. If you donít think Kelly has elevated the program from Weisí time then you are living in some fantasy land.
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  #50  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:48 PM
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Thatís bc you live in an era that is long gone. Schools have become football factories and the academic integrity of the avg player has plummeted. Why would a kid with the equivalent of a 10th grade education want to come to ND to work his azz off in the classroom when he can do nothing but focus on football at Bama, Clemson, or OSU? Youíre really oblivious to the modern world of college athletics
You're extremely condescending when both when speaking to us here on this board, as well as when speaking about players in a sport you supposedly like (or at least I'd assume so since you have posted 4000+ times.) If the "world of college athletics" is such a cesspool and nobody at Alabama/Clemson/OSU could ever even pretend to be a ND student why do you watch? If ND is handicapping themselves to the extent you believe then what is truly the point? Do you believe Alums, fans and the team should pat themselves on the back and say "WELL AT LEAST WE GO TO SCHOOL!" while ignoring ND has vacated wins due to academic impropriety within the last 10 years, had more arrests than the previous coaches and had a student manager die due to negligence? Now I'm not blaming Kelly/The University for any of those things, but it's hard to hold the moral high ground with the decade ND has had.

I'd also like you to tell me exactly what the "constraints" are that ND is under compared to other schools. You can't just say "WELL OUR KIDS GO TO SCHOOL" while ignoring Clemson has a 75% graduation rate, or ignoring the fact that ND has offered over half of the top 30 players per 247. ND players need a slightly higher GPA/test scores out of high school, but it's most certainly not as high as you seem to think it is. The great players don't want to come because they want to win championships and be prepared for their future job in the NFL, and the schools that are beating ND are better at those things.
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