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  #1276  
Old 11-20-2020, 12:58 PM
soulpatch soulpatch is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
my question to those on the left is, at what point would you be willing to accept that maybe, just maybe, something actually did happen?
You're going to get answers here ranging from something like "I'll never accept anything bourne out of Trump b/c I have zero faith in him" to something like my response.. ...I would have bought into this if some combination of the following would have had a semblance of truth:
1) Biden didn't have multiple paths to victory that Trump would have to overcome
2) Claims of fraud were not routinely demonstrated to be overcome under the slightest whiff of scrutiny
3) People like Giuliani did not constitute the vanguard of these claims and base them on things like conjuring the spectre of Hugo Chavez
4) The process would have started with "hey, there is fraud! let's give it a look!" (wait a reasonable amount of time for independent process to play out) "Whoa, this election was fraudulent" instead of "I didn't lose the election" (wait conspicuously short amount of time) "There was fraud" (still waiting conspicuously large amount of time) "here is evidence that can withstand reasonable scrutiny"
5) It wouldn't require a conspiracy across multiple interests, states, parties and organizations to all play out without anyone catching on to it
6) They had made similar claims in prior elections (elections which were largely similar to this one in terms of irregularities and general percentages)
7) The Trump administration (and its loyalists) were not systematically purging anyone that questions their version of events
There are more reasons, but I'm growing weary of seeing lazy accusations thrown up, Trump'ers saying "well, that could be true" while not lifting a finger and me being left to then track down answers

Last edited by soulpatch; 11-20-2020 at 02:15 PM.
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  #1277  
Old 11-20-2020, 01:00 PM
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As a side not.... yíall have seen the Democrats. Do you seriously think theyíre organized enough to do massive fraud? They canít get their act together in any way. Thatís why they didnít do well down-ballot. The only reason it was different at the presidential level is that Trump turned so many people off, not that Biden turned everyone on.
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  #1278  
Old 11-20-2020, 01:08 PM
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Even Tucker Carlson is calling out Sidney Powell for spreading BS without proof.

This is a dark, dark path the GOP are wandering down. And they are doing this for Donald Trump? Grow a pair and toss him even if it fractures your base. He is not even a Republican!!
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  #1279  
Old 11-20-2020, 11:26 PM
ND_JACK ND_JACK is offline
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I was surprised how close some of those states ended up. I could be wrong but I thought I heard Biden won GA by 12,000 votes and PA by 69,000. If those are the correct numbers I guess I am more sympathetic to Trumps challenge.
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  #1280  
Old 11-21-2020, 01:15 AM
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Heís lost all challenges, or at least any significant cases.

Now heís calling state legislators in to try to convince them to disregard the votes and the court decisions.

How would that go over if it was literally ANY other president or even any candidate at any level?

Do people here think that ANY candidate should directly try to influence the people certifying election results?
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  #1281  
Old 11-21-2020, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Soko View Post
Even Tucker Carlson is calling out Sidney Powell for spreading BS without proof.

This is a dark, dark path the GOP are wandering down. And they are doing this for Donald Trump? Grow a pair and toss him even if it fractures your base. He is not even a Republican!!
Yeaaaa,,,, like a lawyer is going to give evidence to the media before it goes to court.
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  #1282  
Old 11-21-2020, 07:30 AM
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Yeaaaa,,,, like a lawyer is going to give evidence to the media before it goes to court.
They haven't given it to the courts either...

It's a sad joke. They have nothing other than tinfoil hats and unfortunately a large microphone. If you are trying to win the court of public appeal then yes, you do give your "evidence" to your friendly media and let them run with it. If you can't even do that then all you have is a creepy old man with hair dye running down his face ranting and raving about deep state plots to rule the world. It is genuinely insane.
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  #1283  
Old 11-21-2020, 01:25 PM
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This international plot, launched by George Soros, Cuba, China, Venezuela and Hugo Chavez....yeah that about covers all the usual suspects here. Of course George Soros, he's behind every nefarious democrat plot, Cuba - check, China - check, Venezuela? - well ok, check.

And Hugo Chavez, hasn't he been dead for the past 6-7 years? Can someone explain how he is able to exert such influence from beyond the grave? I always had the impression of him being a bit of a bumbler even when he was alive and kicking.
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  #1284  
Old 11-21-2020, 01:44 PM
Kelly Gruene Kelly Gruene is offline
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Even Tucker Carlson is calling out Sidney Powell for spreading BS without proof.

This is a dark, dark path the GOP are wandering down. And they are doing this for Donald Trump? Grow a pair and toss him even if it fractures your base. He is not even a Republican!!
It is time to see what Sidney has.

It seems to me that all Republicans are viewed as die-hard Trump supporters. Of course they’re not, but it seems like those on the left see it that way.
I suspect most Republicans are terrified at the prospects of the far left wing of the Democratic Party dominating the agenda and sending this country spiraling toward a Venezuela-like end. Biden by himself without Kamala would probably be okay. Add in Kamala and it’s a disaster in the making.

Those peaceful protestors screaming with megaphones into diners’ faces and throwing fire crackers on them will only grow more active if Biden does not succumb to their will. Kamala relies on those people and does not have the political capital to separate herself from them. She might say things like, gee, anyone who is violent should stop being violent, but she can’t address that group specifically. And Biden won’t.

Sure. Let every state become California.
If you haven’t visited downtown LA or San Francisco in the last couple of years you should really go. Sights, sounds, and smells that you’ll not forget. And not in a good way. That seems to be the Democratic dream.

Last edited by Kelly Gruene; 11-21-2020 at 01:47 PM.
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  #1285  
Old 11-21-2020, 04:49 PM
ELDER06 ELDER06 is offline
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I agree the Election is over. However, I find it funny the same people who spent 4 yrs talking about Russian interference in 2016, suddenly think claims of election fraud are outrageous.
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  #1286  
Old 11-21-2020, 04:50 PM
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Look, 5 years ago, our society wasn’t at each other’s throats. You didn’t have both extremes fighting each other at rallies.

That was under Obama and Biden. It wasn’t Venezuela, and it won’t become Venezuela. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring the US circa 2015.

Now look where we have all gotten under 4 years of Trump.

Why exactly is the prospect of Biden terrifying, but the status quo is preferable?

Honestly, it’s not like we don’t have a Biden sample to compare, and as a society, we were not on the brink of civil war, like we are now. If you are terrified of how life was in 2015, that seems unreasonable and hysterical.

I won’t suggest all Republicans are due-hard Trump people.... but either none of the Republican leaders have the moral strength to stand against him for fear of their own personal positions, or they are willing to go along with Trump’s damaging the US because they think the potential (and actual) damage is worth the rewards.

And as for Sidney Powell, I’m not sure why people have faith in her, but I agree... time to put up or shut up.
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  #1287  
Old 11-21-2020, 05:01 PM
ELDER06 ELDER06 is offline
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Look, 5 years ago, our society wasnít at each otherís throats. You didnít have both extremes fighting each other at rallies.

That was under Obama and Biden. It wasnít Venezuela, and it wonít become Venezuela. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring the US circa 2015.

Now look where we have all gotten under 4 years of Trump.

Why exactly is the prospect of Biden terrifying, but the status quo is preferable?

Honestly, itís not like we donít have a Biden sample to compare, and as a society, we were not on the brink of civil war, like we are now. If you are terrified of how life was in 2015, that seems unreasonable and hysterical.

I wonít suggest all Republicans are due-hard Trump people.... but either none of the Republican leaders have the moral strength to stand against him for fear of their own personal positions, or they are willing to go along with Trumpís damaging the US because they think the potential (and actual) damage is worth the rewards.

And as for Sidney Powell, Iím not sure why people have faith in her, but I agree... time to put up or shut up.
Weíre not on the brink of civil war, thatís QAnon bulls**t. We do have a problem with young leftists in this country. And Bidenís camp should be prepared for them bc theyíre not Biden supporters either.
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  #1288  
Old 11-21-2020, 05:18 PM
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We’re not on the brink of civil war, that’s QAnon bulls**t. We do have a problem with young leftists in this country. And Biden’s camp should be prepared for them bc they’re not Biden supporters either.
Democrats have a big issue with the far left. It's an ideology that will never, ever get traction. The down ballot failure at the polls should, but won't be, a wake up call. AOC etc.. still won't acknowledge the damage their outspoken, unfeasible plans do to centrists and the country in general.

Biden is a centre left politician with a voting record you can see. A good GOP candidate is a centre right candidate. Lurching too far in either direction is disaster for such a partisan society at present.

Last edited by Soko; 11-21-2020 at 08:53 PM.
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  #1289  
Old 11-21-2020, 06:27 PM
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QAnon bull$ó is the Trump game plan. And the Republican leaders are supporting and enabling him. And Republican voters chose those leaders. Thereís only so much distance you can put between a supporter and QAnon, unless the supporter has some independent reasons to believe the conspiracy theories that form the foundation of everything Trump is doing.
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  #1290  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:49 PM
Kelly Gruene Kelly Gruene is offline
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Look, 5 years ago, our society wasn’t at each other’s throats. You didn’t have both extremes fighting each other at rallies.

That was under Obama and Biden. It wasn’t Venezuela, and it won’t become Venezuela. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring the US circa 2015.

Now look where we have all gotten under 4 years of Trump.
I guess Republicans would say that we’ve had 4 years of one-sided media and 4 years of House investigations and 1 year of “peaceful protests”.

Anyone who doesn’t think the US could end up like Venezuela is ignoring the left wing of the Democratic Party circa 2020. And the left wing now occupies the Vice Presidency. Omar and Cortez weren’t in the House in 2015.

Again, Biden by himself would probably be okay. He forced himself into a corner when he said he’d pick a woman as VP. I believe Republicans in general have no problem with a woman or and African American as VP or President. But this particular choice has a long record of being waaay left. The left wing of the party pressed him into selecting Harris.
Watch for 4 years of government agencies and schools telling us how white people are and always have been the problem with America. A new narrative will be crammed down our throats, effectively creating a new form of censorship. Anyone who says anything against it will end up getting doxed. It’s coming.
Let’s look back at this conversation in 12 months and 24 months.

Last edited by Kelly Gruene; 11-21-2020 at 11:59 PM.
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  #1291  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:56 PM
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Deal. Weíll circle back.
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  #1292  
Old 11-22-2020, 06:01 AM
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Anyone who doesnít think the US could end up like Venezuela is ignoring the left wing of the Democratic Party circa 2020. And the left wing now occupies the Vice Presidency. Omar and Cortez werenít in the House in 2015.
Joe Biden just won the party primary and election. This just happened. This year. Both parties house extreme tendencies but voters still tend to vote along a centre left/right line.
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  #1293  
Old 11-22-2020, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
Anyone who doesn’t think the US could end up like Venezuela is ignoring the left wing of the Democratic Party circa 2020. And the left wing now occupies the Vice Presidency. Omar and Cortez weren’t in the House in 2015.

When was the last recession under a democratic president? I can name 4 republicans in the last 30 years. Are there other representatives that you are hiding in your closet about prior to 2015, Dennis Kucinich comes to mind as someone that may drive you under the bed. Idk your rep or really care 1 of 435. Anyways, name 1 hard right country outside of Saudi Arabia (which could be debatable, and very similar economic structure as Venezuela) that is successful. Every western country is left leaning and prosperous in normal times. Brazil is **** right now as well if we are discussing South America, very hard right. I just hope we don’t turn into Iran.... very hard right country. That’s what you sound like. Afghanistan, Iraq, hmm uhm Egypt? Hmm let’s see I hope we are not like Syria?

Clearly, I am being sarcastic, but when you are so scared of a few reps, which the left should be terrified of a few gop reps as well I am sure. It’s just laughable. Venezuela! Seriously. Germany! Bam win! Probably the best well run country out there. It’s just a ridiculous argument dude.

Last edited by Jim2Dokes; 11-22-2020 at 07:18 AM.
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  #1294  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:39 AM
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Iím not a legal expert, but at which point does the Sidney Powell get some charges if all she is saying is bullshit? Also, letís keep in mind the obvious corruption here, she is Michale Flynnís lawyer as well. Rudy and Bannon are charged with felonies, this is all a quid pro for pardons and book sales it appears.
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  #1295  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
It is time to see what Sidney has.

It seems to me that all Republicans are viewed as die-hard Trump supporters. Of course theyíre not, but it seems like those on the left see it that way.
I suspect most Republicans are terrified at the prospects of the far left wing of the Democratic Party dominating the agenda and sending this country spiraling toward a Venezuela-like end.
Biden by himself without Kamala would probably be okay. Add in Kamala and itís a disaster in the making.

Those peaceful protestors screaming with megaphones into dinersí faces and throwing fire crackers on them will only grow more active if Biden does not succumb to their will. Kamala relies on those people and does not have the political capital to separate herself from them. She might say things like, gee, anyone who is violent should stop being violent, but she canít address that group specifically. And Biden wonít.

Sure. Let every state become California.
If you havenít visited downtown LA or San Francisco in the last couple of years you should really go. Sights, sounds, and smells that youíll not forget. And not in a good way. That seems to be the Democratic dream.
Kelly, I can see what you're saying, but it can be very easily turned around and be just as plausible:

It seems to me that all Democrats are viewed as die-hard AOC/etc supporters. Of course theyíre not, but it seems like those on the right see it that way.
I suspect most Democrats are terrified at the prospects of the far right wing of the Republican Party dominating the agenda and sending this country spiraling toward an authoritarian-like end. Cheers.
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  #1296  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:49 PM
Kelly Gruene Kelly Gruene is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
Anyone who doesn’t think the US could end up like Venezuela is ignoring the left wing of the Democratic Party circa 2020. And the left wing now occupies the Vice Presidency. Omar and Cortez weren’t in the House in 2015.

When was the last recession under a democratic president? I can name 4 republicans in the last 30 years. Are there other representatives that you are hiding in your closet about prior to 2015, Dennis Kucinich comes to mind as someone that may drive you under the bed. Idk your rep or really care 1 of 435. Anyways, name 1 hard right country outside of Saudi Arabia (which could be debatable, and very similar economic structure as Venezuela) that is successful. Every western country is left leaning and prosperous in normal times. Brazil is **** right now as well if we are discussing South America, very hard right. I just hope we don’t turn into Iran.... very hard right country. That’s what you sound like. Afghanistan, Iraq, hmm uhm Egypt? Hmm let’s see I hope we are not like Syria?

Clearly, I am being sarcastic, but when you are so scared of a few reps, which the left should be terrified of a few gop reps as well I am sure. It’s just laughable. Venezuela! Seriously. Germany! Bam win! Probably the best well run country out there. It’s just a ridiculous argument dude.

Good grief. That’s pretty much all I can say.

But since you’ve baited me...
Of course, and as I’ve stated previously, the US can never turn into a country dominated by one religion, like the countries you listed above. Not good examples.

Germany is certainly a nice country. Two dominant political
parties and three others that play a significant role in forming coalitions. The US doesn’t have that. The US also spends billions and billions of dollars there to keep the Russians away. In the US the left screams how terrible it is that the current president is trying to make Germany become more self sufficient militarily. Spend 2% of GDP on the military, as agreed to, and let the US focus resources elsewhere. But Germany doesn’t want to do that so they can continue to spend money on their social structure. Fair enough. It looks pretty good from the outside. Wonder how it would look when Russia cuts off the gas and sends in the tanks. But really, there’s too much to talk about regarding Germany. You brought it up and it’s a good example in many ways, but there’s just too much there to go deeply in one response.

The leftist agenda leads to the California outcome. Certainly CA has a large economy and incredible natural beauty. Redwoods. Sea lions. 60 degrees. Surf. Lovely.
Most states don’t have that type of climate or natural beauty.
If you’re wealthy, it’s a wonderful place to live.
It’s just not financial sustainable. It will implode without federal support. The debt obligation is immense, people living in the streets everywhere, the smell of urine permeates the big city downtown districts, and the place keeps burning.
Blame climate change and white supremacy all you want, but that’s not going to change the outcome.
Maybe electing some republicans could make CA great again. MCAGA. I think I’m onto something.

I am entertained by your incessant references to hiding under a bed. It reminds me of a warm safe place that as a child I’d hide. And pray for the thunder and the rain to quietly pass me by.

Last edited by Kelly Gruene; 11-22-2020 at 01:07 PM.
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  #1297  
Old 11-22-2020, 01:41 PM
Jim2Dokes Jim2Dokes is offline
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Good grief. That’s pretty much all I can say.

But since you’ve baited me...
Of course, and as I’ve stated previously, the US can never turn into a country dominated by one religion, like the countries you listed above. Not good examples.

Germany is certainly a nice country. Two dominant political
parties and three others that play a significant role in forming coalitions. The US doesn’t have that. The US also spends billions and billions of dollars there to keep the Russians away. In the US the left screams how terrible it is that the current president is trying to make Germany become more self sufficient militarily. Spend 2% of GDP on the military, as agreed to, and let the US focus resources elsewhere. But Germany doesn’t want to do that so they can continue to spend money on their social structure. Fair enough. It looks pretty good from the outside. Wonder how it would look when Russia cuts off the gas and sends in the tanks. But really, there’s too much to talk about regarding Germany. You brought it up and it’s a good example in many ways, but there’s just too much there to go deeply in one response.

The leftist agenda leads to the California outcome. Certainly CA has a large economy and incredible natural beauty. Redwoods. Sea lions. 60 degrees. Surf. Lovely.
Most states don’t have that type of climate or natural beauty.
If you’re wealthy, it’s a wonderful place to live.
It’s just not financial sustainable. It will implode without federal support. The debt obligation is immense, people living in the streets everywhere, the smell of urine permeates the big city downtown districts, and the place keeps burning.
Blame climate change and white supremacy all you want, but that’s not going to change the outcome.
Maybe electing some republicans could make CA great again. MCAGA. I think I’m onto something.

I am entertained by your incessant references to hiding under a bed. It reminds me of a warm safe place that as a child I’d hide. And pray for the thunder and the rain to quietly pass me by.
You can say “good grief”, you still did not refute my points. Your narrative is that a few representatives in states 2500 miles from you are the sole reason you post all day about how bad liberals are and just look at California etc. those reps you mention CONSTANTLY are not even in California by the way. Also, not that I care nor believe California is some well run machine, but you are wrong. California is one of the last states to rely on federal aide, and they are no further in debt than Texas per capita (it’s close, Texas may be a little less or something). Mostly republican states rely on the government. https://smartasset.com/taxes/states-...overnment-2020

Okay, you don’t like Germany. Canada, Scandavians countries (all of them) Netherlands, Japan.....ect ect. again name me 1 far right wing country that is successful. Lol and what conservative wins without holding the cross. Please, if you had it your way ( all republicans win always) this would be a 1 religion country.

Last edited by Jim2Dokes; 11-22-2020 at 02:05 PM.
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  #1298  
Old 11-22-2020, 01:54 PM
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Kelly, I can see what you're saying, but it can be very easily turned around and be just as plausible:

It seems to me that all Democrats are viewed as die-hard AOC/etc supporters. Of course theyíre not, but it seems like those on the right see it that way.
I suspect most Democrats are terrified at the prospects of the far right wing of the Republican Party dominating the agenda and sending this country spiraling toward an authoritarian-like end. Cheers.
Exactly, this is the game the far right plays. They throw out these boogeymen like APC or Antififa and never look in their own closet. Or, understand that the common democratic leaning individual does not give two shits about either. They are in constant doomsday mode, not seeing that their own people are flooding the basement. I am sure I would be terrified of some Idaho representatives if I cared or did research. I donít, they will never vote blue in my lifetime and the Idaho people are free to make that decision.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:29 PM
Kelly Gruene Kelly Gruene is offline
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You can say ďgood griefĒ, you still did not refute my points. Your narrative is that a few representatives in states 2500 miles from you are the sole reason you post all day about how bad liberals are and just look at California etc. those reps you mention CONSTANTLY are not even in California by the way. Also, not that I care nor believe California is some well run machine, but you are wrong. California is one of the last states to rely on federal aide, and they are no further in debt than Texas per capita (itís close, Texas may be a little less or something). Mostly republican states rely on the government. https://smartasset.com/taxes/states-...overnment-2020

Okay, you donít like Germany. Canada, Scandavians countries (all of them) Netherlands, Japan.....ect ect. again name me 1 far right wing country that is successful. Lol and what conservative wins without holding the cross. Please, if you had it your way ( all republicans win always) this would be a 1 religion country.
I love Germany. Donít make assume. When you do....

Please define far right wing country.
And again, youíre assuming I want a far right wing country. When you assume...

Iím all for balance. I think it is necessary for a country to succeed. I donít ever want one party controlling all branches of government. Whether at the federal or state level I think thatís important.

Using colorful language doesnít strengthen a discussion. I do actually care about representatives who live 2500 miles away from me. If they are voting on financial and judicial matters that affect me, it matters.

Europe would not be Europe without the US having parked troops there since 1945. We have paid for their security while they have evolved after the devastation of WWII. Can we leave now? Isnít it time that they figure out how to protect themselves from any Ďboogeymení that might do them harm? Once we do leave, I have confidence that they will all still maintain their social structures. Just on a modified scale.

Japan? Really? The most racist country in the planet. A great place to live if youíre Japanese.

I donít understand the Ďone religion countryí comment. Which religion? Again, the assumption level is off the charts. My personal friends cross political, racial, religious, and gender-identity boundaries.

Please make some more assumptions about me. Iím married to a democrat more liberal than you. Iíve voted democrat innumerable times. But, go ahead, pigeon hole me if you must. I can take it.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelly Gruene View Post
I love Germany. Don’t make assume. When you do....

Please define far right wing country.
And again, you’re assuming I want a far right wing country. When you assume...

I’m all for balance. I think it is necessary for a country to succeed. I don’t ever want one party controlling all branches of government. Whether at the federal or state level I think that’s important.

Using colorful language doesn’t strengthen a discussion. I do actually care about representatives who live 2500 miles away from me. If they are voting on financial and judicial matters that affect me, it matters.

Europe would not be Europe without the US having parked troops there since 1945. We have paid for their security while they have evolved after the devastation of WWII. Can we leave now? Isn’t it time that they figure out how to protect themselves from any ‘boogeymen’ that might do them harm? Once we do leave, I have confidence that they will all still maintain their social structures. Just on a modified scale.

Japan? Really? The most racist country in the planet. A great place to live if you’re Japanese.

I don’t understand the ‘one religion country’ comment. Which religion? Again, the assumption level is off the charts. My personal friends cross political, racial, religious, and gender-identity boundaries.

Please make some more assumptions about me. I’m married to a democrat more liberal than you. I’ve voted democrat innumerable times. But, go ahead, pigeon hole me if you must. I can take it.
You still have not refuted my points. You can cherry pick my posts, I am not going to allow you to play the victim when you are constantly making comments about AOC, socialism, antififa and then trying to balance card. Most republicans I know, don’t even know who antifia is. Your posts as Jimbo mentioned are clear indications whether you mean them or not that all left leaning folks support these things you mention and you always respond trying to pigeon hole me and others into these microaisms. So please don’t play the victim. Don’t assume your wife is more liberal than me either maybe she is I don’t care, just thought I would throw that in there since we are talking about
assumptions and all.

With all the hard right talking points, AOC, Venezuela, love for Sidney Powell, antififa bad, protests etc. my mind would blow if I saw you walk into a booth and vote for a democrat. uhh I forgot to add the biggest of them all the main stream media.

Last edited by Jim2Dokes; 11-22-2020 at 02:59 PM.
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